How player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem

[Lauri_Heino]

The logic classes are screaming in my brain about the “no x are y” statement

[gangsterism]

there is no way to prove that all the people complaining on the forum are inexperienced gepard players, and it is also unrelated to the problem

[Lauri_Heino]

@gangsterism

there is no way to prove that all the people complaining on the forum are inexperienced gepard players

True, but that’s also true of the claim that none of them are, and no one claimed all inexperienced gepard players were complaining.
The opposite of “all” is “any”, not “none.” (and vice-versa - the opposite of “none” is also “any”, not “all.”)

But like you said, that’s not the argument this thread is about.

EDIT:
Yeah, that set theory stuff is not quite true. If I said “some” instead of “any”, it would be (and even then with caveats.)

[Lauri_Heino]

Either way, Pangolin never made the claim that “all inexperienced Gepard players are complaining on the forum” - they stated that there is a subset that does.
“No gepard players are complaining on the forum” is an unprovable claim.

[gangsterism]

word play doesnt matter much, pangolin implied people complaining about CAS on the forum tend to be unskilled players who die to CAS because of their own skill issue.
but this isnt the case, its just cope from a CAS player

[Lauri_Heino]

“tend to” and “all are” are not the same statement.
The former being one that I just so happen to agree with.

“cope”
You saw the video, right?

[gangsterism]

@Lauri_Heino

“tend to” and “all are” are not the same statement.
The former being one that I just so happen to agree with.

it practically means the same thing here, it would be wrong in both cases

@Lauri_Heino

“cope”
You saw the video, right?

yes i saw the video, i was talking about it

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

Except there are a lot of people who complain about CAS just because they’re salty they died to a plane.

[Lauri_Heino]

@gangsterism

it would be wrong in both cases

Can you prove to me, then, that the trend is false?

[FlyingDoctor]

@gangsterism

Your proof sits in plain sight, just play top tier once.
SPAA changes nothing when teammates arent shooting aircraft and/or physically cant shoot aircraft.
Players will keep dying to an unstoppable force as usual

What you’re doing is gatekeeping and overly defining the discussion to make it about top teir.

@gangsterism

I say CAS is a problem, you say “no its not”.

It’s a feature.

@gangsterism

Saying CAS isnt a problem is a lie, im not gatekeeping something behind BR or tier

Again, you actually are by making it about top teir. Hence the term, gatekeeping.

@gangsterism

I can handle repetetive lies and disinformation by proving it wrong, although it gets a bit annoying when the lie is spammed 30 times per day

There is only one person who’s proclaiming lies right now, and they’re also the one who is arguing the point so vehemently.

@gangsterism

You called multiple things “bad faith” beforehand. Just not specifically that.

Yes, I understand bad faith premises and arguments alike, and there are many here who truly do ague in bad faith…

After all, many of them are just trying to make out that I am wrong, for holding an opinion.

@gangsterism

When it comes to making out things you didnt say, id recommend writing properly

For someone who may well not be of native English, I’d recommend being tolerable.

[Creastroy]

@gangsterism

because defenseless players get killed and cant do anything to prevent it.

Back to the “Some think it’s ok to have hard counters some don’t” xD

But considering ground only we still have autocannon spam against light armour and everyone else against missile carts so… bruh

[gangsterism]

@Pale_Horse_Rider

Except there are a lot of people who complain about CAS just because they’re salty they died to a plane.

not the same thing as being “incompetent gepard players”.
i never denied anyone is salty because of planes, thats why i want TO.

@Lauri_Heino

Can you prove to me, then, that the trend is false?

i dont know what trend youre talking about

@FlyingDoctor

What you’re doing is gatekeeping and overly defining the discussion to make it about top teir.

i could say the same thing about you, because youre ignoring top tier and “gatekeeping” the discussion to make it about low tiers.
if you at least acknowledged that there are issues at top tier, or specified that you only mean low/mid tier when saying there are no issues, i wouldnt say anything

@FlyingDoctor

It’s a feature.

didnt say CAS isnt a feature, if it wasnt a feature we probably wouldnt be talking about it…

@FlyingDoctor

Again, you actually are by making it about top teir. Hence the term, gatekeeping.

ok and just for that reason youre gonna deny what im saying, just because you dont care about toptier?

@FlyingDoctor

There is only one person who’s proclaiming lies right now, and they’re also the one who is arguing the point so vehemently.

this one is certainly you, i provide explanations while you spam nonsense. you might be talking about lower tiers, but i dont know since you dont specify anything

@FlyingDoctor

After all, many of them are just trying to make out that I am wrong, for holding an opinion.

holding an opinion isnt wrong, but the opinion itself may be wrong.
your uneducated opinion on top tier CAS is wrong, and again, if you were mainly talking about lower tiers, you didnt specify

@FlyingDoctor

For someone who may well not be of native English, I’d recommend being tolerable.

no problem but if someone misunderstands what you meant to write, its not their fault

@Creastroy

Back to the “Some think it’s ok to have hard counters some don’t” xD

exactly, its impossible to balance CAS. there will always be a hard counter, its why TO is needed.
the dynamic of rock paper scissors shouldnt exist in a videogame where skill is supposed to matter.
im not saying that GRB shouldnt exist, but there should be an option to play actual ground battles

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

@gangsterism

i never denied anyone is salty because of planes, thats why i want TO.

Tank only will never happen. You can cry out for it until the heat death of the universe and it wont come.

Instead of continuing in futility, I recommend learning how to make yourself a less desirable target. First and foremost this entails being aware of enemy air spawns so you can prepare and position yourself accordingly. Avoid grouping up with allies, avoid camping in one spot for extended periods of time, avoid wide open spaces, and utilize smoke effectively. A stationary target is an easy target, and a group is desirable target. Be neither.

[gangsterism]

i assume youre talking about low / mid tier games? it doesnt apply to highest tiers

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

these tactics are viable at every tier

in fact given the increased mobility that higher tier tanks have they are actually more effective at being harder targets when played correctly

[Thomas_Belgium]

Some news dropped that could be interesting for this discussion.

@magazine2

Changes to the SP cost of additional aircraft spawns in Ground Realistic and Naval Arcade and Realistic Battles

In the future (follow the news!) we’re planning some changes to how spawn points work for aircraft in Ground Realistic and Naval Arcade / Realistic Battles.

How does it work currently? To give you a refresher: if you spawn the same class of aircraft twice, the SP cost for the second spawn increases (so if you spawn an AD-2 and then an AM-1, for example). But it does not increase if you spawn again in a different class of aircraft — which effectively means you can spawn a fighter, attacker/bomber aircraft one after the other at the default cost.

How will it work instead? The spawn cost of the second and subsequent planes you spawn in Ground Realistic and Naval Realistic / Arcade Battles will be determined by the ordinance you used with the previously spawned aircraft, and won’t be impacted by aircraft class. As an example, if you spawn an aircraft with bombs, the cost to spawn another aircraft equipped with bombs increases, even if the class is not the same.

There will be effectively two types of aircraft spawns in regards to SP, fighters (aircraft of any class equipped with air-to-air missiles or no additional weaponry at all) and aircraft equipped with “Strike weapons” (bombs, rockets, AGMs, torpedoes, mines, AP piercing belts).

Two more specific examples include:

• If you spawn a P-47 with bombs (strike weapons) for 600 SP and get shot down, the cost to spawn it again with a backup with no strike weapons will be at the default cost (540 SP).
• If you take a fighter with one bomb (like a Spitfire), the next aircraft you spawn with strike weaponry will increase, and not for fighter aircraft with no strike weapons.

Overall, this changes the SP cost of additional aircraft spawns from a class-based system to a weapon-based system, which is much more streamlined and works more effectively with the intentions of the mechanic. The actual class of an aircraft is almost arbitrary, when it’s the weaponry that actually has an impact. In addition to this being an overall fairer way to distribute spawn cost, this will also result in less strike-capable planes in ground battles, as now it will be more difficult to spawn these aircraft multiple times.

[Lauri_Heino]

@gangsterism

i dont know what trend youre talking about

The trend of inexperienced / clueless players calling CAS OP (beyond what level CAS could objectively be called “OP”.)

[Lauri_Heino]

This seems like it could definitely shake things up!

[Pale_Horse_Rider]

Sounds like I’ll be able to chain spawn planes by either taking the ordinance off or adding planes with anti-ground cannons like the Mollins Mosquito to the line up.

Example for 3.7 UK: Spawn Hellcat with HVARs and Bombs, then spawn Mustang with 20mm AP cannons.

[Thomas_Belgium]

Currently you can already do that, but when using different classes of planes is where the clue to cheap planes with CAS ordinance lies. Use an attacker and a fighter, both with CAS options, and you currently don’t have to pay an increase for spawning one after the other. That should be changed with the new system. Paired with CAS munitiong giving an increase in SP. The most effective CAS cannon munitions like the APHE for the soviet 45mm and the HVAP for the german 30mm also cost SP and should be included in the new system.