The skill of some brain dead spaa players is a problem, the amount of time i see CS/SA5 players using AP belts or gepard shooting at 5km distance is unreal. Or Pantsir players just… standing there not doing anything while I or the enemy climbs up.
Sometimes a single atgm is enough for a s1, even though it can intercept up to 7 at a time with little to no issue.
Not only that, but it was also given a serious test in years past (2019 I think?) over a random weekend. And I guess it was not popular enough to ever see a comeback.
I personally think such a mode is unnecessary provided you address what is actually problematic about CAS.
IMHO, dying to CAS in a tank is not the problem. The problem from my perspective has always been a combination of 1) idiotic game mechanics encouraging its use for petty revenge 2) the counters in many cases being unavailable when needed/inadequate at most BRs and 3) CAS having nothing better to do than dunk on player tanks when IRL direct tankbusting was a small minority of what CAS did.
Adding a new game mode w/o CAS would allow a player who is overly frustrated at CAS to just ignore the problems with how CAS works, but said mode does nothing to actually correct those issues. If anything it would likely worsen them.
They will never correct those issues. There will be too much outrage if CAS can’t destroy tanks at will.
As I’ve posted before, one way to start is to give spaa stealth belts. We know they exist because planes use them. Why not for spaa?
Barring some drastic changes to how CAS interacts with ground (I just don’t see it happening) the Ground Only mode should be added. How hard can that be? The “ground” part is already there. Just remove the air part.
The ability for CAS to destroy player tanks isn’t a problem per se - it being the only thing CAS has to do while being relevant IS. CAS has no “healthy” way to contribute to the gameplay loop currently. In addition to sleazy revenge mechanics, unavailable/inadequate counters (of which your idea of SPAAG stealth belts I FULLY agree with), and a total lack of the majority of real objectives for both CAS and tanks to accomplish.
CAS and Tanks are currently thrown into a barrel-sized pressure cooker with nothing to kill but each other. Of course it’s gonna suck - neither is built primarily to take out the other save for some oddball specialized planes like the Duck.
I do see at least some potential for drastic changes taking place, because we have the foundational mechanics to expand upon in the game already.
For example, high tier tanks all get drones and strike drones - how hard would it be to expand on that idea and take a page from Naval so all players regardless of their aviation preferences get both fighters and CAS with preset loadouts in their lineups by default that are free to repair? Then every user has aircraft of their own to counter enemy aircraft, guaranteed.
If they then still choose to complain about CAS, it’s now their fault, not the game’s. “Tank-Only Players” would effectively cease to exist, which is a net benefit for a game that markets itself on its combined arms aspects. If the game gives you all possible tools and you choose not to use some of them, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get blasted by something best-countered by one of the tools you haven’t learned to use.
Giving SPAAGs that lack radars a short-range lead indicator can straight-up copy the one from arcade but make the range it shows up half or less.
Removing the kill camera from live matches and forcing all planes to runway spawn are also piss-easy to do and would go an immense way to truly solving the otherwise endless CAS debate.
The concept of tying spawn zones to caps has existed in the game for years, both in the old [Break] mode and also Naval EC. This would free tanks from the fishbowl maps that make finding tanks as CAS so easy, greatly cut down on spawn camping, and just give tanks more room to move.
The artillery support tanks call upon were once a map target outside the tank map for planes to go kill, why not bring this back but make the artillery use player tank models like the M44, M55, or various high tier SPHs? Gives planes something else that is actually relevant to match outcome to go kill that can’t go jump on the forums and whine endlessly.
The problem is the ability to whine in and of itself, it obscures the mechanical flaws with how CAS works in a big cloud of aerosolized piss from people screeching “CAS OP!!” at the top of their lungs.
While I might agree on the aircraft aviability similiar to naval, “tank-only” is also matter of preference, not matter of someone utilizing tool.
And its completly legitimate preference.
Im not die-hard tank-only mode fan, but I absolutely understand why there are some people that would want to focus on tank to tank gameplay without having to use vehicle classes (be it SPAA or CAS or CAP) that do not interest them slightly.
Correct, there’s nothing wrong with preferring tanks. But I have seen too many individuals both claim they would “prefer just tanks” and then also use that preference as an excuse to complain about CAS.
The point is to (as a part of a broader overhaul for CAS in general) make dying to CAS entirely the fault of the would-be whiner. Give them the tools they could help themselves with if they would only get over their “preferences.” If they still choose not to, they’re beyond help, and can no longer play victim claiming CAS is “OP.”
Indeed, and there are several other games already catering to this, with some even pretty explicitly stating they were made “to not have to deal with horrendous grinds to reach modern weaponry and not to deal with being killed by aircraft from miles away” which is on Gunner, HEAT, PC’s main webpage. It was literally made by current and ex-WT players who got sick of CAS and grind.
The point of such a change I propose is partially punitive - it’s to rip the rug out from under the people who keep complaining about CAS no matter what gets changed about it. Which then reduces them to the same level of irrelevance as all the “but muh Tiger” History Channel types.
thats still a legitimate preference, just like gun only top tier (as much as i like to glaze it, i can understand why people would want to play that).
I agree.
Im not entirely sure that I vibe with such thought process.
You want to essentially “force” them to get over their preferences and see it as legitimate want, fair enough.
But, hypothetically, suppose situation was reversed - how would you feel if someone tried to force you over your preferences, whatever they might be?
Again, Im not entirely sure I vibe with such thought process.
“Just play another game bro” - sure, but my progress wouldnt carry over, id have to convince lot of my friends to switch over too (and THEIR progress wouldnt carry over), the choices would be much more limited (AFAIK Gunner, HEAT, PC offers only cold war vehicles, not WW2 ones and its only US vs. Soviet Union; might be wrong about that tho), and most importantly, IIRC theres no multiplayer (again might be wrong about that), and even if there was, player pool would be much more smaller.
Sure, I can play Sprocket all day, but using the tanks in game is only entertaining so far against bots.
Again, hypothetically, suppose situation was reversed - how would you feel if you were told to “just play another game”?
Thast probably why I dont vibe with it lol.
Not for Warthunder. Some people like competitive FPS shooters, but when TF2 (a very casual game) was overhauled to appeal to comp, it nearly killed the game entirely.
But hypothetical TO only mode wouldnt be overhaul, it would be adding another official game mode next to already existing ones.
its been a while since ive played TF2, but IIRC you can queue for specific game mode, be it payload, capture the flag etc. Usefulness of each class (and items) varies between each mode.
I started this game playing aircraft in Air modes. In particular I enjoyed playing CAS in Air modes. Then all of a sudden the particular kind of CAS I enjoyed most (cannon CAS) got absolutely butchered because some people could not be bothered to go learn to fly the aircraft they had available to them and shoot down the planes capable of spamming it at the time, and instead whined and whined and whined until snail overreacted with a 16-fold neutering the gun in question still hasn’t recovered from.
That cycle didn’t just happen once, it kept happening, to a multitude of different CAS weapons. Whole planes or even whole lines of planes were rendered utterly worthless. Again and again it went, where there was always some other CAS weapon that oftentimes the same damn people were complaining about. And it is still happening to this day, albeit to a lesser degree.
I simply realized those people are the problem, not so much the CAS they were complaining about. Neither you nor I can hope to change their opinions. But what can be done is to leave all possible counters they could ever ask for at their feet to remove the excuse to keep complaining. Then if they still choose to complain, it’s now their own damn fault.
The point is to “stop the bleeding” from the CAS debate that said debate keeps inflicting on the entire game, by shutting down the means CAS’s detractors have to complain in the first place. Co-opt the legitimate gripes such people have, and throw the ones that are their own stubbornness back in their faces.
If I were in such a situation, I’d probably just leave and find another game if I hated the current one that badly. Or I would attempt to adapt.
To my understanding GHPC is planning to add multiplayer once they get their core mechanics developed and properly fleshed out. Multiplayer being thrown in day 1 is only asking for utter chaos.
Imagine if again and again, some of your favorite aircraft to use got irreparably butchered due to the endless whining of people who don’t even play the same game mode as you. And then when you go check out that other game mode they’re in, you see quite clearly that said folk have some tools they could help themselves with but are choosing not to use them. And you wonder why I got pissed?
TO would have the exact same effect on WT as Meet Your Match had on TF2. Matchmaking would be changed for the worse, Gajin’s response to balancing would degrade, and the community would be split.
I have never played TF2, mind elaborating? I’m curious if any of the general logic there could be explored to finally put down the entire CAS debate once and for all.
Because regardless of what “side” any player may be on, can’t most of us agree that the endless pissing war on the topic damages the entire game of War Thunder as a whole?
I could name one or two particular examples where criticism of no aviable counter to a CAS weapon was justified. But I digress.
eh. will burn that bridge when we get to it.
thats more of an issue of two entirely different modes sharing balancing decisions.
I understand your angle tho, back when WoNY expansion for Division 2 released, there was period of game balance where only legitimate rifle to use, in game that was 90% PvE, was M14, and it got nerfed in PvE because PvP players complained about it being too strong.
Solution came in a form of nerf only to its PvP damage. But thats something we cannot have in Warthunder, as it is fundamentally different game.
And while I do understand your angle, I do not agree with it, at least not fully.
I will give you response tommorow once its not 3AM and im not running on fourth cup of coffee, as I have to look up what meet your match did.
It’s kinda hard to really express the full weight of the effects of Meet Your Match in a WT forum post. To give you an idea of how badly it effected TF2, a YouTuber called Zesty Jesus uploaded a four hour long video on it. It’s not a slow-paced video either.
Basically, VALVe tried to make updates for (essentialy) two separate games, and they also tried to make TF2 the next big ESport. When those both (expectedly) didn’t end well, instead of saaaay reverting the changes, they just said screw it and abandoned TF2 altogether.
Gajin seems to really like doing stuff like that. They refuse to revert bad updates, for some reason, and love just abandoning features that don’t work well (Heli PvE).
I always see the 2 sides of a bad spaa player.
The spaa that wants to play as anti-tank, very common issue i see while playing ground or playing cas in the opossite team.
Low iq players that even having a radar cant spot planes and looking anywhere else except the target. Also while im doing the air alert thing spaa still clueless (also applies for tanks with FnF atgm and doesnt use it on choppers)
I agree with a lot you said in that post, but not this.
I have very little interest in using a plane in this mode. There’s already a mode dedicated to air combat.
My interest in playing this game is for tanks. So offering me a plane in order to counter other planes is just a no-go. I think you really don’t understand what some of the players are looking for.
That’s wouldn’t be completely useless, at least some pilots sees bullets coming will stop doing what they are doing and resets, some helicopter will stop hovering in place so they eventually lose the lock on target. If the plane is in a dogfight and on your mate’s tail, filling the sky with leads will actually cause them to make some maneuvers which eventually allows your teammate to turn the tables. Some targets will always stay out of the range of AA’s effective range, Gepards can’t kill it at least they can do something about it by disrupting their flow
You play the ahead to intercept munition primarily
Indeed, and those are cases where instead of shout “CAS OP,” which snail translates as “better nerf CAS,” the far better option would be to empower a counter and dare the whiners to go shut up and use it.
Yes, that same concept is pretty much exactly what I feel.
Initially I did want “revenge” against such folk. These days though, I just want the bitching to stop or at least be rendered as irrelevant to game balancing as “but muh Tiger” History Channel fanboys. I simply don’t see the game as able to truly get down to the bottom of the CAS mess without adopting a preventative “anti-whining” stance of sorts.
This means things like:
Etc. etc. Stuff like that. Make the counters so good and so everpresent that no sane individual has any reasonable excuse not to go at least try and help themselves against the CAS that bothers them so much.
It doesn’t actually force said people to change - it just makes the offer to change their ways too good to refuse. Ultimately they decide if they change their ways or not in the end.