I came to the conclusion that the game’s automated systems which handle “inactivity” of players - punish quite many good players for what the system mindlessly considers “inactivity”

OP has valid points in some areas yes, but their solution is in my eyes a wrong one.

I’ve personally argued in favour of implementing more engaging “base bombing” where for example different structures get destroyed a different amount depending on munition used (eg, a bunker shouldn’t take damage from napalm and spaced out vehicles/buildings shouldn’t take as much damage from a bunker buster). It would at minimum make that part of the gameplay less “point and click” and require some skill/knowledge to effectively gain progress from. There are other things i could add here as well but i think you get my point.

Yes, it is there to have some way to discourage (and be able to punish) those that deliberately ruin the gameplay for others (at the detriment of discouraging those that might in rare cases have legitimate purpose for the action, same as any rule really).

They do to some extent don’t they? i’ve think i’ve come back to being kicked out of match (but i honestly might be misremembering here, i’m not certain). At the very minimum they do not count as active when all other players are destroyed and the auto ticket bleed speeds up even if they are sitting there, i’ve had this happen to me because it took to long to land and re-arm so i counted as inactive and lost the match.

  1. The action itself doesn’t lead to a loss, it increases chances of a win by bleeding tickets, they didn’t chose the optimal way to bleed tickets and lost that way, in the same way a player can choose the wrong way to fight an enemy plane and lose a fight they could have won with a different strategy. The action itself in isolation isn’t directly leading to a loss.

  2. Playing with friends that have lower BR vehicles isn’t against the rules, there is even an achievement designed for those situations, “God mode”. As long as they in the match itself aim to win and take actions that progress the team towards a win then it’s fine.

I don’t think so, see above.

There you go, you said it yourself. It suffices that you agree that it’s circumstantial. Now, if you’d read what 1st post of this topic says about how game punishes inactivity, and if you’d consider that very rule from Code of Conduct quoted above - where, in those parts, is any mention of any circumstances?

None.

Let’s take, for example, that 1-vs-7 fight i linked above. Many circumstances were relevant. Types of enemy aircraft i’ve seen before i decided to went to my airfield and camp there (notably, sweden aircraft at this BR are deadly). Amount of fuel i took from very start, anticipating possibility of needing it - full tank. Features of the plane i was piloting, mentioned in the title of that reddit post i linked. Amount of kills made by those 7 remaining enemies - far more than half. I knew they are skilled fighters. Even terrain about my team’s AA airfield on this map. Even combat messages at certain points - for example, i initiated my landing after seeing that last guy just killed some ground units, so i knew i had time to land, repair and reload safely. Etc.

You think any “administrator” who judges who’s “properly” inactive and who’s not - knows all such details and circumstances? I doubt.

You think any automated system can know it all and properly judge? I bet not.

So then, who will then decide in which cases circumstances were justifiable, and in which cases they were not?

Nobody can. Especially because each player’s capabilities and skills - vary wildly. What seems “obvious” for me, or you, or any game’s admin - can seem dead wrong, or be unknown, to someone else. Applies to most things, this.

Means, inactivity “sanctions” and bans will inevitably often be based on incorrect judgement. If any are done at all.

Solution do it? Hell if i know. I just know it’s bad to punish those who are innocent and good-natured. Bad for the game, and bad for everyone who interacts with them. Mind you, this is not anyhow personal experience, if you wonder; just general observation.

As i explained above, 1st, it’s at least arguably not against the rule quoted, 2nd, as already mentioned, i think that rule needs improvement, and 3rd, as per 1st post of this topic, it benefits all remaining players via game’s reward system - both teams. I gave the numbers, and so far noone objects the percentages provided. It’s hard fact. Again, like it, or not. It’s how it works.

And 4th, even. By your own logic, when your vehicle is clearly out of shape to fight - like when out of offensive weaponry - then it’s “the only reasonable option” to avoid combat. Now, take Su-17M2 for example - no counter-measures, no radar, no radar missiles, no all-aspect missiles, no agility to turnfight anything but bricks like F-105. But you got your cannon, full belt. You’re facing some usual fighters trying to catch you - a mirage, a Draken with its awesome low-alt speed and agility, a mig-21 with its radar missiles. You’ve see they scored kills already. They chase you. You know you have 0% chance to win if you would engage any of them - his friends will kill you, guaranteed, in half a minute. You know you have 100% chance to outrun them, because Su-17 engine is superior at high alt. And you know you need high alt to reduce fuel consumption to last until map timer ends. And you know they’ll easily kill you if you’d try to land. What you don’t know - is whether any of them would fail his fuel management and crash for running outta fuel, and whether any of them has damaged gear or flaps and would fail his landing and die trying it, and whether any of them would stop chasing, start grinding ground units and crash into the ground doing it. I’ve seen all of it happen. And so, you know you have more than 0% chance to win if you’d go stratosphere and fly up there, possibly for over 10 minutes, hoping to even out the odds. If just one of them remains, you may go down and fight, and prevail, and win.

Your reasonable choice in this situation? And mind you, it’s real situation i had. My reasonable choice - go stratosphere.

But you just said, quote, “it is against the rules”. I say, there is a problem with rules, here. I say it again, and for the last time.

And you also said, quote, “I’ve personally only ever done option one”. Perhaps you’ve never played much any of Su-17s, Su-7, Su-22s, Lightnings, F-105D, F-15s, F-104s, F-111s, or other similar planes which all have technical high-alt and/or speed advantage over most planes of comparable BR.

P.S. It is no player’s fault some planes excel at high-alt and/or speed more than others. And it is, quite regularly, a reasonable choice to use such advantage exactly the same manner other kinds of other planes’ advantages - are used. “Against the rules”? Give everyone very same vehicle, just one exactly the same, for every random battle - then talk about such a rule. Otherwise, frankly, it doesn’t sound very reasonable - to put it mildly. ;)

Lmao.

The player reports for passive behaviour come from plain stupid players which have zero clue about how to play Air RB. These are the guys which frequently lose even in large numerical superiority because they can’t catch a faster plane, forgot to look after their tickets or are unaware of ai actions on old legacy maps.

If the fly rat planes without sufficient top speed or high alt performance to have an advantage in turn fights - it is their problem. Only clueless players tuen into 2-6 guys chasing him.

I am aware of the issues within SB matches. As the whole thread deals with Air RB i saw no need to mention it.

The issue is more that the fellow GM is desperately trying to find something which supports his views.

The context matters. If i see this:

the fellow GM cites from a rule related to gaijins interest to earn money - “participating” is clearly aimed at participating in in-game events (like the current F-106 grinding event, tournaments, etc.).

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We can discuss how we get the most out of a messy system or how we can create ideas for GJN to make it better. I prefer the second one.

The reward system should be fair over all and should fit the game goals. For ALL players, no exception for beginners. Because such exceptions will only cause dumb actions ingame and forces no learning curve at all. Like the actual base bombing mess.

If the goal of a battle is a win, there are two ways to do it: Killing all enemies or bleeding all tickets.
In a 16vs16 a player kill should give you as much reward as bleeding 1/16 of tickets. Now you can compare the rewards of a player kill, a destroyed base and a specific amount of ground targets. There is no balance at all.
After all of this we can question why time is a valuable thing in the reward system. I can get 4 player kills in a minute or in 25, the effect to the battle is the same: 25% of a win. Bleeding 25% of tickets in a 7.5k ticket battle…that’s hard work…remember, a base bleeds 0-400 tickets ish (depends on BR), at 9.3 only 100.

Maybe now you could realize, the whole system is a mess.

My example was aimed to show the indirect effects of gaijin not implementing technical solutions to fulfil their rules - like here AFK. The impact of playihg 1 vs 2 (and one of them is AFK) is a severe disadvantage as i am marked with a red square and the only active enemy not.

Some weeks (months?) ago i joined a match - and the door bell rang. So i changed my view to spectator view. I got a parcel & received a phone call. When i came back the match was over - but despite i never spawned i received 5.000 SL as sole survivor…

You actually start with that circumstance in your main post:

Players, by democracy. As well as the War Thunder administration:

You might not like it, but that is how it currently is. Sure there are alternatives, but ALL options come with both positive and negative sides.

Isn’t this the case with any rules/laws? a jury and/or judge makes a judgement and hands out punishment based on their interpretation of the circumstances. I don’t think there is any better system.

This is where a lot of the issue lies in a discussion like this. It’s fine to complain but what is the point other than venting if you offer no alternative?
Innocent people will always end up in the cross fire no matt what you choose, it’s a delicate balancing act between how many innocent can be allowed to get punished compared to how many guilty can be let of the hook. They almost always overlap in a gray area and the choice is then where in that gray are you draw the line. Inevitably others are going to complain about your choice no matter what you choose because letting guilty people of the hook is bad and punishing innocents is bad but you have to do some of either and/or both.

  1. Can be argued, sure. But personally i think very weakly so.
  2. Subjective opinion you are free to have.
  3. I have not disputed that fact, i have disagreed with your solution.
  4. will not comment as it is such a specific case that it makes no sense to argue for or against.

This is why BR exists and why you then should argue for a BR change instead of a rule change. It’s one thing to use an advantage for a better re-engagement, another to use it to completely avoid the battle altogether.

Finally a topic in which we have an identical view on things. 👍

But imho the fellow player here:

is 100% correct.

That’s all fine, but my question: Where are the punishments?

In all my years of playing this game (250days playtime) I got a single warning about teamkilling. And I’m far away from being well-behaved.

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conjecture.

It can include, but isn’t limited to that. In fact PvE callouts are frequently punished.

Sure, issue here might be that it isn’t always reasonably possible to implement automated systems in a way where to many innocents aren’t caught in the crossfire. Example: In a low BR match x minutes might be reasonable for nothing to happen as it takes a long time to get from A to B while in top BR its 99% of the time deliberate AFK as during the same time the player have crossed the map 3 times.

But sure, there are likely areas where it is both possible and reasonable for them to do at which point i fully support such implementations.

As long as i see no evidence than players got a temp or perma ban from the game for being “inactive” this looks like pointless exchange.

I mean technically you can construct the case that players with bomber bot scripts are inactive too, but this would be not related to the OP.

They regularly punish teamkillers that avoid the automated system (Read more about the system here: https://support.gaijin.net/hc/en-us/articles/200069301-Teamkilling).

Here is the “Fair play” post where they started listing teamkill punishments:

They have since that post included the teamkill bans that are 1 week or longer in all the “Fair play” posts. There are many more bans issued that are shorter than that, but they aren’t listed.

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Agreed, sadly i cannot provide any such evidence due to privacy and security reasons.

I would call it an educated guess - based on experience.

I receive the “10 players have complained…” message exclusively when i take out fast aircraft with good to excellent high alt performance. I mean if a Yak-3 squad tries to catch a P-47 D-28 or a bunch of 109s with gunpods can’t get in their gun range of my B-18 B it is not my problem.

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By extending playtime and allow for more pts from ground? then Yep the whole profit system’s logic is sht

Same. Sadly, i got no ideas how to make it better, to solve the problem 1st post describes. It’s a difficult problem, it seems. Which is one of reasons i brought the matter here. Perhaps, someone else will have an idea. I’d sure love to see any.

Sidenote: philosophical considerations of “gray areas” and “some innocents will always end up punished” - are not what i count among such ideas. In my book, if there’s anything which can be done to reduce any innocent’s suffering - then it must be done. I’ve discovered the problem, i posted about it. I know there are people in here who know more than i do. I hope they would at least take this topic into consideration, and if so, then i believe that i already helped WT’s community a little by creating this topic.

Sidenote: i’ve met many players who understand this problem same or similar way that i do. They ask their teammates not to kill “the last guy”, tell them some of reasons i mentioned in this topic, in varying ways. And sometimes - not often, but it happens - it even works in practice; the last guy, even if in some slow bomber, is left alone. Even if he’s flying circles over his AA field and is very easy to destroy, even despite AA presense.

Yes. I fully support this, and already elaborated above as much.

Only secondary goal. Not the primary. Also detailed above in this topic, already. So far, noone objected that part, too.

Also, there is the 3rd way: creating ticket advantage by the time map timer ends. The team with most tickets remained - wins. This is neither common nor rare way to win matches - at some BRs, happens more often than at others, though. But, there is a sound tactic which i’ve used to get some victories, based on this 3rd way: when i was the last guy remaining vs few fighters, flying a fast strike aircraft (mainly Su jets) - climbed to stratosphere, had them all chase me, then when some ran out of fuel and went RTB, and just few minutes remained until the end of the timer - dove down and cleared some ground units (using that cannon which was not spent trying to do “combat”), turning the ticket situation from losing to winning, and survived till the end of the timer. Doesn’t work if trying to outrun them low-alt: then they usually manage to corner you with “avenger” and “blind hunt” orders, but high-alt, speed difference is large enough to allow circling at ~2 Mach keeping them far enough for their missiles to never be able to catch you.

Much more complex, and much more balanced, than what you just described. AI units (planes) destroying ground units. Different kinds of ground / naval targets giving wildly different amount of rewards, and rightly so - some are massively easier to destroy than others. Physical size of targets (both player and non-player targets sizes vary wildly). Varying amounts of damage it takes to destroy targets. Etc.

“We”? Maybe “you” need to question it, i don’t know if you do, but i don’t need to question it at all; i already told exact meaning of it, the way i see it, above in this discussion. I see solid reason for it to be as it is, and briefly described it, above in the discussion. I am sorry if i failed to do it perfectly well. :(

Are you trying to tell people how they “should” play the game, what exactly they “should” do to have fun? I’m positive that grinding is loved by many players. It’s not just in WT, mind you. Ever since Ultima Online (the Mother of all MMORPGs), it was discovered that grinding “stats” in a game - can be, and is, good fun for great many people!

This is one more separate problem with this particular rule’s wording, however. “Inactive” word is not clear enough. What exactly is “inactive”? The rule gives just one example of it: being AFK. This is clearly not the case when the player is actively piloting their vehicle in a “running away” manner. Is he inactive when he’s clearly actively steering, using countermeasures, chatting, etc? In my opinion - no, he’s not inactive. In many other player’s opinion - he is. Technically, i.e. by strict meaning of the word? Probably not inactive. Applicably, i.e. how game admins deem it be? Most likely varies from one admin to another (this is my pure guess). In any case, it’s a mess of a rule right here, in this regard.

I did not apply “preconceived circumstances” to it. Those circumstances were given as one actually-happened example to illustrate the general logic, only. There are other, different examples also confirming the logic i used. Which logic, simply put, is this: in general, if someone is avoiding combat for any given length of time - it does not yet mean he’ll keep doing it for the entirety of remaining time in a match, and in many specific kinds of situations, such a temporary combat avoidance - can be, and is often, done to increase the person’s chance to end up winning the match.

That’s why the only undisputable case when “avoiding combat - is wrong” situation - is when someone is doing it from very start of the match, and for the entirety of the match’s duration. Then and only then can we be sure that this person’s goals, ideas and their personal understanding of what is “right” to do in a match - were not involved; that the person simply decided “not to play” the game in any reasonable way.

Let me give you one very different example to illustrate this more. Several weeks ago, i was doing “best squad” wager in air AB, while not being in pre-made squad. Late props BR. In one of games, an AD-2 was assigned to be my squadmate. From the start, he went from spawn point directly to one of enemy bases which was quite far from the middle of the map. I escorted him in my powerful fighter plane, needing to be near him when i get kills, to earn next stage of that “best squad” wager. He then dropped a couple of bombs to that enemy base, which took out less than 20% of that base’ health. And then he remained near that base, doing circles, waiting for his two bombs to respawn on his plane (which is how it works in arcade). He did it again, and again, and again - some 6 or 7 times in total, dropping them onto that base nearly once a minute. Flying circles near it, otherwise. And for all that time, i remained near him, escorting and protecting him. No enemies ever bothered to go after us.

Now, anyone observing this situation from “outside”, not knowing circumstances related to my best squad wager and preferences / skills / abilities / plane modules of that AD-2? Could very easily see us both being inactive near the edge of the map. Partucularly myself - while that AD-2 was bombing, i was literally flying circles 1 km over his head, seemingly “doing nothing” in a fighter.

So you see, such situations and “circumstances” - are all kinds of. Examples i gave - are only provided to explain how it happens in the game in few particular cases, point out relevant details, show involved complexity of it. Not as any “proof”.

Someone above in this discussion offered the option of “let enemies kill you”. How about you stay full open and take THAT option? It keeps you “in combat”, you know. You gotta follow the RULES, you know. No? ;)

In this case, you’re avoiding engagement “now” to possibly achieve other objectives later. May not happen, that “later” - someone else may bomb that base before you can, for example. And then, how do you know that every “running away” guy didn’t plan to do some objectives later, too? Above in this discussion, i described one particular “stratospheric” tactic which does exactly that!

I regularly see people doing stupid things - in life, in WT, in other titles. I mean, all kinds of things - in general. Should i then applaud and support their practical stupidity?

Also, in this specific case, it is actually one revolting thing such players do, when they make such reports. Revolting and insulting. You know why? Because such reports, especially when deemed sound by reviewing personnel, end up limiting “running away guy”‘s freedom to go where they want, when they want, in this game. I mean, take any specific player - anyone - and explain to me, how, exactly, other players’ opinion of that player’s manner of playing should anyhow limit his ability - in however manner and kind of limitation it’d be - to go where that player wants, when he wants it?

Why those other players’ desires are more important that one single player’s desire to “run away”?

Why those other players’ opinion and wish - are respected, but that single guy’s wish - is not?

Nope, this all stinks, to me. Bad logic. Incorrect. And it’s one big part of the problem of that “avoiding combat = inactivity = punishable” logic and system we have in WT, in my very humble opinion.

And how do you know if that “running away” guy had such an intent? Particularly, if he was chased and failed to survive until the point he planned to re-engage? And/or, whether he hoped for a situation when re-engaging could achieve a victory, but that situation never matherialized (for example, he hoped to resume grinding ground units to earn victory by ticket advantage, hoping no enemies would grind any ground units while he’s running away and chatting with them, but some of them did, ruining his hopes and plan for that match)?

There is no telepathy. Sure, quite many “running away” players does not have any such plan - they just avoid combat to stay alive (which by itself is sound strategy to earn RP, to remind you). But equally certain that many “running away” players - have such plans. Some hope to wait until some of chasers go RTB and re-engage remaining ones, then go to enemy air field if they manage to get there and drop the rest. Some hope to win it by “fuel war” - i’ve heard other players using this exact term, mind you. Some rightfully observe their team’s AI strikers are alive and given enough time, could win by ticket lead, if the other team continues to fail to clear those AI strikers. Etc.

So, how do you know what exactly was in that “avoiding combat” player’s head, at the time he did some such avoidance? How do you know what purposes and hopes they had?

Way i see it - you don’t. Nobody can know it with certainty, with just one exception: they avoid combat at all times, all the time, in all matches.

But you just spoke as if it’s possible to know it.

May be you are a telepath. This is no sarcasm - heck, what do i know is only that i am not one. Weird stuff sometimes happens in reality, like quantum theory and such. Maybe telepahy exists, and you’re one of people who can do it. If so, then i would agree that your argument i just quoted - is correct, and my objections to it - are incorrect. But if not so, then i respectfully agree to disagree, if needed.

Cheers.

You didn’t do it at all.
You only described how it can be used to maximize rewards.
But why is it still a part of the calculation?
The reward system was made in an era of the game where matches last 1 hour. It has no right to exist in the current state where toptier matches last 3min. Even prop matches can be done in 5min.

Sure, much more messy.
Sometimes the same like the time problem. GJN deleted auto ticket bleed but AIs still destroy ground units. So in some situations it could make sense to destroy your own AIs, because otherwise you can’t equal tickets anymore. You see the mess?

Also a mess because it depends on what your plane is capable of, but the matchmaker doesn’t care about it. The MM only play dice out of the available planes in the BR range with way to less rules. And the reward system itself is a mess too. In the current battles bases have no effect to the battle but still (even after nerfed) give way too much rewards.
Explain me what is fair on the example i told you before: 3 studebakers or 1 player kill give the same mission points ish.
And NOW we have several new maps (Falkland/Denmark/toptier Smolensk), ground targets bleed no tickets at all but the color of the marks say they should. So unexperienced players do ground pounding, earn a lot of rewards but hinder their team.

And these are only few examples, there are a lot more…a lot!

Once again, you see the mess?

Time for me is a problem we can discuss after all these bigger problems are solved.

Not only. I also described, in one of comments, how it serves to ensure that everyone is getting significant, “good enough” RP, regardless of how they play. And i mentioned how it’s very unlikely to change any much, due to this function of “time played” RP reward in the system.

Please, refer there for further elaboration which answers your here question.

Ok, this example is pretty simple, unlike most others. Let’s see why this is so and how it’s actually well balanced feature.

Bases are there to fulfill multiple purposes:

  • to enable bomber, bombing-striker, and bomber-fighter pilots to have something to do with their high caliber and/or incendiary bombs. They must exist for this reason alone;

  • to provide a big, easy-to-hit target for pilots who have difficulty hitting smaller ground targets (planes with no ballistic computers, no ground indication of impact point, strategic bombers designed to operate from high altitude, from which bombs have large spread, etc);

  • in longer matches, to provide renewing source of targets for bombing pilots, as bases, unlike ground / water units, respawn after a few minutes;

  • in all battles, destruction of bases must give relatively big reward, because there are planes which can do little else. Anyone who played Canberras, Tu-4s, B-29s, etc etc - know that. Meaning, all the pilots who fly those planes - must get respectable activity and RP rewards from destroying bases (only, or mainly).

3rd feature of bases, described just above - straight makes it impossible to anyhow tie any significant ticket bleed to bases’ destruction: if you do, then in longer matches it’d be possible to bleed all tickets of enemy team without destroying much, or possibly even any, ground and AI units present on the map. Which would mess up importance and gameplay role of those units, at least to some large extent. That’s why it’s a no-no.

End result: bases must be there, they must not produce any much ticket bleed when destroyed (possibly repeatedly), they must give competitive RP reward. And it’s exactly how it is in the current reward system.

Now, that was a simple example of objecting one of critisisms of current reward system you’ve made. Other of your such points - would require even times lengthier explanations. I am not going into full details on those, as after all, that’s now the subject this topic is about. Not primarily, at least. And also, frankly, i suspect you don’t wanna me to, too?

Have a good day, man. Regardless whether we agree on things or not, it was good to talk. Thank you. o7

To you. To me, working with a bunch of randoms to get the win is why I play this game. RP/SL? meh.

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No

No (skill issue)

No

No

Wrong conclusion ( there are still front line maps, bombers can end battle very quick)

No

You are one of those players, who want a game to grind without any effort. That’s not the idea of ARB!
ARB is a PvP mode with a part of PvE to make all vehicles usefull in some sense. But because PvE exists all planes should have the ability to win a battle. So in first place, all actions should have an effect to the battle. And the reward system has to follow it. The bigger the effect the bigger the reward.