You’re generalizing the fact that all people who dislike the current implementation of CAS, dislike War Thunder as a whole. Have you talked to every single person who dislikes the current implementation of CAS in GRB? I doubt so, so you shouldn’t make claims like that.
Holistically generalizing the opinions of everyone who has any gripes with CAS in it’s current state to distort them into “they all dislike CAS”, to discredit their arguments is a strawman. Disliking the implementation of CAS in it’s current state does not mean the person dislikes the game as a whole, and as I said above – you can’t make such an assumption, even if one person may have told you that they don’t like War Thunder.
nobody wants a different game.
there is airRB, and its not a physically different videogame. neither would be TO.
its not that deep, you dont need to be shivering in fear. its just another gamemode.
This is probably one of the main reasons “CAS mains” do not embrace TO mode. They are afraid their mode of preference will not have enough targets. It will become CAS vs CAS, and a lot less productive for them.
IMO that’s selfish.
Why not?
If there’s a mode for TO, why would ground vehicle sales not make up the difference?
If tank-only ever were to happen, it would only make sense long after actually addressing all of the actual problems with how CAS works. The biggest reason I am firmly against the inclusion of such a mode is because adding said mode only enables ignoring the problems with how CAS works, doing literally nothing to solve any of its aspects.
TO doesn’t make the kill cam get removed. TO doesn’t force planes to runway spawn. TO doesn’t reform the SP system to cease making aircraft an unbalanceable powerup. TO doesn’t make SPAAG more common-sense to use in their AA role. TO doesn’t give both tanks and CAS their plethora of missing objectives. I could go on and on and on.
If I understand that situation properly, it basically suggests to me that if snail takes the awful step and caves to ONE loud, whiny minority, they then set an awful precedent and thus empower enhanced screeching from other whiny minorities who then say “well you gave the TO guys their pet mode, so will you give us ours?”
There is a lot of potential for it to snowball out of control very quickly. Granted, some splinter mode ideas I can get behind (Coastal Fleet being fully separate from Bluewater by default, Air RB EC), but there are many more splinter mode ideas that just aren’t all that much sense (Air RB Fighter-Only, Historical Matchmaking, etc.)
Sim EC has a Lobby System that sorta is a “server browser.”
I think his bigger point is that adding a copy-paste game mode minus CAS would split the playerbase first of all, and more importantly set a nasty precedent by snail caving to one whiny minority, thereby empowering several dozen others to then screech at the top of their lungs for their pet game mode(s). I think you’re underestimating how badly it could spiral out of control.
I intentionally disregard top tier because of snail’s business decision to drip-feed content intentionally unequally to “milk the imbalance” as the same (nationalistic) whales jump between trees and “follow the bias,” so to speak.
All of my proposals of “buff the counters” are generally meant in the context of stuff we already have. I do in fact understand that for quite a while top tier Russian CAS had no counter, because it was intentionally designed that way to milk whales. Once the Soviet nationalists were jerked off enough and the bills were paid, then snail proceeded to allow the necessary platforms to shoot it down with.
CAP is indeed the best solution to CAS, both in reality and ingame. I would upend the entire SP system frankly in the process of correcting the unavailability of CAP early-game.
No worries man, you’re talking to another neurodivergent person here.
I would force all planes to runway spawn, use Simulator’s SP system instead of RB’s inherently unbalanceable “earn points for vehicle” crap, which would enable both CAP and CAS to first-spawn early game. CAP will always take off faster than CAS, and CAS needs to get up high enough to give its missiles the kind of range they need to pull off stunts like this. Thus a Sim-style situation would favor CAP over CAS.
Furthermore, people throwing away most of their SP early game trying still to “CAS rush” would now doom their team by having no SP left to use tanks after their CAS got swatted down.
It’s the remnants of a once much larger emotional mess. The underlying logic I see here is that nobody can have a sensible discussion on the topic of CAS that actually gets through to the devs until all the “OP” white noise gets turned off, so to speak. Good arguments and ideas from both sides get drowned out by all the noise.
And the only way to turn off that noise is to intentionally set things up so that whenever anyone tries to complain how “OP” CAS is, those complaints can be turned back on the complainer with “well have you tried using the buffed SPAAG/SAMs or the CAP that’s now available at match start? No? Then you have no right to complain.” Those people can keep screaming all they want, but without the helpless victim mentality it will intentionally mean fuck all.
Then the rest of us adults in the room can breathe several sighs of relief now that the whiny children have been put to bed.
It would shake the game to its foundations, yes. But most of the individual points are things the game already has, and if not are relatively simple to do.
CAS in its entirety can be broken down into three main chunks:
Rage-inducing revenge mechanics that anger people (including me)
Unavailable and/or inadequate counters to CAS
Total lack of most relevant objectives for both CAS and the tanks they would kill
To solve Point 1) is a lot simpler than you might think:
Spoiler
Turn off the kill camera completely, with not even a “snapshot” of the killer’s position shown during live gameplay. The kill cam can still be a teaching tool if it were restricted only to server replays, without enabling revenge bombing.
Force all planes to runway spawn regardless of weather. This also helps make revenge bombing much less common, because it gives the target tank a lot more time to reposition. The revenge plane needs to take off, get to useful combat speed, and also climb in many cases to be able to first spot the guy he wants to kill so badly, since he wasn’t shown where the guy was due to the kill cam being gone.
Remove the giant text notifications of zones being captured. This message is frankly redundant given tickets stop flashing and we have cap icons just under the ticket bar. This message frankly translates to “there’s a stationary vehicle here, please bomb me!” to the enemy team.
Delete separated helicopter pads entirely. They once had strong AAA which was routinely shooting down planes even over the tank map. Gaijin could not figure out how to balance it, so they instead just turned it off entirely and made it cosmetic only. Helicopter weapons have enough range that enable some to hover near their pad and kill people while staying safe there. Instead, helicopters would land at the plane runway, which would have a helipad section added into its appearance off to the side of the runway. Helicopters could now land anywhere on the plane runway and repair. As helicopters were once able to land on plane runways to repair, this would be easy to code in and re-enable them to do so, paired with a cosmetic update to the runway models adding in a helipad to it.
Solving Point 2) would take a little more work, but it mostly builds on existing mechanics.
Spoiler
Giving SPAAG regardless of radars a short-range lead indicator based on Crew Rangefinding skill. This is a copy-paste of the Arcade lead indicator, without the bright red marker over the plane itself, and a range that is half or less of what Arcade shows. This teaches players who try to “go play SPAA” both where and WHEN to shoot, due to the indicator only showing at close ranges of 1.0-1.5km based on Training.
Undoing all remaining antitank belt nerfs to SPAAGs. Most of these have been undone already over time, but some holdouts like the Kugelblitz remain even after new 30mm AAs with full HVAP were added (Kugelwind).
Removing the doctrinal “emergency ammo limits” for high tier SPAAGs’ APDS and APFSDS belts. Many of these radar AAs, especially more recently, often made use of APDS for increased engagement range vs aircraft. I never understood the hate against any SPAAG killing tanks when that is what is demanded of any AA to be “effective” in War Thunder below top tier SAMs.
Add missing shells to SPAAGs for both anti-tank and anti-air usage. All but like 2 or 3 AA weapons outside of reserve tier are outright missing APCR or APDS rounds they had in reality. Germany 37mm Flak43/44, 40mm Bofors L/60 & L/70, Chinese 25mm, several nations’ 20mm guns, and all the high tier ones. All shells (from tanks, AA, and even aircraft) did not have prominent glowing tracers the target could easily see, thus there is a valid argument to add tracerless rounds for all SPAAGs that don’t have them already like the York does. High tier AAs are missing FAPDS rounds (APDS built for killing aircraft by being more prone to fragmenting upon impact).
Copy-pasting over Naval’s idea of default planes given to everyone’s lineups, expanded to also include SPAAG/SAMs where applicable. Self-explanatory here - this is first meant to ensure nobody is truly defenseless. It deals with the stubborn folk who refuse to learn the counters as a helpful side effect by laying all the tools they could need at their feet and daring them to use them. Naval did this already, which is why cries for “Naval Only Mode” died out not long after the mode really got going.
Replacing the RB Spawn Point System with the Simulator Spawn Point System, with adjustments as needed. This both solves rage-inducing mechanics and enables better counters to CAS. All players get 1000SP at match start, but cannot earn more through any means. All unit types are available to spawn at match start, both CAP and CAS. As CAP is lighter-weight, it will always get airborne first and get to combat altitude first, and thus will be able to intercept CAS before it reaches the tank map so long as plane runways are far enough away.
Solving Point 3) would indeed require a lot of work, but even that is inspired by stuff the game already has. The general point here is to give CAS a slew of better objectives to kill than player tanks, to help take as much heat off of player tanks as is humanly possible.
Spoiler
Make spawns into caps, and caps into spawns for the team controlling them. This fixes a whole slew of longstanding tank complaints. First, it enables respawning closer to map action when you get killed, making large maps no longer the chore they currently are. Second, it helps address spawn camping by giving people more places to spawn at. Third, it also helps address spawn camping by allowing would-be spawn campers to take over the enemy’s rear spawn and actually encircle them - there are countless occasions where I felt forced to spawn camp or be shot in the back even when I didn’t actually want to (the Japan map is a good example where its basically required to keep caps secure). Naval EC is code-wise based on tanks, just put on the water surface, and it already has caps like this. For the remainder of this idea dump, I will call these “Command Posts” after the OG SWBF2 caps I got the idea from long before seeing it in Naval EC. Typical [Domination] maps would go from having 4 spawns and 3 caps to having 7 total “CPs.”
Surrounding the “Command Posts” with AI-controlled Pillboxes and Towed AT Guns. Again taking a page from Naval EC, where caps there have Coastal Artillery that must be killed off to begin de-capping them. The same story would apply here, using the Pillbox models seen on several tank maps, giving them working guns, and having the guns change with BR to remain lethal no matter the tier. These would bleed tickets when killed just like players, and respawn for the team capturing the base once it is fully taken. This gives CAS an opportunity to help their team advance by preemptively destroying these.
Bringing Back the Artillery Player Tanks call on for Artillery Support, and making them use Player Artillery models. Long ago, Air AI artillery were present on tank maps, and if destroyed, tanks couldn’t call Arty support anymore. This would be brought back, but with generally much tankier player artillery models being called upon. In the future, this could also enable inclusion of artillery vehicles which would not make much sense as playable vehicles.
Bringing Back Bombing Targets on Tank maps. Self-explanatory. Most tank maps once had these as something to do for CAS, but they were so irrelevant to gameplay few people bothered. I am not completely sure how I would go about making these important, though, beyond modest chunks of tickets.
Bringing over WWM-style convoys which spawn at Bombing Targets. They spawn at match start and begin driving toward the rear spawns of the tank map, arriving 10 or 15min in if not interrupted. These do not bleed tickets when killed, but rather ADD tickets to the team for each unit arriving safely, which would be able to double the total ticket count if all of them arrived. WWM already has the elements of this, several Air RB maps also feature AI convoys like this, and Sim EC has convoys like this. Many tank maps feature roads outside the tank map leading toward it, and thus the units could drive along that.
You are not wrong for thinking this, but what you aren’t taking into account are the community aftershocks it would produce. Snail has been a stick in the mud on this for the game’s entire lifespan - doing a 180 would only encourage similarly whiny extremist camps to then get all up in arms asking for their pet modes too. Snail would not have much of a good reason to refuse those other groups after suddenly caving to one of them, so the only way to avoid that headache is to not cave to any. A whole bunch of splinter modes could very easily fracture the playerbase beyond repair.
Glad to see you understand where I am coming from. Past the remnants of my old anger and grudge, I want to see the threat of any more cases like that utterly gone from the game.
Cases like your friend’s are why CAS so badly needs its other missing objectives. Most of it was not built to just dunk on tanks, nor intended to just kill tanks. That being said, other than making them valuable via ticket loss potential, I don’t know how else to make them worth going after over player tanks or worth defending. Any ideas?
But adding such a mode would empower every other fringe sect to then ask for their splinter mode, and once snail caves to one, they lose most or all reasons not to cave to the others. Only way to avoid all that community shitshow is to not cave to any of them.
There are many other whiny minority sects in the WT playerbase with borderline religious levels of fanaticism toward their respective mode ideas. There’s too much bad blood between the TO guys and Snail for the latter to do a 180 without causing an uproar. It would serve to motivate all the other fringe sects to then ask for their various splinter modes, and put snail in an awkward position where they lack much reason to say no after just approving of TO.
The main structural arguments separate from the threat of continued playerbase splintering, however, are as follows:
some level of split between TO and CA (Combined Arms). This increases MM times for everyone.
an unequal split based on primary nation, where trees with good CAS congregate in CA and trees without much good CAS congregate in TO. This increases MM times much more by effectively disabling quite a few nation groupings.
due to the MM difficulties, full-mixed “All vs All” matches would be a lot more common, especially at certain BRs. We already have some of this with all the copy-paste slop, but it shouldn’t get worse unnecessarily.
tank maps are built with the availability of CAS to uproot people from trouble spots in mind.
tank map objectives are placed with the assumption of CAS’s presence.
due to 4) and 5), a replacement anti-camping mechanism would be essential or quite a few maps would utterly break. Alternatively, TO would need its own unique maps, which is a huge uphill battle.
All that work for very uncertain benefit in the end. But most importantly, adding such a mode would only distract from solving the pressing issues with how CAS operates.
So while I don’t support adding it, the only way I could feasibly see it being added is only after CAS is fully solved, not before. And as most of the solutions to CAS would take away much of the reason why people complain for TO in the first place, there might not be much demand for it left at that point. I also don’t think there is any real solution to avoid the playerbase uproar part I repeatedly mentioned - maybe you could have TO as a rotating Sim-style event? But even that would raise a fuss…
That would provoke a half-baked response which would make things worse for everybody. See the whole Parts & FPE uproar, the “win” we thought we got, and then not long after high tier tanks got stuck with no default darts (which to me looked an awful lot like spiteful retribution for the Parts-FPE debacle).
Naval already does it though. Stuff you grind and bring yourself would intentionally be better, but the defaults are to ensure everyone has the tools to help themselves.
Not my fault if you don’t want to adapt.
Because those people proceeded to kick down the doors to a local sandwich shop, demand they make them a pizza, and throw a big fit when the owner says “no, we don’t make pizza here.” Such people need to be shown the door if they don’t behave themselves.
Comparing to Air RB is a poor example, because it was here first and thus is grandfathered-in. WT’s last chance to add modes just for other vehicles came and went with the launch of WTM, which had tanks first before aircraft. But they didn’t - what does that tell you?
I’d accept it and move on, maybe not initially, but I would eventually get the memo, or proceed to adapt to the rules of the game. Why won’t you?
What are you even talking about ?
TO would be a “splinter mode” just like ARB is at the moment.
You don’t need CAS to flush people from their spots. I still have to play a map where I was like: “Oh damn, I need CAS to kill that guy shooting from there”.
TO can exist on it’s own without the need to change anything map related.
If you want that, go play GSB.
No one is asking for MBT/light/TD-only mode, so TO wouldn’t create a precedent for any of those.
ARB already has set a precedent for TO’s addition, you like it or not.
And you know this how ?
They’re doing everything to make Naval interesting to players, as it’s pretty much a dead mode at the moment.
You can’t adapt to something inherently out of your control.
It’s simply unbalanced at it’s core.
You’re now trying to make people that want to play tanks without aircraft’s interference some sort of a bad guy, which is quite interesting.
Asking for a new mode is perfectly fine, more so if that mode would encompass a large part of the game.
Another naive statement from you.
Gaijin is a company and WT is their product that they’re trying to make money off of, so thinking that something is staying just because it’s “grandfathered-in” is just, as I said, naive.
Based off your answers here, I highly doubt you would.
TO’s premise is “I don’t like CAS, let’s push for a mode just like the existing one, minus CAS (whatever the consequences)!”
It is a spinoff mode or splinter mode, fracturing part of the current GRB playerbase into a separate queue.
Air RB would also be a splinter mode had the Combined Arms been the first and only game mode the game had initially. The last chance WT had to approve TO without inciting as much potential controversy was when WT Mobile launched, because unlike the main game, it had tanks first, not planes, which were added later.
You and I don’t, because we already have possibly a decade plus of map knowledge of where to go and what to look out for.
The average player does not have such intuition, and instead throws a fit because of “campers” if he/she isn’t able to “do something” about them.
The same logic is why World of Tanks has artillery with the invisible helicopter vantage point.
Again, for experienced users like us, maybe. But for the average player, no, many maps would utterly break. Doubly or triply so for the folk who buy top tier premiums and can barely figure out the controls.
RB’s SP system does many things wrong, one of the big ones being CAS. But it also in general is highly prone to snowballing for the first team getting a few easy kills or caps via the concept of SP earnings. And then people like you or I wonder why so many matches routinely end in curbstomps with it being very rare for a truly satisfying back & forth slugfest - this SP system is why.
Thus, using Sim’s SP system would also help solve tank main complaints totally unrelated to CAS.
Not yet they aren’t. But I would not put it past certain portions of this game’s community to start pushing for modes like that if TO got suddenly approved after years of consistent resistance to the idea on the devs’ part.
Not really - it truly is a “special case” only because it was grandfathered-in. Developmental work on Air RB beyond chucking in new vehicles has pretty much ground to a halt years ago (not that you would know).
Because WT Mobile started with tanks and ships, adding planes afterwards, that was the last real justifiable opportunity to try out TO. And they didn’t.
The Parts & FPE debacle. A spokesperson/streamer for the game company said one off-the-cuff comment after people annoyed him endlessly, his comment made the community go ballistic, Gaijin eventually caved to shut up the uproar, and then a few months later, stock HEATFS was forced on everyone, making the stock experience pretty much unchanged in a numerical sense, as the total amount of modifications RP shaved off the cost of Parts+FPE now had to be earned for the initial dart (if your tank even had that). You cannot tell me that said turn of events wasn’t a spiteful move in response to the Parts+FPE uproar.
Ever since, I have rightfully had concern over what sort of things Snail would pull if another similar situation erupted. And with all the “forum bloodshed” over the CAS issues, there’s no way to add TO now without causing some sort of uproar.
And Naval can serve to teach the other game modes some things. Such as how to put whiny minorities in their deserved place while maintaining plausible deniability - they never outright stated the default planes were to prevent the “naval only mode” crap from getting out of hand, but the withering away of that “movement” is exactly what happened.
That is why I know a corresponding change in Ground RB will “solve” the TO Debate, for good.
And a good riddance to said debate it will be. IDGAF what your preferences are with vehicle usage, but intentionally NOT using all the available tools in a video game should not be grounds for asking for special treatment. You’re doing it to yourself - all I would do is ensure you are actually doing it to yourself so you have no excuse to complain BUT your own preferences. Then it is a you problem, not the game’s.
How is deciding to learn how to use CAP “inherently out of your control?” I will admit revenge bombing kinda is due to shitty game mechanics that I would see removed immediately if I were able to do so, but you DO have at least some means to fight back, if you pick the right platform.
All my proposed changes would serve to expand access to potential counters, both in the air and on the ground.
CAS as a powerup that one “earns” sure is “unbalanced at its core,” that is why I propose using Simulator’s SP system instead of RB’s.
It doesn’t matter what you set the SP cost for CAS to in RB, under the current system, one team will always get it up before the other, who then whines about being on the receiving end. The changes I propose would ensure anyone who wants to try countering it would now be able to. Is that not a good thing?
You read the rules of the game and demand special treatment, then folk like you keep throwing fits whenever either a fancy new CAS weapon is added or some existing one is changed in any sort of positive manner, hence where I got the comparison. You are the problem.
If not for the history of folk like you throwing fits about seemingly every kind of CAS weapon imaginable, asking for a new mode would be perfectly fine.
A better comparison then would be that you took a big shit in the local swimming pool, and now are demanding a totally separate swimming pool while threatening to do so again if you don’t.
Just look at the game’s history, man. If split-vehicle modes were so critically important to the devs, they would have made them work already. They would have at least given it a real try upon launching WTM, where now things were reversed and tanks, not planes, were “grandfathered-in.”
But they didn’t. What does that tell you?
I eventually would. Might take me a while to get over myself, but I know I eventually would.
The more you post, the more desperate you sound, in not wanting another mode to be implemented.
Why can’t you just accept the fact there is a core of players who want the ground experience without the air experience being included. You make it out to be like a personal attack on you, and it isn’t.
I’m not desperate - I just want to see an end to the threat of boneheaded CAS nerfs.
Because it IS and WAS a personal attack on me.
The refusal of folk like you to adapt caused countless CAS weapons to be utterly butchered in every single game mode. And I was one of the people who paid the price - planes I was minding my own damn business enjoying in Air RB and Sim EC exclusively were irreparably destroyed in all relevance, even today, because of folk like you. Was it what you directly asked snail for? No, but it’s what your actions caused.
Therefore, you don’t deserve your pet mode, at least not anymore. Not after all the shit folk like you put everyone else through.
It ain’t a “core” of players, either, otherwise snail would have listened to you years ago.
It’s a bunch of pseudo-religious zealot borderline terrorists. Threatening to keep blowing up the entire game anytime anything potentially positive about CAS takes place, until you get your “promised land” game mode.
Go elsewhere. Games catering to your ilk already exist, some of which were founded by ex-WT players, even.
Premise: If planes can play without interference, why tanks couldn’t ?
ARB is splintering the playerbase already as GRB does in fact allow aircraft to be spawned.
What came first doesn’t hold any weight there.
So that’s the problem they should figure out by playing the game and actually getting better at it while doing that. CAS is simply a crutch for people wanting to eliminate people in “OP spots”.
Good thing is that no one would force you to play TO if you thought it’s so hard to flush someone out from a position without CAS.
Or the fact that people will 1DL for various reasons that are out of anyone’s control, especially players’ ?
It really wouldn’t.
Again, precedent for those wouldn’t be set by TO.
I don’t think GRB as a whole changed much (if any) in years either.
No one is even asking for NO because no one plays that mode to begin with.
Even our PvE modes are played more than Naval lol.
This is a pretty lame statement if I’m being honest.
Asking for TO isn’t even special treatment as planes only mode exists already and is not being removed. As far as I can tell, both military branches are of similar size, so giving both equal things isn’t preferential treatment, rather equality.
It is indeed the game’s problem for not treating all of their similarly sized military branches equally.
Because your tank being helpless against air is out of your control ?
You are inherently useless in that engagement.
Not before I get killed in an unfair and unsportsmanlike fashion.
Of course if you don’t imply we should all first spawn in a plane or AA, which is absurd from the get go.
You really aren’t getting it.
Same as above.
CAS killing tanks is the thing that’s unbalanced at it’s core and cannot be changed.
First of all, I already explained how it’s not special treatment, rather a matter of equality.
CAS has been oppressive throughout the years and is almost always one step ahead from it’s ground counters. People are rightfully angry as things aren’t changing.
Someone spawning a SPAA that’s utterly useless at it’s job will make people upset, that’s how things go.
It’s more than a reasonable response to absolute cancer that is often straight up uncounterable from the ground.
The only problem is that CAS is the one here that’s shitting up the pool.
GRB is clearly focused around ground units, so CAS being obnoxiously strong will rile up people, rightfully so.
Tells me they’re satisfied with their income per amount of work, so doing nothing is actually acceptable ?
They’re just pushing out vehicles every single update with few map reskins every now and then. Core gameplay hasn’t changed in a long while.
You’re blind to the fact it’s not happening as long as we have GRB as the only mode where tanks can play.
It’s actually because of Gaijin being incompetent, but good job pinning it to the players that didn’t want to be abused by CAS. I wanted to adapt but seeing how my IR SAM is unable to lock a helicopter at it’s operating range tells you enough.
Reasoning of a petulant child lol.
Didn’t took you long to completely lose your mind.
Games catering to Air enjoyers already exist, so you can freely go there if you don’t like what’s being done to you here. You seriously have messed up arguments and think that you’re the only that matters in all of this. Rage couldn’t be contained.
Not to mention, tank premiums are bringing a lot of money to Gaijin, so I’m sure they wouldn’t agree with you steering away a sizeable part of the community and spenders to competitors.