How player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem

[RunaDacino]

You’re the guy who gets outturned by a Wellington in corsairs and apparently Ishaks too… If anyone has skill issues, it’s you.

Honestly makes me wonder if that’s why you insist on CAS in GRB - due to issues with playing AAB/ARB/ASB.

Checking my Wellginton with WTRTI:

Theoretically it CAN hit 26.4 deg/s turn rate at 280 km/h IAS at 1.5 km altitude. Going over 280 km/h seems to actually reduce turn rate to 16 at 400 km/h IAS which is bled away incredibly fast
Guess what.
It’s also losing 25.4 m/s Specific excess power and drops down to like 210 km/h IAS within moments, which reduces turn rate to 16.9 degrees/second

For the record, it has a straight-line SEP of 4.5~ m/s WHILE WEPing from 210 to 300 km/h

Literally all you need to not get out-turned by a wellington is make it take nose-up turns rather than try to turn with it in a flat circle and it literally falls out of the sky.

Ishak (lowest BR one, I dont have the higher variants) does bleed speed a lot as well, but it has a SEP of 12 WHILE WEPing from 210 to 300 km/h. This enables it to turn the flat circle into a ~45 degree circle and dunk on a wellington thinking it can turnfight. Also at max-bleed at 310 km/h IAS I managed to do a 28 deg/s turn but it was like deploying airbrakes for -20 SEP.

I dont have F4U-7 but I have F4U-4B.
Given that they already have comparable P/W according to WTAPC
(4961+6360.3)-(4785+6360.575) = 1.1 kg
(F4U-7 dry mass + F4U-7 min fuel) - (F4U-4b dry mass + F4U-4B 57.5% fuel) = almost the same.
I’ll test with 58%

Spoiler

MEC: 100% pp, SG1, 15% rad/oil flaps.

Peak turn rate: 480 km/h IAS (achievable after a 500 meter dive from 300 km/h while WEPing) for 28 degrees per second. This 28 degrees per second can be sustained down to 430 km/h. SEP does go to crazy -72 m/s or so tho.

Near-stall turn rate: With Landing flaps, I can achieve 16.9 turn rate with proper rudder usage INDEFINITELY (positive SEP) at 190 km/h. I tried going down to 160 km/h where it went down to 11 deg/s but I could barely control her at such a low speed and kept spinning out.

At 320 km/h IAS, I achieved 21 deg/s turn rate for -26 SEP

SEP?

190 km/h IAS gives us 18 m/s SEP at ~0 m/s climb.
260 km/h IAS gives us peak SEP at 21 m/s at ~0m/s climb
(Closing rads further could increase it, but at 15/15 we dont overheat)
320 km/h IAS still gives us 19.4 m/s
420 km/h IAS it goes down to 15.9

… How do you get out-turned by a Wellington is a Corsair?

Worst part, I fly my F4U-4, F4U-4B with more fuel than i tested with (78% for 35 min fuel).

Oh.

And havent even talked about roll rates.
The wellington has pitiful roll rate even with rudder kicks.
Even if you don’t use energy to dogfight them, you have roll rate to beat them in a turnfight so… how.

Caveat: Tested with stick & throttle with full-real controls. Instructor may reduce max performance but well…
It’s only fair to expect you to use full-real controls if you expect me to fly planes :p.

[QTip_44]

@Pale_Horse_Rider

The tank decides where it happens.

So a tank can chase the plane and attack it?

And only in some cases are plane cannons smaller than the ground vehicle cannons that can return fire on a plane. But that is moot, since the planes are attacking the weakest parts of the tank. CAS does not need a 75mm cannon to take out ground vehicles. 37mm autocanons, or even 20mm will suffice.

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

@QTip_44

So a tank can chase the plane and attack it?

The plane has to go to where the tank is.

Its a matter of speed and can be observed in tanks too. A faster tank fights a slower tank, the faster tank decides when the encounter happens, but the slower tank decides where.

[QTip_44]

You consider a tank parking in a spot to cap or attack other tanks “picking the location” of an encounter with CAS? That’s rich. Especially if the tank doesn’t know the bomb is already dropped.

And how about the weaponry? No comment on that?

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

@QTip_44

You consider a tank parking in a spot to cap or attack other tanks “picking the location” of an encounter with CAS?

Yes.

@QTip_44

And how about the weaponry? No comment on that?

You already admitted I was right, the weapons are less powerful, and then moved the goal post to them being able to exploit weakspots.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@Pale_Horse_Rider

Also he was sloppy…

That is why I changed it to 500 lbs as I knew that 250kg is to hard to understand ;)

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

For 500lbs then its the Spitfire all day, easy choice.

You agree 250lb is more of a gamble against heavy tanks yes?

[Pangolin_Fan]

@MotorolaCRO

Dudes headbutting a Stinker from 5km away is far from skillful gameplay.

It’s not my fault that you’re headbutting stingers.

@MotorolaCRO

Meanwhile the most successful PvP games all had SBMM.

You mean the PvP games that have every player on equal footing with identical health, identical movements, and only a dozen unique weapons or maps?

TF2 doesn’t even have a fraction of the complexity that WT has, and SBMM/comp was a complete disaster.

@RunaDacino

outturned by a Wellington in corsairs and apparently Ishaks too

It’s not my fault you keep dying to wellingtons. If anyone has skill issue, it’s you.

[RunaDacino]

@Pangolin_Fan

You mean the PvP games that have every player on equal footing with identical health, identical movements, and only a dozen unique weapons or maps?

League of Legends?

Dota 2?

AOE2DE?

[QTip_44]

@Pale_Horse_Rider

You already admitted I was right, the weapons are less powerful, and then moved the goal post to them being able to exploit weakspots.

Your answer “yes” means you have just given up.

The planes weapons can easily destroy all the ground vehicles. Who cares if some are smaller than what some spaa can carry. They get the job done.

That is the point - which apparently has gone right over your head.

[RunaDacino]

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

@QTip_44

The planes weapons can easily destroy all the ground vehicles.

Okay go kill a Sherman with 7.7mgs, I’ll wait.

[QTip_44]

You are being deliberately obtuse. Who the heck is attacking a Sherman with 7.7mm guns?

Discussing anything with you is pointless.

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

You’re the one saying planes weapons can easily destroy all tanks.

Perhaps if you had said something sensible like, planes that are appropriately equipped for CAS can destroy most tanks, I might be more agreeable, but when you make a blanket, generalized, statement you shouldnt be surprised when people take it to whichever conclusion suits them.

[MotorolaCRO]

@Pangolin_Fan

It’s not my fault that you’re headbutting stingers.

I’m not, they are headbutting my Stinkers which is why I know.

@Pangolin_Fan

You mean the PvP games that have every player on equal footing with identical health, identical movements, and only a dozen unique weapons or maps?

You can literally buy additional eHP in some like CS.
Others like DotA and LoL have unique heroes that all have their pros and cons.

It’s pretty much Gaijin’s fault for not being to do anything right from map design, game modes and balancing. SBMM is bread and butter of PvP games, it’s just that some game studios aren’t competent enough to get it to work.

Sadly for Gaijin, their business strategy works pretty much against them and their hopes of making WT an esport.

[gangsterism]

@Pale_Horse_Rider

we can therefore conclude that all “CAS players” are also ground players.

we can also conclude that not all ground players are CAS players.
and with that, we can conclude the most useless debate on this forum so far

@Pale_Horse_Rider

Some players impose artificial restrictions on themselves, some play the whole game as intended. the split is clear.

no, there is no artificial restriction. i am playing a tank (as intended), and then i get airstriked.
shit gameplay, end of discussion.

@Pale_Horse_Rider

You do realize this is like saying the battle royale format is the defining blunder of Fortnite, right

not remotely close

@Pale_Horse_Rider

Its an essential quality of the game

at top tier, its anything but essential

@Pale_Horse_Rider

If you don’t impose an artificial restriction upon yourself you’d be able to engage in more viable tactics

i couldnt care less what viable tactics are.
im not going to play CAP or SPAA 24/7 and you know that.
and at that point, the gameplay is unfair, and i have to die and spawn SPAA yet again to defend myself or teammates (after everyone already died)

[Pangolin_Fan]

@MotorolaCRO

It’s pretty much Gaijin’s fault for not being to do anything right from map design, game modes and balancing. SBMM is bread and butter of PvP games, it’s just that some game studios aren’t competent enough to get it to work.

Sadly for Gaijin, their business strategy works pretty much against them and their hopes of making WT an esport.

It’s not just maps. Even if every single player was equally matched in skill, you would still have the issue that every team has a different composition of nations, and every player has a different lineup, and spawns each vehicle in a different order, and travels to different parts of the map.

SBMM would only really work for weeding out the best of the best players and the worst of the worst players.

[gangsterism]

@Pangolin_Fan

Nope. The most major issues are cause by map and team imbalance. CAS is just a single bee plucked from an entire hive.

“those few” that you were talking about were still in the context of CAS.
im not saying there arent big issues, the map design is comical, and your teams are even more, but CAS is at least equal and the team issue doesnt help the balancing (even if CAS and SPAA were correctly balanced, it still wouldnt work)

@Pangolin_Fan

XD nope.

most players dont intend to play CAS, its only CAS players.
maybe at low tier, idk.

@Pangolin_Fan

Or y’know, proper tutorials or encouraging players who don’t suck at WT to play SPAA

you can add a tutorial but you know well this wont suddenly make teammates reliable

@Pangolin_Fan

If you can’t spot a long range bomber approaching them you deserve to be blown up.

how does spotting it help them not die to the 5 ton bomb? also spotting is impossible in any city map and most players arent looking up at the sky, they actually have to play the game and kill other tanks

@Pale_Horse_Rider

If you truly can’t stand CAS, then if your tank dies to it consider flying CAP and shooting down all the CAS. I can recommend some great CAP fighters if you like. For the Nashorn BR the Bf 109 G-14 will do nicely.

great argument, but the “shit gameplay” part has already taken place and your suggestion doesnt change that.
“just spawn CAP” must have been repeated a thousand times now. it never did anything more than showing that a player is heavily out of touch though

[gangsterism]

now i need to stop replying though, wasting time by arguing with solely unqualified people is a genuine peak forum moment

[RunaDacino]

@Pale_Horse_Rider

If you truly can’t stand CAS, then if your tank dies to it consider flying CAP and shooting down all the CAS. I can recommend some great CAP fighters if you like. For the Nashorn BR the Bf 109 G-14 will do nicely.

At this point, why am I playing GRB?

I might as well go back to ASB and have fun there.

Reason I decided to play GRB is to do something that’s not possible in ASB: play tanks (or armoured cars or trucks with a giant gun strapped to its trailer).