But hypothetical TO only mode wouldnt be overhaul, it would be adding another official game mode next to already existing ones.
its been a while since ive played TF2, but IIRC you can queue for specific game mode, be it payload, capture the flag etc. Usefulness of each class (and items) varies between each mode.
TO would have the exact same effect on WT as Meet Your Match had on TF2. Matchmaking would be changed for the worse, Gajin’s response to balancing would degrade, and the community would be split.
I could name one or two particular examples where criticism of no aviable counter to a CAS weapon was justified. But I digress.
eh. will burn that bridge when we get to it.
thats more of an issue of two entirely different modes sharing balancing decisions.
I understand your angle tho, back when WoNY expansion for Division 2 released, there was period of game balance where only legitimate rifle to use, in game that was 90% PvE, was M14, and it got nerfed in PvE because PvP players complained about it being too strong.
Solution came in a form of nerf only to its PvP damage. But thats something we cannot have in Warthunder, as it is fundamentally different game.
And while I do understand your angle, I do not agree with it, at least not fully.
I will give you response tommorow once its not 3AM and im not running on fourth cup of coffee, as I have to look up what meet your match did.
It’s kinda hard to really express the full weight of the effects of Meet Your Match in a WT forum post. To give you an idea of how badly it effected TF2, a YouTuber called Zesty Jesus uploaded a four hour long video on it. It’s not a slow-paced video either.
Basically, VALVe tried to make updates for (essentialy) two separate games, and they also tried to make TF2 the next big ESport. When those both (expectedly) didn’t end well, instead of saaaay reverting the changes, they just said screw it and abandoned TF2 altogether.
Gajin seems to really like doing stuff like that. They refuse to revert bad updates, for some reason, and love just abandoning features that don’t work well (Heli PvE).
I always see the 2 sides of a bad spaa player.
The spaa that wants to play as anti-tank, very common issue i see while playing ground or playing cas in the opossite team.
Low iq players that even having a radar cant spot planes and looking anywhere else except the target. Also while im doing the air alert thing spaa still clueless (also applies for tanks with FnF atgm and doesnt use it on choppers)
I agree with a lot you said in that post, but not this.
I have very little interest in using a plane in this mode. There’s already a mode dedicated to air combat.
My interest in playing this game is for tanks. So offering me a plane in order to counter other planes is just a no-go. I think you really don’t understand what some of the players are looking for.
That’s wouldn’t be completely useless, at least some pilots sees bullets coming will stop doing what they are doing and resets, some helicopter will stop hovering in place so they eventually lose the lock on target. If the plane is in a dogfight and on your mate’s tail, filling the sky with leads will actually cause them to make some maneuvers which eventually allows your teammate to turn the tables. Some targets will always stay out of the range of AA’s effective range, Gepards can’t kill it at least they can do something about it by disrupting their flow
You play the ahead to intercept munition primarily
My comment its not meant to change things or nerf. Its just my point of view of the problems some spaa players commits.
Its a matter of player issue than a game mecanic issue.
I also like to kill tanks with spaa like wiesel or m19, but every player should focus air targets first if they are using spaa imo.
On the contrary, Prop CAS doesn’t make any change for the win rate, even though the USSR got YAK9K with powerful APHE. The current SP system makes it even worse, most of the complaints of CAS is due to skill issues of players, which also becomes the primary driving force behind SP system change. More interesting thing is, as the Colian get powerful APHE with armor bugs, German winrate suddenly moves to an amazing level.
The main solution should not focus on how to nerf CAS or other vehicles, but only if they can make a huge impact for the current balance. Unfortunately, Colian is that one. Anti CAS shouldn’t only consider nerfing the SP or any other system, we need more good planes and LT to make sure all of nation get same level CAS or SPAA. CAS is also part of GRB, The worst situation is already show up at high BR 8.0-9.0, the CAS is almost extinct due to powerful radar SPAAs.
For example - where can I practice munition interception other than during battle? Learning how to do something during actual battle is a bit too late, don’t you think?
to be fair, what you pretty much described is “CAS OP!!”.
CAS has one objective, and no counters. its a simple issue, and the only thing standing between us and the easy fix is gaijins greed for money.
conceptually there is nothing wrong with tank-only, and it still fits into the war thunder “combined arms” image, because this sort of image is only shown in far-fetched arcade commercials.
and regardless of image or “intended gameplay”, if the gameplay is objectively bad, something needs to be done about it (whether a massive buff to SPAA, nerf to CAS, or adding tank-only).
TO isnt comparable to Meet Your Match
matchmaking is already as bad as it will ever get, i dont see any reason why anything would get worse
it wouldnt, it has zero reason to.
the only difference would be SPAA balancing, which is a tiny aspect
the community is already split between ground and CAS players, TO wouldnt introduce any new “splits”
all of your points are hallucinated and unsubstantiated
Allright so now that I had time to read upon the Meet Your Match update, this analogy isnt accurate.
Meet Your Match “saw the official release of Competitive Mode matchmaking and PASS Time, introduced Casual Mode matchmaking.” (source)
"For the longest time the way you played was just picking a server from a list and chilling there until you got a map you didn’t like or got bored. It’s a game where you can make your own servers and maps for people to play on using the same tools as the devs.
Quick play and the later casual matchmaking were both blamed for killing this vibe, creating a loss of the community pub atmosphere and making everyone simply leave and requeue after every game. On release, the latter wasn’t asked for and barely functioned: You were punished for leaving a “casual” game and couldn’t so much as choose what maps you wanted to play on.
But, maybe you’re talking about competitive matchmaking. This was Valve’s attempt at bridging their casual and competitive player base by making it so you can get 6v6 games on demand without having to resort to community made resources. The problem is, people who already played comp didn’t like it being watered down and having no class limits or item bans compared to what they could already play. Casual players didn’t feel catered to thanks to a mediocre ranking system putting them in battles with b4nny and other issues. It basically failed to appeal to anyone by being a bad middle ground." (source)
So, Meet Your Match replaced server browser with quickplay (Warthunder doesnt have server browser and has been essentially “quickplay” for as long as I remember, you just choose a game mode) and introduced poorly made competetive mode which is effectively ranked mode (which Warthunder doesnt have).
Introducing TO only mode would be akin to introducing payload game mode to the game that has both conquest and team deathmatch as its main game modes. It doesnt replace anything, and its not ranked. Joining “TO only” would ideally be no different to selecting to queue into Arcade Ground or Realistic Ground, less ideally like joining SIM game.
tl;dr your analogy does not really work, MyM affected matchmaker as a whole and changed how it works, TO only would be only additional game mode.
If only multi launcher SAMs weren’t subject to frontline combat, we really do need better spawns and new locations for them. Preferably spawns in random locations so that looking for them becomes more of challenge like SEAD.
allright but then you reach Warthunder specific limitations so “empowering” the counter isnt always viable option.
Two examples I was talking about was Kh-38MT and LMURs.
Lets take Kh-38MT for example for now.
Up until Leviathans, which saw addition of IRIS-T SLM, main complaint was tied to the fact that no SPAA in game could
Complaitns in this case were entirely justified, moreso from Italy and Israel players, that did not even have proper top tier AA at that time.
So, how this couldve been solved?
A) Gaijin couldve simply buffed the SPAAs - but this would be problematic as they would become unrealistic. you cant make a 12km range missile suddenly have 20km range, or make SACLOS missile suddenly FnF (this is the warthunders specific problem ive talked about)
B) Gaijin couldve simply introduced better AA systems - this is what we eventually got, after at least a year and something (from Su-34 introduction) and year and a half since introduction of Kh-38MTs (on Su-25SM3). Clearly a year and something gap in capability is terrible for the health of the game (and playerbase sanity)
C) “Just spawn CAP” - perfectly viable solution, and it might look like the easiest one to do.
But, as with everything, theres lot of nuance. CAP vs CAS interaction goes a lot deeper, especially at top tier. Lets focus only on the Su-34/Kh-38MT example for now and ignore CAP vs CAS interaction at lower tiers.
Lets set up a theoretical scenario to demonstrate how things were back then before the addition of IRIS-T SLM. Take the following with bit of salt, english isnt my first language so i might have not put it in words properly and it might sound too autistic.
Lets take this video video as example of our theoretical scenario. Its year old, obviously meta changed a lot since then with both SP cost increase and new gen of SPAAs, but for my example it works perfectly.
Su-34 player is able to spawn fully loaded plane with only three assists, two of which were awarded through scouting (separate issue but figured id mention it). He spawns at 0:12, some 15km away from the battlefield (so outside of effective range of all then top tier AAs bar russian Pantsir, which it will see extremely rarely). While the footage is sped up between him spawning and launching first missile, its just 11 seconds before hes in position to start his attack at 0:23. At that point, hes within maximum range of VT1 but still outside its effective range.
To provide perfect counter to Su-34, I would need to actually prevent Su-34 from launching its payload. (Less ideally, I would need to simply shoot down the Su-34, with no regards to launch prevention, but such solution does not preserve up to six friendly tanks on the battlefield).
Lets say that part of the video from spawn to start of his attack was sped up two times, so thats 11*2= 22 seconds. Thus, 22 seconds is my interception window.
If I were to spawn in a CAP plane as soon as he did spawn his Su-34, and launched AMRAAM at him as soon as I spawned, my AMRAAM would have to travel twice the distance (assuming it would spawn me at same distance and alt but on the other side of the airspace), so 30km.
Test drive shows me that AMRAAM launched from Hornet at the same alt will reach 15km distant target in 26 seconds. So lets assume it will reach 30km distant target in 52 seconds.
Are you starting to see the problem?
Even if I spawned my CAP at the exact same moment as Su-34, I still wouldnt be able to intercept him in time. He would already finish his attack run before my missile would cross half of the distrance.
And even this entire theoretical situation hinges on the fact that Su-34 wont be defending but flying perfectly straight to the battlefield.
Even if the whole video from him spawning to start of his attack was sped up three times, thats 33 seconds, which is still less than what it takes my AMRAAM to cross the map.
So, in order to actually prevent Su-34 from releasing its payload, Id have to spawn much sooner, and actually get closer to his spawn.
If two players of equal skill level take the same amount of time to spawn in their respective CAS/CAP jet, CAS player still has massive advantage over CAP.
tl;dr CAP is viable solution, but its far from optimal in certain scenarios.
Youve been pretty reasonable so far in convos with me, but this sounds like its more emotional argument rather than logical.
Allright, but lets be realistic - implementing all of your listed points would shake the game quite a bit at its foundations, ie. it would be difficult, if not impossible, to implement.
Compare that to introduction of separate TO only mode, which would take much less changing and balancing, and as such, less resources and time on Gaijins part.
If the “whiners” move to the mode where they have no reason to whine about CAS (and therefore asking for further nerfs to it), while people that dont mind CAS remains in the general AGB/RGB doesnt that also achieve your goal of “I just want the whinning to stop” but with less time and resources spend?
I understand that (hence my Division/M14 analogy). But this only supports the point i made - that this is the resulting issue of having single set of balancing decisions for two entirely different game modes with different needs and metas.
Friend of mine here is constantly putting forth the idea of SEAD finally coming to game, as he wants to use his Tornado with ALARMs and other A2G ordnance to run complex sorties in sim. He would also love to have FnF Brimstones with mMW seeker.(you can probably guess who that is lol).
Do I understand his want for SEAD and FnF Brimstones in ARB and SIM? Absolutely. He also put forth very convincing argument, that currently AI SPAA is broken as f*** and tracks (as well lands hits) at ranges vastly exceeding their GRB player controled effective ranges as well as it perfectly tracks through terrain.
But at the same time, introduction of FnF Brimstones and SEAD would be end of GRB as we know it. Why would you even spawn in a tank or even AA if you could get countered by plane outside of your effective range that you were never able to see and thus react to? It would turn into another AAB/ARB, just with annoying extra step neccesary to hop into a plane. At that point straight up remove tanks, theyre just a speedbump.
it would be minimum 10 times easier (and less disruptive) to implement the tank-only gamemode, not to mention the number of reasons why gaijin would never do this in the first place
You seem to be missing the entire point. Meet You Match wasn’t just VALVe screwing up matchmaking. Meet Your Match was the first in a series of really bad choices by VALVe, and a shift in how VALVe treated TF2 that slowly killed the it.
Gajin already does a lot of the stuff that VALVe was doing after Meet Your Match. Everything that went wrong with Meet Your Match would apply to TO. The effects wouldn’t be as extreme, I’ll give you that, but it’s still just not a good idea.
So what was the point of the analogy?
Because if the point was that series of poor decisions lead to decline of TF2, fair, but thats highly highly vague analogy then. Ad absurdum, 9/11 was also just a series of poor decisions on behalf of lot of people (obviously it wasnt just a series of poor decisions, but you get the idea).
Since MyM was mostly related how matchamker works, while TO is only additional game mode, I believe this would be slippery slope fallacy if you dont want to give more specific example as how would TO only mode lead to decline of WT as a whole.