How player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

Thats a matter of trading strengths and weaknesses.

Your beloved Nashorn has all its strengths in one spot, long ranged combat against tanks, and it comes at the cost of being very weak in other areas, being open topped and slow.

Meanwhile something like an M4 Sherman is more of a middle ground approach. It isn’t the best at anything but its capable of most things. The gun can’t pen everything but it can pen most things if you know where to aim. Its not the fastest but its not slow either. The roof 50 isn’t as good as dedicated SPAA but it can take out planes when used skillfully.

Shifting to planes, the Pe-8 with its massive bomb can wipe out many tanks but, even with one of the better defensive armaments on a bomber, is pretty easy to kill with fighter. Most strikers trade dogfighting capability for more ground pounding. A fighter-bomber falls between a striker and dedicated fighter, the latter of which typically can’t do much against ground vehicles that aren’t open topped or very light.

[gangsterism]

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[Pale_Horse_Rider]

@gangsterism

CAS player,

@gangsterism

ground players

This is a false dichotomy. All “CAS players” are also ground players.

The real dichotomy is between players who utilize all the tools available to them (planes and tanks) vs players who only use some of the tools available to them.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@gangsterism

any skill issue youre talking about is irrelevant in this discussion

CAS hater’s skill issue forms the backbone of CAS balance issues.

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

Imagine entering an MMA tournament, choosing to fight with one hand tied behind your back, and then complaining that the other fighters are using both hands.

[gangsterism]

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[ULQ_LOVER]

@Pale_Horse_Rider

Your beloved Nashorn

Nashorn is just an example of many ground units.

@Pale_Horse_Rider

The roof 50 isn’t as good as dedicated SPAA but it can take out planes when used skillfully.

Especially that it has limited angle so any player who knows it will attack it from an angle that 12.7mm can’t fire at ;).

@Pale_Horse_Rider

Shifting to planes, the Pe-8 with its massive bomb can wipe out many tanks but, even with one of the better defensive armaments on a bomber, is pretty easy to kill with fighter.

If only I had that issue in Ground battles where I have made 5.42 K/D with it with 266 battles played not to mention Lancaster with 10.81 K/D with 145 battles played.

[gangsterism]

@Pale_Horse_Rider

the Pe-8 with its massive bomb can wipe out many tanks but, even with one of the better defensive armaments on a bomber, is pretty easy to kill with fighter

its physically impossible to make something like the Pe-8 fair to fight against as a tank.
teammates are simply unreliable, and to ever assume you can rely on them to spawn SPAA or CAP is wrong, it will never work, and obviously never did.
and just because of that, every other skilled ground player is punished by imminent death

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

@gangsterism

some players want to play tanks, some players have a goal of playing CAS. there is a clear split in player mentality

Previously you have cited certain tank tactics as being oriented towards getting a plane, and I want to know if you would consider these players to not be “ground players” if they used the same tactics in a tank only mode?

Does rushing a cap in a fast light tank become more of a valid tactic if planes don’t exist?

@gangsterism

nothing to do with balancing or gameplay quality.

It has everything to do with it. The defining quality of War Thunder is mixed vehicle combat, and it is balanced based on this. You choose to only play tanks, the game isn’t forcing you not to spawn a plane.

And before you bring up the fact that there is a plane only mode, you should understand that the only reason we still have plane only mode is because it was there first. I remember when War Thunder only had planes, tanks were added later, then naval last. To remove plane only is to take away something that has always been there, which is why is hasn’t been done.

@gangsterism

i want to play tanks, its nothing like fighting in MMA with only one hand.

Yes it is. You willingly entered mixed combat while you are imposing an artificial restriction upon yourself. You then get upset when other combatants who are not imposing the same restriction on themselves do better than you do.

You keep clinging to the false dichotomy of ground player vs CAS player, but no one can spawn a plane without first playing a tank, and no one is forcing anyone to only play with tanks.

@gangsterism

instead CAS players make the choice to abuse ground players

Using all of the tools available to me is not abuse, its how the game was designed and intended to be played. Forcing yourself to only play tanks is self-abuse.

Let me direct your attention to the birth of Ground Realistic.

[Event] 'The Sky is for Heroes' for Realistic Battles - News - War Thunder

" Only the best will reach the heights! The new Realistic Battle event with both air and ground vehicles is now available for you to try in the “Events” mode. Gain the opportunity to use aircraft in a ground battle.

The same matchmaking rules are applied to the regular Arcade tank battles and this event, so we advise you to choose both aircraft and tanks with similar Battle ratings in your crew slots before joining the mission.

[gangsterism]

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[Pangolin_Fan]

@gangsterism

some players want to play tanks, some players have a goal of playing CAS.

Most have the goal of playing both.

@gangsterism

the cause of the balance issues doesnt change the fact that there should be re-balancing

You’re completely wrong. To fix a problem, you go after the cause.

@gangsterism

some aspects of the CAS problem have nothing to do with equipment or skill

Yes, and those few aspects aren’t major issues.

@gangsterism

its physically impossible to make something like the Pe-8 fair to fight against as a tank.

“Pe-8 sucks and barely gets kills, but it’s still overpowered”

[gangsterism]

reposting because of report abuse

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@Pangolin_Fan

Most have the goal of playing both.

most CAS players

@Pangolin_Fan

You’re completely wrong. To fix a problem, you go after the cause.

so… banning unskilled players? skill based matchmaking? competitive games? deleting CAS?

@Pangolin_Fan

Yes, and those few aspects aren’t major issues.

they are the most major issues by very far.
dying to something you cant fight against is shit gameplay, and no dose of cope will ever convince me otherwise

@Pangolin_Fan

“Pe-8 sucks and barely gets kills, but it’s still overpowered”

never said its overpowered. but still isnt fair towards the ground player who was blown up with zero counterplay

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

@gangsterism

any player can do this and it doesnt make them a non-ground player just because they do this specific tactic

So you acknowledge that the common tactic for getting CAS is also a legitimate ground tactic. Since you cannot spawn CAS without first playing a tank (except for certain helicopters with minimum loadouts, and I don’t see complaints about those anyway) we can therefore conclude that all “CAS players” are also ground players.

@gangsterism

some intend to play tanks, some intend to spawn CAS at some point

Some players impose artificial restrictions on themselves, some play the whole game as intended. the split is clear.

@gangsterism

mixed combat is at most a defining blunder of war thunder

You do realize this is like saying the battle royale format is the defining blunder of Fortnite, right? Its an essential quality of the game, and if you don’t enjoy it then its the wrong game for you. I don’t enjoy battle royale, so I simply don’t play Fortnite.

@gangsterism

which of what you said makes the gameplay more bearable or viable?

If you don’t impose an artificial restriction upon yourself you’d be able to engage in more viable tactics. Engaging in more viable tactics brings success, success makes gameplay “bearable”

[QTip_44]

@Pale_Horse_Rider

No it cannot, its an open topped vehicle, one HE round from all but the smallest of cannons will knock it out instantly.

Wait wut?

The Nashhorn can one-tap any ground vehicle trying to kill it. That has nothing to do with this topic.

STICK TO THE DISCUSSION AT HAND.

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

@QTip_44

STICK TO THE DISCUSSION AT HAND.

bold talk for someone rehashing earlier posts that thread has already moved on from, especially when you completely missed the point of what they were saying

[QTip_44]

@Pale_Horse_Rider

Have you ever played rock paper scissors?

Except your analogy of rock-paper-scissors does not apply.

In rock-paper-scissors one of the triad can’t beat all the rest.
But a plane can.

• it can counter other planes
• it can counter tanks
• it can counter spaa.

Maybe you want to try again?

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

@QTip_44

• it can counter other planes
• it can counter tanks
• it can counter spaa.

So can a Sherman, or any tank with a roof 50.

Fixating on this is missing the point of the analogy in the context of a Nashorn player who gets 8 kills against tanks and is mad they died to plane.

[QTip_44]

“they” as in you?

Nashorn vs other ground vehicles has NOTHING to do with the discussion. A nashorn may be at a disadvantage vs some other ground vehicles, but it always has a chance.

Against CAS, the nashorn’s chances drop to a big fat ZERO.

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

@QTip_44

“they” as in you?

they as in the posts which happen to be mine

@QTip_44

Nashorn vs other ground vehicles has NOTHING to do with the discussion. A nashorn may be at a disadvantage vs some other ground vehicles, but it always has a chance.

Based on the 8 kills screenshot we saw, more than just a chance, its dominant.

@QTip_44

Against CAS, the nashorn’s chances drop to a big fat ZERO.

And thus has to be answered by planes.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@gangsterism

they are the most major issues by very far.

Nope. The most major issues are cause by map and team imbalance. CAS is just a single bee plucked from an entire hive.

@gangsterism

most CAS players

XD nope.

@gangsterism

so… banning unskilled players? skill based matchmaking? competitive games? deleting CAS?

Or y’know, proper tutorials or encouraging players who don’t suck at WT to play SPAA.

@gangsterism

never said its overpowered. but still isnt fair towards the ground player who was blown up with zero counterplay

If you can’t spot a long range bomber approaching them you deserve to be blown up.

@QTip_44

Nashorn vs other ground vehicles has NOTHING to do with the discussion. A nashorn may be at a disadvantage vs some other ground vehicles, but it always has a chance.

Warthunder is a vehicle v.s vehicle game, not a Nashorn v.s plane game. Other vehicles absolutely do matter.