How to defeat notching players / why notching doesnt work

[jandaro]

EDIT: i got it wrong, but didnt delete post so others could learn from my mistake (check replies)

when i heard that multipathing was nerfed i just stopped playing high tiers and prepared to see the entire community who were pushing to this change turn into dumpster fire as people will get killed whether they notch or not… well, that didnt happen and what is worse - people who get killed by radar missiles even when they notch are told its “skill issue” even if they did everything right (but honestly, i find it a little funny lol)

in fear that this madness would continue i decided to disclose the secret on why those missiles always hit you even though you notched

well - you see, if you notch, PD radar will think you are ground clutter and filter you out, thus you lose the lock, and how can we counter that? we simply dont use PD radar in first place, instead locking our target in default radar mode

now you might think - enemy will just chaff and missile will miss, right? no. missiles use different signals in order to guide themself to the target, there are two types of missile signals: pulse and CW - and somehow, gaijin summoned the brain power to take this information off the missile stat cards (generally, all except early radar missiles use CW signal)

pulse missiles would - as you suspected - miss their target as soon as the lock is lost, CW missiles however, will continue to pursue their target uninterrupred as long as enemy is in radar cone and anything is locked (even chaff)

so what does that mean? we simply have to disable Pulse doppler from radar and our missiles will always hit our enemy, may he notch and flare and dodge all they want.

this means that all these tutorials you’ve seen and “just notch bro” advices would only work against players who also take advice from various guides instead of thinking with their own head - as soon as you see somebody who summons the brainpower to turn off PD mode you will get stomped

ofc we can counter this by… hugging the ground so enemy cant lock you in the first place… oh, doesnt that sound familliar? are we removing ground clutter next so gameplay is more “skillful” instead of people just sneaking up to you? 🤡

and if you happen to not believe me, why dont you try for yourself? get yourself a jet with CW signal missile and radar that can disable PD mode while maintaining a lock and shoot it at notching peasants

i tested it in custom battle with friend and it turned out exactly as i’ve predicted - notching didnt work as long as he wasnt hugging the ground (and yes, he did chaff too)
(idk why lock wasnt lost, but if you try for yourself and see radar locking onto chaff, just keep enemy aircraft within your radar cone and keep the chaff locked - missile will hit)

hopefully multipathing returns,
but until then, your only real defense against radar missiles is not getting spotted and shot at in the first place, which may be intresting in its own right honestly… or maybe if you can hug the ground and fly perpendicular to the enemy (and also bank + climb/dive little bit, to really not move relative to enemy aircraft, which may prevent you from flying low depending on enemy position) and drop chaff simuntaneously without crashing into ground.

[jandaro]

its a bit late here and entire thing was written a bit hastly - i might left out some things, so feel free to point them out, i will answer happily

[SidewaysCube946]

CW signals are easily defeated by going cold or doing a 3-9 though, I appreciate the effort you put into this post but notching isn’t the only way to dodge radar missiles, usually it is best to use multiple methods in conjunction. Notching is also kinda broken right now so we’ll see what gaijin does with that.

[CorporalApollo]

1. Multipathing still exists, it’s set at 60 meters and there are people in top tier air sim relying on it who are averaging 30+ kills per game without even bothering gaining altitude all game.

2. Gaijin seemed to have broken chaff/notching around the start of dev server (It’s on live too). At the moment Notching hardly works, I’d be surprised if this isn’t a bug
   https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1f5ms4v/guide_logic_for_radar_missiles_had_changed/

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@jandaro

when i heard that multipathing was nerfed i just stopped playing high tiers and prepared to see the entire community who were pushing to this change turn into dumpster fire as people will get killed whether they notch or not… well, that didnt happen and what is worse - people who get killed by radar missiles even when they notch are told its “skill issue” even if they did everything right (but honestly, i find it a little funny lol)

Because it is a skill issue? There’s no reason why you should be notching without a backdrop, chaff, and enough range to do so.

@jandaro

well - you see, if you notch, PD radar will think you are ground clutter and filter you out, thus you lose the lock, and how can we counter that? we simply dont use PD radar in first place, instead locking our target in default radar mode

So… They aren’t notching you correctly if you can simply switch to pulse and continue tracking them.

@jandaro

this means that all these tutorials you’ve seen and “just notch bro” advices would only work against players who also take advice from various guides instead of thinking with their own head - as soon as you see somebody who summons the brainpower to turn off PD mode you will get stomped

It means that all the tutorials are nothing more than trash spewed out by a plethora of CCs who caught on the Adam514 train of “instructional videos means engagement!!1!”
As I’ve said quite a few times now in this reply, you aren’t notching if you aren’t defensive. If you’re able to be locked by any pulse mode, you aren’t defensive.

@jandaro

and if you happen to not believe me, why dont you try for yourself? get yourself a jet with CW signal missile and radar that can disable PD mode while maintaining a lock and shoot it at notching peasants

Again, you aren’t notching if you can simply switch radar modes and hold your lock. The enemy isn’t notching if you can simply switch radar modes and hold your lock.

@jandaro

i tested it in custom battle with friend and it turned out exactly as i’ve predicted - notching didnt work as long as he wasnt hugging the ground (and yes, he did chaff too)

Because you aren’t notching if your aircraft is still in an offensive position above the horizon. He very simply isn’t notching you.

@jandaro

hopefully multipathing returns,

Multipathing is still in game? Its effects are seen below 56m.

[jandaro]

@TheArcticFoxxo

There’s no reason why you should be notching without a backdrop, chaff, and enough range to do so.

when i said “notching” in the post, i meant all of this

@TheArcticFoxxo

They aren’t notching you correctly if you can simply switch to pulse and continue tracking them.

you dont need to continue to track them, thats the point of CW missiles

@TheArcticFoxxo

Multipathing is still in game? Its effects are seen below 56m.

i meant that multipathing is buffed back to its original state or even greater (you can see in the post i said “multipathing got nerfed” not removed)

[markimash]

According to a tech mod, it seems like they greatly buffed tracking a couple days ago.

Can’t notch/chaff anything now

[image] This is one of the recently updated code that was applied to the live server about 2 days ago. This appears to have made it impossible to evade radar-guided missiles.

This would explain a lot. It will probably stay like this until it gets rolled back or something.

[jandaro]

this is very intresting - so i guess i’ve discovered another way of doing it, that other people didnt even know about huh?

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@jandaro

when i said “notching” in the post, i meant all of this

In all mentions of “notching” it doesn’t seem that way.

@jandaro

you dont need to continue to track them, thats the point of CW missiles

Yes, you don’t need to track them specifically… CW will more than likely lose its target due to ground clutter.

@jandaro

i meant that multipathing is buffed back to its original state or even greater (you can see in the post i said “multipathing got nerfed” not removed)

Ah, I see. I was a little confused on that myself and thought “that’s a bit contradictory”, but seeing as I was going down the line and replying to everything, I just went along with it.

[jandaro]

@TheArcticFoxxo

CW will more than likely lose its target due to ground clutter.

this is a point - but it wont work if the player chaffed before ground clutter could come into play, so lock is maintained (i think?) and enemy cant reliably know if you use PD or not (most of the time) so this is only really an option in pre-informed scenario

thus CW can only really be defeated if flown low from the very begining - but then, if the enemy is high enough, notching may not be possible as said in the post

@jandaro

or maybe if you can hug the ground and fly perpendicular to the enemy (and also bank + climb/dive little bit, to really not move relative to enemy aircraft, which may prevent you from flying low depending on enemy position)

[markimash]

Update 2.37.0.170

[image] General A bug that caused all radar types and missile radar seekers to ignore launched weaponry (bombs, rockets, missiles) and chaff has been fixed. (Report). Patch notes reflect only key changes, meaning they may not include a complete list of all improvements made. Additionally, War Thunder is constantly being updated and some changes may not require an update. Changes reflected in patch notes are formed by taking reactions and reque…

The bug with radar/missiles ignoring chaff has been fixed. Should help.

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@jandaro

this is a point - but it wont work if the player chaffed before ground clutter could come into play, so lock is maintained

If the target is within the host’s CW “cone” and has clutter in the background or foreground, tracking is still largely dependent on a doppler gate and entirely relies on a steady lock on the enemy. Notching with a backdrop entirely negates this.

@jandaro

enemy cant reliably know if you use PD or not (most of the time) so this is only really an option in pre-informed scenario

You don’t need to know if PD or pulse modes are being used…? If you’re properly defensive (backdrop + notch) you can’t be locked by either mode.
Even then, a large majority of early RWRs will notify you if CW or PD is in use, and later RWRs will straight up tell you if a missile is tracking.

@jandaro

thus CW can only really be defeated if flown low from the very begining - but then, if the enemy is high enough, notching may not be possible as said in the post

Again, that’s the point of being defensive. You lower yourself below the horizon and set up for a notch. It entirely negates every point you’ve brought up.

[jandaro]

@TheArcticFoxxo

If the target is within the host’s CW “cone” and has clutter in the background or foreground, tracking is still largely dependent on a doppler gate and entirely relies on a steady lock on the enemy. Notching with a backdrop entirely negates this.

i thought it didnt so did some digging and it appears you are correct here and this entire post was debunked… do i delete it… or something?

[TheArcticFoxxo]

All I ask is that you indicate the difference between a notch and whatever incorrect move that was tried in these tests.

Most important thing is we learn. If you feel you want it deleted, that’s absolutely something you can do. At the same time you may also leave it up for others to learn from.