Like I remember once killing a Jumbo with the Pzgr round just by hitting its barrel from the side. And that doesn’t even have paper thin armor on top. APHE overpressure is ridiculous.
Not at 8.0 without a stabiliser. Most mediums are as mobile as you are while having a far better gun. But anyway, that’s not the topic of the thread. If we want to compare APHE effiiency at 8.0, let’s look at T-54 and others that do belong at this BR
Fair, lets not go further off topic. I will however reiterate - AP isnt as bad as people make it out to be.
Agreed, it’s decent and is even fun with an autoloader, but that’s it. While not being catastrophic, APHE is always better imo
I know Id take Somua or Centurion over M48 Patton tho.
Well yes, same, but because of the autoloader right ? Also it has good armour and mobility but that’s not related to gun performances.
Try playing the Foch to see how “real” AP struggles against APHE.
It can be worse than Conqueror, right?
Like, im sure damage wise it would be okay, but the reload time just makes me groan.
Ouch, it would actually be better since the conqueror uses a quite shitty AP shell, but yeah the reload juste makes it barely unplayable
Conquoror AP isn’t bad? :(
conqueror has that pen advantage i was talking about on its APDS. I wont deny that seeing something like BTr80 from side is super annoying, but frontally its like OG Halo CE sniper rifle and sounds like one too.
Just find plate with as little slope as possible and let it rip.
Im actually prepared to ask for Conqueror reload rate to be buffed next BR changes, it would fix like most of the issues I have with it.
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The Foch has better damage, cuz bigger calibre, but sill, anything from the side is only a crit and the reload makes you overall pretty useless.
A better reload would make it playable
An APHE would make it excellent
120mm APHE would also likely see it bumped up in BR, case example T10M.
If Foch was glasscannon, sure. But with its armor?
Sure, make it 7.7 it wouldn’t be that much of an issue. But see ? APHE makes the same vehicle far better
indeed, and thats why Conqueror and M103 sit at 7.7 with AP only while T-10M that has APHE of extremely similiar pen to M103 sits at 8.3, even if they were IRL contemporaries.
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Not the people, the tanks. German and Russian tanks among others abuse broken APHE mechanics as it’s their only or best round.
You missed the part where I said I was a crap tanker. You don’t need to be an elitist to see that something is most certainly broken. Even so the last time I played with the Ferdinand off memory I went 4:2 just aiming centre mass at targets. If you’re trying to claim APHE isn’t the blatant easiest round to use in game due to the aforementioned broken mechanics you’re lying.
It already faces the Panther in SB and probably RB as well which has even more armour than the VK so this point is meaningless. Once again the Firefly even with a massive damage buff would still be the inferior tank due to armour values.
So you’re admitting that tanks that have to go for the Panther turret are at a disadvantage compared to the Panther itself most of the time? Even when you’re firing APHE it can be an inconvenience…
…now tell me how you feel doing the same with an AP only tank that can only kill 2-3 crewmen at a time and if you misjudge the timing you end up being 1-shot killed by a completely broken round that cheats all physics and is completely unbalanced in regards to gameplay. Now add this to pretty much every tank where AP shenanigans can and will occur such as crewmen eating the entire round or the round causing zero shrapnel at all which it so heavily relies on, oh and don’t forget the accuracy required to do meaningful damage compared to APHE’s automatic kills even with poor shot placement.
Or having better armour whilst it’s at it as well along with being able to kill most AP lobbing tanks by shooting almost anywhere. So remind me why the Firefly would have to go up again?
Completely missed the point.
It’s still an issue that directly hurts AP users that forces them to go for weakspots which at times results in only 2-3 crew being killed. Compared to any penetration by APHE. Point once again missed.
On the test range sure, now tell me that’s how it always goes in game. “Shell shattered”, “bounced”. Or minimal damage.
No but “Let me say it again, but more slowly”.
AP tanks would not need a BR increase as armour would not be affected. A shot that would not penetrate still will not penetrate if damage was increased. Armour is still a massive factor and tanks that are considered incredibly well armoured would still be incredibly well armoured.
A lot of APHE lobbing tanks already have similar penetration to those that use AP or have enough that they can kill anything frontally anyways. So where’s the imbalance? A hull down or angled Tiger II will still be largely unkillable to even something like a Centurion with 300+mm or penetration whilst the Tiger can still annihilate the Centurion no matter how it gets itself.
Your entire stance seems to be around punishing powered up AP tanks because they’d actually be competitive for once and playing on a level playing field. Because nothing you’re saying is making any sense from a balance perspective especially considering we both know penetration values and armour most certainly would not change. A dead Firefly would still be dead (and it’d still be much easier to kill than almost all other tanks) but now it can cheat physics like you and kill you quickly too.
So no, your BR increase would make zero sense whatsoever.
This person cannot read. For everyone here please read the first two lines of the original post for this thread. In fact add it to your next post please it’ll be enlightening.
That said APHE affects every mode hence the lack of a tag. The round is completely broken and if you’re denying this I don’t think I can help you.
Except this very rarely works at all in game. You might penetrate the Tiger II and kill the gunner but you simply cannot rely on detonating the ammo rack as most of the time the round will be eaten by the gunner.
Sure, the tanks played themselves and loaded the shells themselves. lol. No player involved whatsoever.
you admit to being bad (thus not undertanding the game as stats are just applied experience onto game) yet you have zero reservations making dogmatic statements and dismissing people with more experience criticizing your logic.
you shouldnt be calling for massive game changes affecting everyone if your issues can be solved by just playing a little bit better.
its the standard example of “I cant adapt to the game so I will demand the game to adapt to me and screw everyone else”.
Almost if all im saying is that AP inst as bad and APHE has tradeoffs that arent apparent from the first look.
See some of my previous comments:
See?
Firefly very well could theoretically end up at 5.0 if AP was buffed in damage as armor isnt the sole balancing factor. VK is effectively casemate with 5.1°/s of horizontal turret traverse when aced, compared to Fireflys 24°/s of horizontal turret traverse when aced, not to mention faster reload than VK.
Prime example of trade offs and assymetrical balancing, things that are well estabilished within WT.
Almost as if engaging tank at its strongest terms will make it more likely to win the encounter.
id simply contine the engagmenet according to tactical situation. Ive played UK, Ive played Firefly, and Ive met Panthers. In fact I still have Firefly in my 5.3 UK lineup. Its perfectly fine.
wow, mising a shot makes you lose an encounter, what quirky situation unique solely to the firefly. /s
not unique to the Firefly, AP or UK in general; thats gaijin spaghetti code and as such it cannot form basis of argument regarding vehicle balance as it is entirely random and not reproducable.
APHE more often than not has lower pen than AP of the same BR, meaning APHE is the one that has to go for weakspots, not AP.
Centurion mk3 can simply one click Tiger IIs turret face with AP, M48 can not do the same with APHE.
on UFP yes.
wow, a tank is strong in its niche of frontal long range engagements. whats next, SPAAs OP since they can counter planes?
you were complaining about AP post pen damage the whole damn time, even in the original post. Entire time your discussion was about AP not being able to one shot just like APHE.
You are calling for buff to AP as solution to the issue that should be fixed in its entiriety in the first place. Youre asking for band-aid instead of systemic fix.
something tells me you made this entire post just because you couldnt front pen Panthers UFP at 2km while he was angled and got killed in return.
Yes “Let me say it again, but more slowly”.
My entire stance is that just because youre bad player, you dont get to call for AP buffs.
“You dont understand I need 300mm+ pen to deal with turret face with effective armor of 191mm”
Either present scenario with specific conditions where the matchup can be compared or keeps such vague remarks to yourself.
Sure, im the one not making sense when I can clearly make AP work.
You created your post, its your responsibility to state what mode it relates to, as each mode has its specifics, in relation to SIM its BR spread and matchmaker, since you at one point IIRC you said that Firefly cant frontally pen Tiger II, tank it cant meet naturaly in GRB. Saying “from my sim experience” doesnt mean this is SIM only thread. It was perfectly fine assumption on my part.
Further,
Just below the sentence you quoted I explained how buff to AP would affect both arcade and realistic. You even acknowledge that yourself.
but as far as I know, you never acknowledged that before I pointed it out
youre the one hyperfocusing on post-pen damage whileignoring the remainder of the vehicle kit.
you said yourself youre crap tanker, its entirely possible to take out Tiger II with centurion mk.3 frontally in one shot.
TL;DR git gud.
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The foch 120mm anhiliates most tanks you face. The damage really is not an issue.
This is the worst case of clutching at straws I’ve ever seen.
Yes because of course you need to be a pro YouTuber sponsored by Gaijin and Gamersupps to see that APHE is broken and causes a massive imbalance. Everyone else agreeing with this sentiment are of course also scrubs… which happens to be quite a few people looking at things apparently.
Same point as above.
“APHE is fine guys! There’s nothing wrong with it even though it breaks physics, balance and any sense of realism because this guy admits himself he’s not great at tanks therefor his arguments are invalid!”
Just out of interest if I find a player that agrees with me with far better stats than you does that make your opinion worthless? Using your own logic and all that.
Armour is a massive point in regards to balance, arguably as big as gun damage. You’re also bringing turret rotation speed of all things into account and yet you’re completely ignoring other stats such as gun depression and the speed etc like I mentioned earlier. Once again you’re clutching at straws.
Head to head at close range the Panther wins.
Head to head at long range the Panther wins.
Flanking the Panther wins as it’ll get to any spot quicker than the Firefly.
Shooting from cover due to the gun depression the Panther wins.
Close combat the Panther wins due to the Firefly needing to pray his rounds don’t bounce off of the at times freaky turret of the Panther whilst the Panther can neutral steer to swing the gun faster and one-shot the Firefly anywhere. Yet you think AP tanks would need a BR increase? Right…
Considering the Call of Duty map design we suffer these days where we’re force fed into one another please do tell me where the Firefly can get itself where it’s at an advantage against the Panther without the Panther player being completely stupid. Remember that Panther will delete you with a single shot no matter where you’re hit 99% of the time.
It’s perfectly fine firing a toothpick at the opposition who are using broken physics defeating APHE with armour that requires precise shooting and at times even luck, don’t even try to tell me you haven’t had that 17lber magically bounce off of that turret or had an APDS “shatter” when it shouldn’t resulting in your instant death. Or crews eating the rounds neutering the damage dealt, case in point the Tiger II situation I mentioned earlier.
Again reading isn’t your strong suit.
I never said missed, I said misjudged timing. You could penetrate that Panther and hit the already dead gunner because you mistimed when he’d be replaced (because you wouldn’t know when) to then be instakilled by his return fire.
This is a scenario that happens with AP. This never ever happens with APHE because I can hit your engine bay from a 90 degree angle and the shrapnel will magically fly off to kill every member of your crew.
How about if I told you I had a video of three consecutive shots penetrating a Tiger from the 17lber and not only does the crewman eat the round but he only gets yellow damage… is that repeatable enough?
Pardon the talking I had the girlfriend on the headset at the time… also pardon the language. If you’re at home with kids turn the volume down. Also I’ll admit I messed up in the video the engine bay death was overpressure by a HEAT round not APHE. Either way with that Tiger if I was firing APHE he’d have died 3 times due to broken mechanics. See the issue now?
The point is magical crewman are a regular occurrence and they hurt AP considerably more than APHE where any penetration = death. I’m willing to bet if we ask some of the lads and lasses on here they’ll all admit to being victim to this and more frequently than they’d like to be.
We’ve already gone over this and no it can’t with any regularity. It can kill the gunner (if the shell doesn’t shatter remember) and if you’re extremely lucky you’ll detonate the ammo. Meanwhile remind me what does a Tiger II do to a Caernarvon or even the massive Tortoise in a single shot?
When a Tiger/Panther whatever has to go for a weak spot the enemy tank dies. When AP has to do the same the gunner might be dead but you have to wait until you can kill his 3 other crew. All of which takes time and leaves you exposed, or you don’t quite judge the timing right and you’re dead when he returns fire.
UFP and turret.
Again re-read my very first post and you’ll see why I’m saying this.
Ah yes, that’s the entire reason why I’m highlighting the blatant balance issues with AP and broken nature of APHE that many many more people other than me have been complaining about for years. You got me.
Yes because it’s only me talking about this, clearly. Also I have to laugh at the tone here.
“You haeff no right to schpeak about ze ztate of ze game if you do nicht have a K:D of at leazt 5:1!! Gaijin! Das console player isht shpeakink again shtop him!!”
Ah yes because you’ve never had a shell shatter or hit the barrel in an attempt to damage that small weakspot which most of the time results in a dead gunner and not a whole lot else. Meanwhile you’re 1-click dead with any penetration thanks to (for the millionth time) broken shell mechanics that creates a completely fictional orb of death in your tank.
Centurion hull down close range.
Centurion hull down long rage.
Centurion not hull down at any range.
Tiger II will kill the Centurion in one shot every time with every successful penetration which is easy peasy even for me, a self proclaimed bad player. Compare the fictional damage from the Tiger II against the Centurion for all of us here please.
It’s my experiences in Sim with a round that is broken in all game modes. The literal first two lines of the thread explains this. Again you’re clutching at straws.
Because the fictional post pen damage of APHE is the massive issue here. Your counterarguments to this have been “Yes but you see tanks like the Firefly can rotate their turrets x degrees faster therefor there’s no issue with the AP rounds being weak nor the Panther keeping its thermonuclear death rounds”.
At the slightest whiff of AP being buffed to create a level playing field you immediately scream that the BR’s would all have to go up completely ignoring that armour values and penetration would remain the same. The game would just be considerably more balanced and fair to AP users. It’d also be somewhat more realistic as an added bonus especially if the rounds were modelled to bounce around the tank.
But it relies on RNG. Now tell me what RNG you deal with when you drive any APHE slinger with a successful penetration.
Because? You said so?
Im not the one making dogmatic statement about “APHE OP” and disregarding experience of more experienced players as not valid because it doesnt fit my agenda.
ad populum fallacy
Difference is I stated why AP is fine - lower damage is compensated by either pen, or things not directly related to post-pen damage such as autoloader and stabiliser.
All you do is repeating “APHE OP”, on top of getting several things wrong (one shotting tiger IIs through turret face).
If your claim isnt supported by data, it isnt true.
Would depend on what hes saying and ifhis stats line up with what he is saying. But yes, I concede to people with more experience than me within certain topics, if what they are saying does line up.
Never denied that.
because you yourself claimed that Panther is more manueverable without any further elaborating.
I merely pointed out that Firefly is more manueverable than Panther despite you claiming otherwise.
I admited that max speed in straight line, Panther is better yes.
HOWEVER
at the time of making this comment, this is the first time you mentioned gun depression.
“let me state vague, completly made up and non-verifiable scenarios, that will surely get my point across”.
get specific, or keep such comments to yourself.
moreso, if AP would suddenly do as much damage as APHE, there simply would be no reason to take AP over APHE. You would now have shell that pens way more while doing the same damage.
Firefly 17pndt would be just as good as Panther 75mms. Do you think Firefly would either
A) Stay the same BR while tanks with guns of comparable pen and post pen damage would remain where they are or
B) Follow the tanks with guns of comparable pen and post pen damage to new BR?
Of course suddenly making one shell type meta overnight would shift the BRs; and if you dont think it wouldnt, theres something wrong with you.
If I can have positive KD in Firefly, so can you.
It wasnt clear you are refering to gunner replacement time with that comment but whatever, Ill gie you this.
I would simply repeat that this is spaghetti code issue and as such its not unique to the Firefly, AP, or UK in general.
indeed we did.
Maybe for someone of your skill level, but you will not gaslight me about something I do regularly when I play the Cents.
Caernarvon will get the first shot off thanks to Stab.
On Tortoise, that entirely depends on whoever gets the first shot off. Tortoise is perfectly capable of crippling Tiger II.
Skill issue.
100mm of protection with only few areas on the mantlet offering more, trully heavy target for gun capable of penetrating 190mm at point blank range.
I did, and it doesnt make this point any less invalid.
If two surgeons have different opinion on my medical issue; with one surgeon performing up to 1000 surgeries in the past succesfully while the other surgeon has two and he cut himself twice, Im more interested in opinion of the surgeon that did 1000 surgeries no matter how much the other surgeon might scream at top of his lungs that his opinion is just as valid.
Ah, I must have simply imagined all of my UK 5.3/7.7 or FRA 7.7 lineup games then, silly me. Games where these things occured but nearly not as frequently as you make them out to be. Obviously Im the one here imagining things.
Depends on who will get first shot off, ie. who enter who line of sight and whos moving. Either way, Centurion has advantage due to stab, and can disable Tiger II in one shot.
Depends on who will get first shot off, ie. who enter who line of sight and whos moving. Either way, Centurion has advantage due to stab, and can disable Tiger II in one shot.
Depends on who will get first shot off, ie. who enter who line of sight and whos moving. Either way, Centurion has advantage due to stab, and can disable Tiger II in one shot.
Maybe to you.
Vehicles have tradeoffs, some have APHE, some have autoloader. Thats simply how the game is made. If you want to deny this, be my guest.
ah yes, what I did was screaming, no explanation as to why would BRs go up, explanation you decided to ignore because they dont fit your agenda.
ah yes, and APHE doesnt.
Anyway, i think im done here.
Think of this as your win, but fact is that I dont have to move a finger and the situation will remain the same. You on the other hand have to yet present an argument coherent enough to convince one user, let alone argument that will convince gaijin.
Peace ✌️
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That video just shows a profound lack of understanding of the penetration mechanics of this game. A lot of these shots would straight out non pen with a lower penetration APHE firing gun.
The death to the Tiger wasn’t even APHE, that was a damn HEAT shell, and you died to overpressure. Not that that death wasn’t bullshit, but this is just confirmation bias at work.
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