How player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem

You don’t seem to quite understand - we have been waiting for how many years for average players to “use SPAAG correctly.” They haven’t. and clearly never will.

The only SPAAGs which get used well are the ones that have sufficiently powerful guns to where they functionally become WW2-grade IFVs, where they kill tanks mainly and planes when opportunities to do so arise.

All the SPAAGs incapable of being such proceed to sit uselessly in spawn, spray & pray from too far away to be effective while their front line is explosively disassembled in all directions, get swarmed by multiple planes, and then whine on here and Reddit for still more CAS weapon nerfs we don’t need.

And this is not practical to use, as the vast majority of tanks have more than 38mm side plating. Lack of its historically-accurate APCR shell (which ingame on the Stuka G1, Stuka G2, Bf-110G-2, and Hs-129B-2s pens 108mm, and in reality penned 142mm) makes the Ostwind hopelessly defenseless vs all but the thinnest-skinned tanks.

And what exactly do average players proceed to do if they use it? They sit uselessly in their own spawn and fail to help their team much unless the CAS is equally stupid and tries flying right at the Ostwind. After which enemy tanks encroach on their spawn seeing the 37mm tracer stream and kill them, or the Ostwind gets swarmed by multiple CAS, after which the Ostwind’s driver proceeds to screech about how “overpowered” CAS supposedly is, leading to more CAS nerfs we don’t need.

KVs are anything but slow, man. Their top speed is medium tank range, they accelerate more like medium tanks in my experience, and their guns are more suited to flank shots than frontal ones barring memes with the KV-2. I use mine like I would 75mm Shermans and they work quite well - I don’t trust in the armor of anything anymore thanks to the existence of barrel damage.

Heavily-armored tanks should be immune to SPAAGs (barrel included) from the front. But practically anything regardless of weight class should be melted from side shots, and already is against the majority of tanks. Unless it has truly exceptionally thick side armor like seen with the Maus (180mm), E-100 (75+120mm), IS-4M (160mm), IS-6 (120mm), and Tortoise (152mm).

Panthers already are fodder for Bofors autocannons in side shots. They actually have less side armor than Panzer IVs (45mm vs 50mm).

Even the best SPAAG ammunition the game currently lacks mostly tops out around 150mm penetration, with only the missing APCR from the ZSU-57/2 exceeding that at nearly 200mm. And unlike proper tank shells, those rapid-firing AA rounds lose penetration much faster over distance than larger-caliber tank shells would. For common WW2-era guns, they max out at 130-140mm point blank vs flat plate (Flak43 and Bofors L/70). Why should we punish SPAAGs for the fact that most tanks’ side armor tops out at 80mm, with only a small handful of (primarily Russian) exceptions?

I genuinely don’t see how SPAAG melting tank sides they can pen as “overpowered” in any way whatsoever. If that M103 with exceptionally thin 50mm hull side plating gets penned by a single long 88 shell or by 10 40mm Bofors shots, is it not dead either way?

It does help solve the CAS problem though. The player opinion part, specifically.

Half of the complaints about CAS concern game mechanics. The other half concern player perceptions of it being too difficult/impossible to counter. SPAAG in prop tiers are the latter.

What making SPAAG more powerful, through the combination of (restoratively) buffing their anti-tank ability AND ALSO giving all WW2 ones a short-range lead indicator out to no more than 1.5km max for an aced crew does is it makes SPAAG as practically easy to play and use as every other tank and CAS are.

This nullifies the arguments about SPAAGs being too difficult to use correctly, and helps make CAS a lot easier to counter. This shuts down a lot of the onesided whining about CAS, because now the average player can counter it with about as much effort as using any other tank requires.

Anyone trying to still complain proceeds to get their complaints thrown back in their face, because now they have the tools to help themselves and are willingly choosing not to use them. Thus they are trapped in their own whine until they cease being part of the problem. By no longer being able to claim they are “helpless victims,” they can no longer justify more CAS nerfs that bleed into and harm the playability of Air RB.

THAT is my “goal” - to shut down the ability of onesided whining about CAS to keep inflicting boneheaded nerfs on CAS that then get applied to all game modes. Some people will always find something to whine about - there is no “solution” in the usual sense for this beyond make what they are complaining about look like the fault of the complainer. Just like History Channel-inspired Tiger drivers - nobody listens to people going on about that anymore for good reason.

And how do you figure spaa-users will use them correctly if you give them AP ammo?
They will just concentrate on the ground uses because they are…

  1. easier targets
  2. worth more battle points
    Air targets will go unmolested more than they already are.
    Especially when GAIJIN raises the BR - which they will do. Hoping for anything else is just fantasy.

Your argument of “historical accuracy” is bunk. WT only pretends to be historically accurate. There are many vehicles in the game that were just prototypes or one-offs and never saw combat. Additionally the crossover of generations is fictional as well. Tiger 2s never fought T92s or SU-122-54 or Pbv501 - but they can certainly meet them in battle in the game. Fiction.

KV-1 goes 36 km/hr. M6A1 goes 35 km/hr. Tiger 2 goes 38 km/hr. All slow and easy targets. yet you want to give rapid-fire spaa the ability to destroy them from the flank.

I never suggested Panthers were anything but fodder for auto-cannons from the flank. You seem to have missed my point. If Heavies are ALSO fodder from the flank, why not play the medium? Your suggestion nullifies one of their key advantages.

Not that it’s relevant to THIS topic, but I have no idea how you got the suggestion PzIVs have better side armor than the Panther.

Pz4 H 80/38/20 (skirt protection not as good as equivalent solid)
50/38/30 (skirt protection not as good as equivalent solid)

Panther D 80/40/40 (sloped)
100/45/45 (sloped)

In your desperation to mythically make spaa better at countering CAS by giving them AP ammo, you would make it harder to counter CAS, and damage the balance in the ground unit portion.

At least the SPAAG will actually move outside of their own spawns, so that then some of them will engage aircraft targets of opportunity. And if those WW2-era SPAAG also get a form of lead indicator that only shows up at ranges where it’s practical to engage, more people would engage aircraft when opportunities arise. Effectively, SPAAG would become “glass cannon anti-everything” machines.

I do agree though that having plane kills with SPAAG not be worth much in regards to scoreboard, RP, or SL is a very stupid decision.

I’m aware the game only selectively applies the tag of “historically accurate.” But even you can’t argue that the round was standard-issue for the gun in question. The Flak43 cannon literally is the aircraft BK 3,7 cannon turned upside down to fit in a ground mounting. Same gun should have same ammo, simple as that - for the same reason the planes with that gun should be getting the APHE round the Ostwind has.

And the only reason why most postwar HEAT/APDS dispensers sit where they are is the anemic postpen of those ammo types. Rebuff that and the majority of the egregious platforms will forcibly go up, leaving only limited cases like the M36B2 getting M348, or 17-pdr APDS on several things.

Acceleration matters more than top speed in my experience, especially with how many maps are rat mazes. KVs, M6A1s/T1E1s, Tiger 1s, Jumbo Shermans, ARL-44s, Panthers, T29/30/34, T32s, even Caern/Conq accelerate quite well for their size and armor.

I don’t see the issue with anything melting them through their sides, provided those guns have sufficient armor penetration to do so. All of those vehicles already have every normal tank opponent melt them through their sides. What is the difference if instead of one or two clean tank round impacts, 10-20 SPAAG-caliber round impacts to your side blow up your heavy tank? Are you not dead either way?

Frontal armor is what you would play them for, not side armor. Most heavies other than KV-1s, Tiger 1s, KV-220, and to some extent IS-1/2 do not have spectacular amounts of side armor.

Huh. Okay, must’ve mixed that up then. I admit I was wrong there.

Improving their anti-tank ability is meant to encourage run-of-the-mill players to actually move their AA outside of their own tank spawn, where now they can be in position to help kill enemy CAS when it appears. That is only part of the buff I propose for SPAA.

The other part is a short-range lead indicator based on the Rangefinding crew skill, where an Arcade-style lead marker shows up out to between 1.0 and 1.5km based on crew training. Since it only shows at short ranges where SPAAG should be opening up anyway - this teaches those players where and when to shoot.

Both parts are essential, because even with tin-can-sized maps currently, an SPAAG sitting in its own team’s spawn would not be close enough to reliably hit and kill a CAS plane over the front lines. Yet the driver of said SPAAG will not move outside of their own team’s spawn due to the perception that their SPAAG is a totally defenseless glass cannon which can barely scratch the paint of damn near any tank it comes across. And in a game mode where (currently) one must play a tank to “earn” a plane, it is much more likely that said SPAAG would run into a tank first before CAS even enters the picture if he dared move outside his safe zone. Thus he chooses to remain in his safe zone.

Do you understand?

Maybe, just maybe people just want to play tanks, so TO is the best option?

5 Likes

And yet these “run-of-the-mill” players are more than likely to just use the enhanced power to kill tanks to … … … … … kill tanks.

Ground balance ruined and problem of CAS dominance continues. Bravo!

1 Like

What?

People who just want to play ground vehicles to fight other ground vehicles will continue to do it no matter what changes are going to happen and gaijin will just nerf/buff things without any reason?

It is not like it is since the beggining

1 Like

I do not see how it is “ruining” to extend the exact same thing every other tank can do to SPAAGs, which is kill damn near anything they encounter with side shot(s).

You also seem to be totally missing me also proposing to give all non-radar-equipped SPAAGs a short-range lead marker in RB going to 1.0-1.5km range at most based on crew training. This would encourage all average players to try shooting at CAS more.

How do I know such a combination of restorative antitank buffs and lead calculation assistance would work?

My evidence for how rebuffing SPAAG will in fact solve things is the 7.7-8.7 bracket. All nations get Radar SPAAG there, which are both effective vs tanks when needed and also get lead indicators to make aiming at planes about as easy as it is to use CAS.

And behold - when equipped with the proper, easy-to-effectively-use tools, the average player there routinely shoots down CAS. Anyone who doesn’t bother shooting down CAS now has no excuse to argue, because they are willingly choosing not to use or in some cases even bring the appropriate tools in their lineups.

Playerbase opinion portion of the CAS problem solved. Anyone who tries to complain is incapable of answering “well why didn’t you use Radar AA?” - precisely because there is intentionally no answer capable of conveying a victim mentality.

Lmao, forgetting that when playing a tank in order to get into SPAA, You have to die first in a tank (die to an air unit for example) meaning that problem for this palyers still exist

I’m amazed some people are still so ignorant

But what I do expect from MH4UAstragon, who said that he hates ground players because they “destroyed” game for him.

1 Like

That would require WW2 planes get CCIP to maintain balance.

So, the more the merrier? We won’t go half-way to screw over heavy tanks? Let’s GO FULL BORE!

Good idea. How about we implement this FIRST, before jumping the shark.

First of all, radar for guns is not the same as radar for missiles. No lock-and-load-fire-and-forget.
Secondly, lead indicators will certainly help in lower ranks, but it won’t help spot the SILENT and invisible-until-they-are-strafing you ww2 planes.

The “If you don’t support my suggestions you’re a loser” attitude just doesn’t cut the mustard.

Also, have you looked at some of the Tech Trees? Huge gaps in vehicles for some nations.
Japan has the Sub I-II at 5.3 and then nothing until 7.3 with the m163.
Israel starts with the weak TCM-20 to go with it’s M51 at BR 6.3. Then has to wait for the next spaa (errr… spg) ZSU-57-2 at 7.0. Not until 7.3 does it get a REAL spaa in the Hovet.
UK has the Skink (sigh) at 5.3 and the Falcon at … … EIGHT-POINT-THREE? Wow that’s a large gap.
Italy has the Contraereo at 3.5 then has to wait until 6.0 for R3 T20.

Plus you keep ignoring, again and again, the good chance that players will just continue to shoot at tanks with their improved spaa because - it’s just easier and more familiar.

1 Like

Gotta love it when player’s even at top tier have no idea how Air Alert works lol or even the tips or tricks of getting such info.

image

Air Alert:

  • Detects incoming Air units with alt info
  • Type of air unit
  • Precise direction
  • Warns the entire team
  • Very top of screen there is a white Jet, scout drone, or Heli icon that appears after the alert

If no info was collected, it will just remain as Air Alert! without details. Guy thinks ima type in chat what i detected when he clearly can see the data i collected and shared. 🤦 Sure the Spam is annoying but that’s the simplest and easiest way to spot CAS without radar.

I could see the Arcade diving sight for dedicated attackers and tactical bombers, but not fighter-bombers. Similarly, all bombsight-equipped bombers should damn well get their 3rd person bombing cross back - it was yoinked back in 1.59 for literally no reason and then repackaged as a “new” feature when CCIP jets arrived.

My point is why single out SPAAGs? It seems quite irrational when damn near any other opponent can kill your heavy in the same flank shot from a greater range of angles and much greater distance.

Both must be done in unison though. (Re)buffing their anti-tank prowess ensures the average player will actually move them out of their own spawn and into relevant positions on the map. The lead marker (being only semi-accurate just like it is in Arcade or with Radar AA) gives enough of a general idea where to aim and of course works better when planes are closer. It only showing up at short range teaches the dumb average player to hold their fire until it appears.

War Thunder sounds will forever be an enigma. Obviously yes, you should hear a plane whose engine is throttled up coming from some distance away. If the plane throttles back before diving and surprises your AA before reigniting his throttle, well that’s just a cheeky smart move on the plane’s part.

I’m not ignoring it - I do not consider people shooting at tanks with their SPAAG to be a problem at all. Rather, it is a natural consequence of the requirement to be effective with any SPAAG in WT’s gameplay. You need to move outside of your own spawn to be close enough to enemy planes at the front line to effectively engage said planes. This means unless you are really lucky, you will encounter tanks. If you cannot at least pen their sides (provided you are able to hide somewhere and they don’t see you), then you cannot safely engage any planes while enemy tanks are around. If the target is a light, a thin-skinned TD, or a thin-skinned medium, you may be able to frontally engage it.

That ain’t my attitude at all. Rather, I’ve been around these parts long enough to plainly see that some people will always complain about how supposedly “overpowered” CAS is no matter what changes, and that those people, not the CAS, are the actual problem needing to be dealt with.

Now obviously, those folk still have a right to play the game and speak their minds as they wish. Thus I only am aiming to insulate the game from their complaining, by rendering their complaining irrelevant. This entails force-feeding all players the appropriate counters to CAS, encouraging them to research more of their own counters to CAS, and enhancing the effectiveness of all counters to CAS so that nobody has any excuse left to complain they are “helpless victims” being “bullied by CAS.” This renders further onesided complaining about how “overpowered” CAS is fundamentally irrelevant, which stops any more repeats of their complaining then snowballing into more boneheaded CAS weaponry nerfs that bleed into and ruin Air RB.

My summarized attitude is: “We can’t please everybody, the community ain’t innocent, and one way or another, the CAS debate at large must be solved.”

CAS is 50% a game mechanic problem (kill cam, midair spawns, SP system in general, counters not functioning well, total lack of most real CAS objectives other than tankbusting) and 50% a player opinion one (the perception that most SPAAG before Radar tier are too outmatched vs CAS, also the SP system in general, among others). All of that is solvable if unconventional means are explored and implemented.

The default gun sights for SPAAG is terrible. It’s not even an AA reticle.

I think adding something like a radial AA sight as default would go a long way making SPAAGS for normal players a bit better against air.

Auto generated sights based on individual SPAA gun ballistics would be cool, and far better than giving SPAA lead indicators. Sadly, that would take effort by Gajin : /

1 Like

There are generic AA sights in the game

I use historicaly sights if can find them

1 Like

And the best solution is TO mode.

People who want to play tanks go play tanks, people who want combined mode play combined mode without nerfs/buffs that were implemented to please TO crowd

Being against TO is being against combined mode

4 Likes

There is no cas problem, just skill issue by aa players or bad maps for aa.

The game is balanced imo. Some maps you can easily kill enemy cas, and some maps you get easily killed by enemy cas due to map design.

1 Like

This would help a bit in RB, but mainly help in Simulator.

The reason I propose a short-range lead marker based on the Arcade one and the Radar AA one is because RB plane controls enable planes to get away with highly unrealistic flight behavior that renders them far harder to hit with SPAAG fire.

The 3rd person camera gives planes superhuman spotting capabilities to see where all the player tanks are. Many SPAAGs have distinctive silhouettes visible from quite a distance, and thus can be preemptively evaded long before the plane gets into their gun range.

Meanwhile, RB’s Mouse Aim flight controls both give aircraft weapons unrealistic accuracy, but also enable planes to dodge SPAAG fire in ways that would cause real planes to stall and crash. These jerking movements make it that much harder for SPAAG to get firing solutions on planes, unless of course the pilots are lobotomized and flying right at the SPAAG trying to strafe it.

Finally, SPAAG are in much the same boat as Bombers are in Air RB. Real SPAAG operated in coordinated groups focusing fire on single planes via radio communication, akin to Bombers with their box formations of overlapping defensive guns. Lone SPAAG and lone Bombers were and are easy pickings. In War Thunder, CAS often outnumbers the SPAAG, so a “realistic” portrayal of SPAAG will always put SPAAG at a severe disadvantage. Yet we also know with AI squadmates how troublesome AI pathfinding can be if they are meant to follow your movements and track at the same aim point.

Hence, I propose the short-range lead marker as justifiable compensation for all the unrealistic features that are so heavily baked-into all RB game modes that talk of removing them (like restricting planes to cockpit view) is frankly lunatic nonstarter.

All SPAAGs without radar, the ones with radar should it be disabled or turned off, all Heavy AAs currently classified as Tank Destroyers, and all SPHs with HE-VT shells would get this short range lead indicator. The Heavy AAs would be artificially given admittedly fake HE-VT shells because HE-TF shells are currently useless with planes moving from where you set the fuse (again a result of unrealistic plane flight behavior).

Yes there is a serious CAS problem.

To put it simply:

  1. We have a bunch of bullshit game mechanics that make it unnecessarily frustrating (like the kill camera)
  2. The intended counters are either restricted to killstreak powerup status (fighters) or are so badly hobbled below 7.7 that it requires lobotomized pilots to be killed by (SPAAG)
  3. CAS is missing the vast majority of its real objectives, some of which tanks also could perform. With nothing but each other to kill, of course entrenched fanbases for CAS and Tanks get angry at each other.
1 Like

People prefer to attack real players instead of objectives, thus adding more objectives won’t change a thing.

1 Like

And that is where things like ticket value of those objectives can come into play.

One idea I thought of was removing the 100-ticket bleed for each player tank death, but intentionally leaving it on the new proposed AI objectives (as well as of course the continuous bleed from holding more caps than the enemy team). Subtle thing, but it very well could help.

CAS has no healthy role to play currently, and never has. There are no supply lines to sever, no supply bases to bomb out, no airfields to strafe (and not be lasered out of the air by aimbot AI AAA), no fortifications hampering your side’s tanks from advancing to silence, and no opposing artillery batteries to snuff out.

There is so much untapped potential with CAS, and yet people here are only thinking of it as a revenge cudgel.