If you could, how would you re-balance CAS in Ground Battles?

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
2138

Well, from my experience: SPAA die by tanks mostly late game where people mass spawn them because the game is already unplayable in a tank due to CAS infestation and because they are low on SP.

In other words - their team is most likely getting pushed back and they also know that staying at spawn means an imminent death. These 2 coupled together means SPAAs become very vulnerable to enemy tanks going forward. And BTW these SPAAs go forward to help their own team’s tanks in a futile attempt to turn the tide. But the mode is configured in a way that “turning the tide” is highly unlikely. Essentialy dying oncen without scoring a kill or assist already ruins the entire game as player now has a lot lower chance of spawning CAS, which is especially painful in an uptier - all you needed was 1 action, now you have to kill 2-3 guys.
This means that team taking losses early on is basically destined to lose. I have been in a scenariore where I spawned a tank was unlucky to get smacked by Su-152 with my shell magically curving towards some impenetrable spot every time, I respawn, drive out of spawn, I get CASd, it’s game over already for me within 2,5 minutes.

But I digress. The point is - when the game is not being lost YET, so when SPAA can actually hunt planes, it gets slaughtered by planes anyway. I kill a few SPAA for every time I die to one in a goddamn Wyvern which is big, doesn’t turn, bleeds speed like crazy and is NOT good at taking damage, 1 14,5mm soviet godhammer hit will cripple it or kill it. Yet I kill SPAAs in good numbers unless there are multiple around the same area. Then I will most likely die, but it also usually means most of the map is unprotected as SPAAs can be ignored from outside 1000m range most of the time, especially if you follow the dive-pull up routine, which surprisingly makes you insanely hard to hit as your speed is constantly changing.

2 Likes
2140

Players like you keep insisting it’s skill when maybe, just maybe, it’s a knife vs a gun type of situation.

Have you ever considered that?

3 Likes
2141

A team that only (or primarily) deploys SPAAs so late as that has already lost the match and probably due to far more than just enemy aircraft action too.

Spoiler

Let’s remember that caps/tickets control the progress of a match whereas kills can only move the needle 100/kill.

As the latter is the only means aircraft with which can influence tickets, their direct effect is limited…an aircraft relies on allied GFs to take cap which really move things along.

As it stands, it’s generally best for a team to have some anti-aircraft means (whether SPAA or defending fighter) by no later than the second spawn. With some swing role SPAAs (40mm armed vehicles come to mind), they can often be effective first spawns.

All of this really comes down to how the vehicles are used rather than anything specific about them.

I’m well aware of the viewpoint you’re expressing–but I don’t necessarily buy into it (individual situations vary).

I don’t think the 'gun versus knife" analogy really fits. Even if we accept what I’d say is a flawed comparison, it doesn’t really say what you seem to imply it does (the suggestion that guns are all around better).

There’s a reason why going into combat with a rifle, a pistol and a knife is typical:in many scenarios, a knife is at least as effective than a gun, if not more so

If you’re at fist fighting range, you don’t want to be swinging around a long gun or perhaps even a pistol…there are situations where a knife simply does the job as well as/better than a firearm. A good hit with one can be just as deadly too.

Between their measly SP costs and capture capabilities, SPAAs have their own merits to boast to encourage usage.

2142

Knife is only effective if you’re going against unarmed enemy or enemy with holstered weapons and the range is v. short. Your comment about knife is extremely detached from reality.

But it’s kinda like that in WT. SPAA may work vs IL-2 after IL-2 slows down to 300km/h.
May be good vs Duck, Me-410, Bf-110 which compresses hard at 550. It’ll be OK vs bombers.

But vs properly armed planes with decentnperformance SPAA is basically guaranteed to die. You can stay at spawn and be outnof range or move forward and get slapped by combined tank and plane assault.
SPAA works when it’s not outnumbered by planes. When it’s not spotted and enemy is not some A-hole spamming .50 cals from 1200m away or sniping you in a vertical dive in Yak-9K. In other words - counting on SPAA dealing with planes is naive. And pretty often SPAA doesn’t even have anything to shoot at. So you’re just making your team weaker and losing your chance at spawning plane ypurself as f.e. Wirbel only works vs tanks straight from the side and below 100m. If you see the front of T-34 or M4 you’re shafted and same applies to 37mm ones. Very fun. But even US 40mm solid shot is useless as it barely deals any damage.

1 Like
2143

The principle that there are merits and scenarios for knives is what I was expressing.

As I said, it’s typical for fighters to carry a rifle, pistol and knife for that reason.

SPAAs are one of two options on the table…there are others and each has their own merits. For instance: SPAAs have lower costs and capture capability.

The choice is to the players.

The anti-aircraft capability is valuable as a guard on the aerial flank–but it is true aircraft are often scarce.

Absent the implementation of the Fighters First concept, using SPAAs as a first spawn doesn’t deny aircraft usage.

As for the Yak-9K, I’ve already expressed my disapproval about it above.

2144

No, they carry knife because of general utility of a cutting tool. The utility as a weapon as lower than a big stick anyway.
You should really come back to reality.

The principle is - knife has NO advantage, but it can be used as a back up weapon to a rifle, pistol, rock and a big stick. Hell yeah. This indeed makes it similar to SPAA in usefullness.

They are the “I’m desperate and have no SP” kind of option.

There’s no choice, plane is always better, but people sometimes lack SP.

2145

I don’t care to bog down or bloat the thread with this topic further, but the suggestion that knives are only carried in combat for ‘general utility’ is bizarre and, frankly, naive.

There are combat situations where knives can be just as effective as firearms at ‘neutralizing’ a target if necessary…and that’s why they’re carried (likewise for bayonets). That’s really all there is to it.

Actually, knives have a variety of advantages including: suitability in close quarters, a lack of reliance on ammunition, stealth (silence) and simplicity…just to name a few general traits.

All of these are aspects that weigh in on the merits and viability of a given weapon, whether it’s a firearm, vehicle or “tool” as you say.

SPAAs’ lower costs and, critically, zone capture ability in WT give them advantages over aircraft, whether recognized or not.

Not necessarily. @JuicyKuuuuki has certainly honed the matter…and he rarely seems to be desperate or lacking SP when he decides to mow down the enemy team.

To circle back to this point, which I overlooked earlier:

This is a very peculiar take…40mm shells are rather potent against most of what they see around their debut BRs (3.X-5.X).

When I’m keen to engage in the swing role aspect with my M19 or M42, it’s often as my first spawn when I have plenty of SP to work with. Because of how the 40mm shells work, I can often take out multiple enemies while awaiting enemy aircraft. (When the M42 was 6.7, I used to sneak around the battlefield to pick off enemies including Tiger IIs too.)

There’s no rule that says you have to use SPAAs only when desperate and poor. That’s more of a misconception about how/when SPAAs are/should be used.

When you have enemies in the air to counter but wish to retain the ability to interact with the capture points, SPAAs are the superior option because they enable you to do both. (SP doesn’t really weigh in on this…but SPAAs maintain their advantage on this here too.)

That scenario is extremely common in WT, so…yeah. The underestimation of SPAA has always struck me as strange…but that’s the reality of its perception here: a much rawer reception than it deserves generally.

2146

Knives are (generally) a weapon of last resort - when ammo for your more powerful / ranged weapons is depleted. You think the average soldier is turning to his knife before the assault rifle?

But you missed my point entirely. It’s a balance of power thing.

1 Like
2147

Nope, that’s not what I said at all. As I stated previously: “in many scenarios” it becomes the weapon of choice and there can be a variety of reasons for this, though I don’t think here is really the place to detail this.

As I said, I find that whole analogy flawed and a bit goofy…and this trouble others seem to have with grasping it certainly seems to validate my skepticism about it.

Given the varied results and yields players have put forward (ex. @JuicyKuuuuki versus others’), I think your ‘balance of power’ framing is more subjective than you think. While you are entitled to your opinion, it’s still a matter of your perception rather than an outright fact.

2148

Have to say, I am not at all surprised you can’t even accept a simple analogy if it somehow contradicts your position.

Have a good day.

2149

I’m not sure how you’d think the analogy ‘contradicts’ my position (the framing actually validates it, as I explained). My critique of the analogy is that it’s an imperfect, problematic way to have this discussion.

If that makes you upset, sorry.

2150

I like the dual 14.5 Soviet one at low BR, it is fun to use against vehicles and aircraft

2151

image
image1912×1064 303 KB

I just now realized this new feature they added when I was away. Can swap maps for air and ground now which was a feature I wish listed before. Now if we can scout planes too at a detection radius of 4km for ranks I to V and 10km for ranks VI to VIII, that would be helpful. Will make this air map a lot more useful as well as being able to keep up tracking multiple planes. Same way how scouting ground vehicles work.

2152

Well, same argument can be made for a banana. Plenty of soldiers carry a banana. I guess that’s a killing banana and people can die to banana just fine “if the circumstances are right”. All we have to do is create some super rare scenario and voila, bananas are just as good as firearms in that scenario where enemy soldier is allergic to banana or slips on a peel.

No way in hell somebody needs a cutting tool. Now go ask a soldier who was actually deployed how did they use a knife. Do knife fights happen? Yeah, 1 happened because lone soldier (big problem by itself!) got heavily wounded and couldn’t use a rifle (his hand got shot) and he had no pistol (another big problem) as non-US soldiers often don’t carry small arms. I guess by your logic they simply consider pistols inferior to knives.
While reality is, pistols are so rarely used most militaries consider them unnecessary weight.
Meanwhile pistol is orders of magnitude better weapon than a knife.
Your claim of “many scenarios” is absolutely made up. Is 1 “many”? And even in this one scenario the guy would be way better off (and still alive today :( ) with a pistol!

But SPAA and knife on a soldier is a good analogy. It has some utility, and it’s horrible as a weapon because everyone is armed with something with way superior range/way more versatile. Nobody uses a knife as a choice. People use a knife because they literally have no other option (no other weapon on them).
Of course SPAA is still relatively waaaay better than a knife as you can ambush soft targets and some plane users are dumb enough. But the fact you went for the most ineffective weapon carried by soldier (field spade is also way superior), and carried only because of being a cutting tool and used as a weapon when forced to (just like SPAA is only spawned because of low SP) is pretty damn telling.

Not a grenade, not a pistol, not a PDW, not a grenade launcher. A goddamn knife. That sums it up pretty good.

2153

I play Fw 190. It’s dogpoop nowadays. I guess if it works in my hands, it’s actually super good.
People like challenges. I can shoot down several planes per match in almost anything that has wings and guns. What does it prove other than me being wya above average in using planes? And I’m super bad at long range shooting and ground attack as I don’t need those in Air RB and I have problem hitting without knowing the range.
Also there are some good SPAAs that shoot at easier to hit planes. Just play Soviet.

Some people like the challenge. Average player in SPAA is just a free kill. Super good player in SPAA is still way less dangerous than a super good player in a plane.

SPAA can cap indeed. That’s one advantage over a plane, I’ll give you that. I’d go for a tank, cap, kill something and spawn a plane anyway.

1 Like
2154

Ahh, the old ONE SHOT Yak9! Impossible accuracy, never a shell waste and it’s Russian…funny that! In fact IL2, IL8 both Russian AND never miss, nothing like watching the REAL archive footage of chasing the shells/bullets into the target. Is there a theme here I wonder? Where IS the realism?

1 Like
2155

And then there’s TIS MA and that other attacker with several 45mm. Of course behind paywall because ROFL, please suffer, freeloader. TIS MA is still fairly maneuvrable, but at least a tiny bit easier to hit and can’t loop all day long so there’s that.

2156

Scenarios where a knife is more fitting than a firearm (a la a covert raid reliant on surprise, stealth, etc) are far more sensible than anything related to this absurdist banana talk.

That knife analogy has really proven itself lousy with all this straying into the weeds.

I never said anything on that topic, so you cannot contest anything about my logic on that.

The only thing even remotely related is that this knife analogy was a goofy, imperfect premise to start from.

Actually, what I said simply demonstrates a fuller understanding of the matter, not anything ‘made up.’

While you (incorrectly) presume a knife will always be an option of last resort or a choice made of desperation, I have disproved that by citing a counterexample (operations focused on stealth) that discredits that. Close quarters are another area where the knife is a preferred choice…nevermind your utility angle.

  • The knife analogy was not something I started

  • SPAAs are not ‘only’ spawned because of low SP

Without specifying the exact model and situation, this statement is too vague to really judge in any serious way.

Conditions and context matter as well as individuals’ preferences and skill levels varying. All of that matters to such calls.

All of that is–charitably–your opinion.

If I was being generous, I’d say your characterization paints the involved dynamics far too broadly. If I was being harsh, I’d say it’s too vague to be meaningful at all (you’d have to specific more things like BR range to even start pinning things down).

The reality of SPAA versus aircraft comparisons is that there are a ton of variations in how they interact with their surroundings and peers. Your latter statement in particular can be proven very untrue.

For instance: something like the L-62 can go on a slaughter at 3.X (and even higher, the 40mm shells bite) whereas many fighter aircraft of that range are clean (7mm MGs are still common and not all larger caliber weapons have decent pen) which leave them no serious means at attacking a whole set of enemies (such as armored vehicles)) and here player skill does not affect penetration values or loadout capabilities.

I own the TIS MA and will express my dubiousness about its maneuverability…for its size, I have my doubts.

As for the ‘paywall’ bit, that is not technically true–it was a vehicle obtained through an event originally. Now it is subject to the GJN Marketplace and all that comes with that.

While I understand your complaint and will freely tell you the game and its mechanics being what they are enhance accuracy for all, realism isn’t really as sturdy a ground to complain upon as you might think.

Few tanks during the war had third-person POV controls but that control method is standard here in spite of its ‘realistic liberty’ as you might call it.

2157

That’s pure fantasy on the same level as banana talk. Except people actually die to banana allergy way more often than soldiers use knives “for stealth”.
Your “example” is 100% made up from modern perspective. maybe during WW2 where people had super lousy flashlights or none, hearing loss and bolt action rifles and still it only happened to a few soldiers in a war where 20 milion soldiers died.

Close quarters is where rifle and pistol beat knife every time.

That’s why every house and trench clearing operation is done with rifles and grenades and on a super-rare ocasion pistol is used. Yeah, that’s because you can’t shoot somebody point blank…

…oh wait.

That’s a fact hence I score a ton of SPAA kills even in Fw 190 F8. It’s small so they can’t hit me. I hit them just fine from 900-1000m away using stealth belts.
And I’m a horrible shot vs ground targets.
SPAA is plane fodder. Some are good as tank destroyers, though and these are indeed fun.

Every event vehicle nowadays is behind a paywall, unless someone has extreme amounts of time to grind. Haven’t managed to grind anything other than BP vehicles since like 2015.

And remember, Il-2 is like what, 3.0. it can roflstomp tanks from 1200m away with these 23mm cannons. You can down it with SPAA if he doesn’t see you first. And that’s a big if.
7,62mm armed planes are not a norm beyond 2.3BR. wuite the contrary.

1 Like
2158

I’ve grown bored with the knife analogy, so I spoilered that portion for brevity…

Spoiler

I’m not sure why you believe knives are not in use…the only thing made-up here is this ‘100%’ talk, as that sort of absolutism is plainly unrealistic.

You are referring to larger groups clearing things where the risks of taking long guns into close quarters fights is reduced by the others’ ability to offer mutual protection. In a situation with fewer people (especially one) and such mutual protection doesn’t exist, the idea of relying upon a firearm (especially a long gun) is riskier and a knife may be preferable due to the ranges involved.

All that this back and forth is proving is the faults of the original knife analogy…it was always imperfect.

Considering that many SPAAs have closed tops roofs (T77E1/Coelian) or nearly so (Wirbelwind/Ostwinds), calling these things as ‘fodder’ remains your opinion and I’d argue it’s a stretch at that.

I don’t think of even my more open Dusters as ‘fodder’ (as I see it, that’s just defeatist thinking and encourages losses) despite their greater vulnerability to gunfire.

I cannot say I agree even though my time is limited by a typical work week and other obligations.

Spoiler

I haven’t had any problems with most of the events (such as the T-34-85 Partisan one that just finished) or the Warbond/Battle Pass ones. Even with a full schedule when I’ve decided to pursue them, I’d say they only take ~2-4 hrs/day for the 35k points task events, depending on how things go.

Generally speaking, many of the events can be knocked over as long as you have a strategy on how to do them in an efficient manner. (I say ‘many’ and not ‘most’ because while liked the crafting events’ basic concept…but not their concept or timings).

Given the problems associated with gun convergence at 1200m, that seems like a lofty figure. 800m is the highest setting and at 1200mm you’ll have to do some fancy aiming to place your shots…it’s certainly not optimized at that range.

I know I’ve also gunned down many IL-2s inside that range, even when being fired upon and also wounded too. Being attacked doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be killed (repairs being what they are for GFs also favor the SPAAs).

While other weapons like the 20mm cannons of things such as the A6Ms or Bf 109s are around by 3.X to support the 7mm MGs, those cannons often also lack anti-armor ability.