This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.
It would be exponentially worse. Why do you think players jump into CAS at the earliest opportunity.
And you are more than doubling the learning curve for new players - expecting them to learn air and ground combat while facing veterans. The exodus / failure to retain new players would be massive.
I hope you don’t hurt yourself if you fall off that high-horse you’re riding in on.
News flash - not everyone wants to play the game the way you do.
Okay we accepted your suggestion and all has planes and AAs, i spawned Tiger 2 killed guy with T34… He spawned A2D and comes to revengebomb me. How your suggestion helps me fight back, while I’m in my Tiger 2?
(Spoiler: it won’t help)
And average CAS destroy average SPAAG. Plus CAS always has advantages, CAS chooses angle and timing to attack, AAs players have to spin heads all 360°.
And how we should rename neval?? If you didn’t know it’s combined mode too.
Dude…
You should not be allowed to comment here, if you don’t see difference between WT and those games ground gameplay.
You can see how many your teammates use air units, just press TAB and check lineups (you will be surprised when discover, not much players using planes)
People are not enjoying, that’s why everyone complains about different things.
So you agree, CAS is unfair for ground players and by it’s nature, it never be.
I’ll just answer in your style: gEt Use tO It, iT is paRt Of tHe gAme… JuSt lEaRn anD adApT.
CAS supporters being ass whole this time, nobody asks for current GB to be deleted, people asking for fair ground engagement.
I still don’t understand why you opposing it so furiously.
3 Likes
Because his gameplay in air modes got changed due to changes to the air weponary long time ago.
He wrote about it under previous nickname
There should be more action about how every thread about CAS and SPAA gets hijacked by these guys, constantly wishing their mode to be the only discussion…
3 Likes
I’m not going to claim CAS doesn’t have mechanical problems, but you need to stop automatically looking at CAS as “OP” when it exists.
It literally has nothing else to do BUT kill player tanks in the current game mode, and even when non-player targets existed very early in its development, those non-player targets paid fuck all in rewards. It’s an incentive problem paired with lackluster counters paired with idiotic game mechanics encouraging people to abuse it for revenge.
New players already have to do this. As soon as they leave the newbie battles server section, they fight veteran seal-clubbers on a regular basis. They fight against CAS on a regular basis. If there was going to be an exodus, it would have happened already.
And, any potential threat of new players being overly frustrated is also precisely why I am proposing giving each player BR-appropriate default Fighters, CAS (with preset loadouts), and SPAAG/SAMs, exactly like Combined Naval and top tiers of Combined Ground operate already, just extended to all of Ground. I likewise propose to give non-radar SPAAGs crew-skill-derived lead indicators based on the Rangefinding skill, so that those newbies aren’t just randomly spraying from 5km away uselessly, but see roughly where to aim only when the plane is close enough to actually be hit. To make those SPAAGs competent enough to be worth moving beyond the spawn zone, many of the old nerfs to their anti-tank performance would be undone.
I have been thinking about the new player experience this entire time.
You open up a game that clearly says “this game is about Combined Arms with both planes and tanks simultaneously present.” Any player who then thinks “well I don’t care about planes, I just want the tanks.” is not inherently wrong if that is their preference which they are willing to accept the consequences of.
But if they then demand a wholly separate mode, queue, and server space just to service their preferences the game was not built around originally, they and their preferences are the actual problem.
I recognize that trying to argue with such people is a waste of breath - hence I simply propose a set of genuine gameplay improvements that just so happen to entrap stubborn folk like those in their own preferences if they refuse to adapt to the rules of the game as a “helpful side effect.” This does not harm any of such people - it simply hands them the keys to open the door to helping themselves once they decide to go unlock the door. If they refuse to go unlock the door, it’s now their fault and their fault alone if they freeze in the cold.
I could said the same do you because you flag other people post you don’t like it.
1 Like
First off, the kill camera would be deleted entirely from all non-Arcade game modes. Second, that A2D would have to take off from the runway. Thus unless your Tiger II is unable to move or you choose not to move, AND not a single other soul on your team bothered to spawn any CAP or SPAAG, that A2D can eventually still find you, though it would take him considerably more effort to do so without the kill camera showing him exactly where you were.
The point is to enable fighting fire with fire, giving the players maximum utility and maximum availability of the tools, to where anyone who dies to CAS now has nobody to blame but themselves. My changes both address real gameplay problems and also most importantly kill off the whiny victim mentality driving much of the CAS rage. We know that this will solve the problem, because in 7.3-9.0 where every nation has Radar SPAAGs that are easy to operate, CAS complaints largely disappear.
Just like how a heavy tank driver has nobody to blame but themselves when they get flanked. Just like a light tank tin can has nobody to blame but themselves when they run into a heavy they can’t pen and whiff their shot to die thereafter.
That is precisely why I proposed giving non-radar SPAAGs a short-range lead indicator based on crew training. A bone-stock crew gets a lead marker from 0-1000m distance. An aced crew on a non-radar SPAAG gets a lead marker out from 0-1600m distance.
I am well aware that Mouse Aim and 3rd Person Camera currently favor aircraft. I am well aware that SPAAG lack their real number advantages of coordinating multiple units firing at one plane, much like how Bombers in Air RB are sitting ducks because they lack their box formations.
Therefore I propose giving the SPAAGs help with aiming to make using them effectively against planes far more simple.
Simultaneously, to address SPAAGs often sitting uselessly in their own spawns while their teams’ frontline tanks get mauled by CAS, undoing years of nerfs to autocannons, giving SPAAGs their missing anti-tank ammo, removing idiotic limits on APDS/APFSDS rounds on high tier SPAAGs, then those SPAAGs can actively push with their team’s tanks to the front lines, and thus be where the CAS gravitates to.
Yes, it should be. Combined Naval also has a CAS problem of its own - it’s currently just tilted way too far in the other direction. AI-controlled AAA on even entry-level destroyers is ridiculous. Planes lack their massed attack formations they used to gang up on ships with.
The real Yamato got sunk by the combined efforts of over 400 planes hitting it all at once. Ingame, all of the Yamato’s hundreds of AAA guns are focused on one, maybe two planes tops.
In addition to that, planes are still treated as killstreak powerups despite the odds being totally flipped, and there’s a complete and total lack of interesting objectives except trying to kill player ships with their overkill AAA.
I am aware of how they are different - WoT and AW are admittedly arcadey with dumb HP bars. Steel Beasts is a heavily detailed simulator not the faint of heart.
But GHPC? That game was specifically developed by Ex-War Thunder players who got sick of CAS and Grind. Hence why I say if you want just tanks, go play that. The more people buy that game, the more funding GHPC’s devs have to work with, and the sooner GHPC will finish all of its core architecture to then be able to work on its planned online multiplayer mode.
GHPC’s planned online multiplayer mode LITERALLY IS YOUR DESIRED TANK-ONLY GAME MODE with WT-style simplified controls. Just not in WT itself.
What I am saying is that most people at least have them in their lineups. Whether they choose to use them is and should be entirely on them.
My proposed changes ensure that all of them, regardless of preference, now would have them available to use if they so desire, or if they decide to change their preferences later down the line.
In its current implementation? CAS is a cheap revenge powerup. But it’s not overpowered. Rather, it simply has no purpose other than to be annoying.
Real CAS rarely targeted tanks directly, but in WT it has nothing BUT tanks to kill. Where are the AI-controlled bunkers with working guns that are preventing your team’s tanks from advancing? Where are the dug-in infantry with bazookas and towed AT guns preventing your team’s tanks from advancing? Where are the supply lines of light trucks and fuel trucks to supply the enemy team’s defenses with fuel and ammo? Where are the supply bases those trucks are driving from?
CAS is not overpowered - it’s currently near-purposeless, and needs its real objectives actually modeled.
I am well aware that there are diehard CAS mains and diehard tank mains who are currently at each other’s throats like Londo Mollari and G’Kar in Bablyon 5. Their prejudices cannot be changed - but what you can change are the incentives to make them stop fighting each other so viciously, and to stop taking sides with either.
If a tank main refuses to at least learn how to use SPAAGs should the time arise when his team is being swarmed by CAS and nobody else is available to use an SPAAG, it’s now his fault his team gets swarmed.
If a CAS main refuses to heed the warnings about player-controlled SPAAGs being now very strong, tries to focus on killing just player tanks, and gets swatted out of the air, that is also his own fault and not the game’s.
That is what I am after - eradicating the whine-induced nerf cycle and making both warring camps fully accountable for their own actions and choices.
So you have no answer in other words, even though a gameplay change explicitly designed to make CAS less abuseable should be something you should support.
Multiple reasons.
First off, Gaijin’s incredibly consistent behavior. They kept denying the mode, over and over and over and over again. Therefore, why keep pushing for something they have not expressed even much consideration for? They did all of a single test event way back in 2019, and it clearly flopped to where they never bothered again - that suggests the mode idea is not popular enough to sustain itself.
Second, gameplay - as badly as CAS is implemented, it currently serves to dig people out of troublesome map locations. If CAS gets removed, many maps break unless you add a replacement mechanic to dig people out. And knowing Gaijin, that would probably be making Artillery Support far stronger.
Third, me observing the people chanting for TO - no matter what changes with how CAS operates, they are never satisfied. They are also completely and utterly blind to the negative effects of those changes to CAS weaponry in other game modes. And when they’re made aware of it, they don’t care. Hence I realized the people doing the complaining are the actual problem just as much as CAS’s terrible implementation is.
Fourth, the plain and simple fact that adding TO does literally nothing to address any of the mechanical problems with how CAS is implemented. It doesn’t address the kill cam. It doesn’t address planes spawning in midair at high speed. It doesn’t address planes being dumb killstreak powerups. It doesn’t address SPAAG being mostly incompetent until Radar AAs arrive. It doesn’t address CAS having no purpose other than annoying player tanks. It fixes nothing except some peoples’ stubborn preferences.
Fifth, the moment Snail would give you guys “your pet mode,” it would initiate a dangerous chain reaction of other extremist groups in the playerbase then asking for THEIRS. If Snail says “no they’re a special case,” mass outrage from various groups of players in other game modes with their respective gripes. If they decide to listen to these various other groups, the game bloats with so many unnecessary modes that it leads to playerbase fragmentation. I am of the opinion that this entire game needs just ONE truly GOOD Full Combined Arms game mode, and should dispense with “Randumb Battles” entirely. After all, if separate Air Battles mode no longer exists, the “just go play Air Battles!” rant excuse no longer exists, either.
Yup, and as I have seen their behavior be like this for years, this is precisely why I see them as just as much of a problem for overall game health as the CAS they’re complaining about. It’s why I say “CAS is 50% a gameplay implementation problem and 50% a player opinion one.”
You don’t solve their opinions by trying to convince them - you pull the rug out from under them, upend the gameplay mechanics to address that half of the issue, and set up new gameplay mechanics where their preferences now become entirely their liability. After being rendered intentionally non-meta for long enough, most of them will give up and change their ways, gradually starving the crazies who keep screeching “but I want to play TANKS!” of any meaningful support. Thus their “movement” withers away over time as average players, now armed with everpresent and functional counters to CAS, look at those crazies like they should be - crazy, irrational people who refuse to adapt to the game’s rules.
1 Like
It is always good to remember that the picture that some try to portray here is that people who actually contribute to the team and know what they are doing (as per in-game profile can show) are “crying” and are “bad”, but people who give enemy more SP are the ones doing things for the game health.
At the same time, as finally I have some free time I’m enjoying spawning japanese Albatros with Zuni rockets and destroying people on the ground for less than 600 SP while having balistic computer at 7.3. That is not a question of what SPAA can do as it can’t do anything beside die.
I can spawn such a plane and kill anyone on the ground, SPAA can kill me only if I make a stupid mistake.
5 Likes
I made topic about the Albatros jet (USSR) in 6.3 killing everyone without problem.
More reason I reach the expert (ULQ_Lover) for good conversation.
1 Like
I’m talking about Japanese version with Zuni rockets and CCIP at 7.3.
Sadly 6.3 have to face it too
2 Likes
Yes, I don’t know the Japanese version but seems upgrade version with computers and you are right cheap CAS killing everyone on ground.
1 Like
Russian bias btw, soviet one not only has no computer but also is stuck with s5k
1 Like
This guy in kugel prefered to J-out rather than give me the kill
I’m not even angry about that, I can understand why he have done it.
Another game in this beauty:
SPAA could not stand a chance
3 Likes
Well, after looking at it I’m not suprised anymore.
1 Like
Again, killcam is unic feature of this game (it’s part of the game 😄)
Seems you don’t understand what i wrote, doesn’t matter he finds me or other teammate, tanks are defenceless and that’s problem. Can’t fight back until you die.
You are right, what was i thinking spawning tank, should have spawned AA or plane.
No comment here, fully agree.
And?? There’s no way Gaijin manages to put 800+ player in one battle. Anyway, we aren’t talking about neval here.
Then why you suggesting to go play them?
Yes, and most people CHOOSE to not use them, most people aren’t interested to play AAs or planes in ground mode.
And it always will be “cheap revenge powerup” doesn’t matter pilot finds who killed him or any other enemy tank.
You have all of that in air modes… How come you didn’t knew that.
So to be clear, you want merge air and ground battles? With regular ground battlefield and full air map with all AI dots, cars and frontlines?
Again, you have all of it in air battles.
When CAS girlfriend uses “it’s part of the game” it’s argument, when somebody else - it means they have no answer. No more comment here.
And you think, adding TO is more problematic than working on your idea??
Most CAS players don’t have any problem about it’s implementation, they complaining about AAs and sp, i haven’t seen anyone asking about AI targets. So…
Math… Proportion… How many people asking about TO and how many, let’s say only neval…
There’s no troublesome location, which can’t be dealt with ground units. At least give us example.
1 Like
Umm… soo… Yeah i got it.
The game has evolved over time. No improvements = dead game. The current modes were not all there at the start. Players asking for more modes is not unreasonable.
Not to the extent they would if air options were available immediately. There will be a lot more, and the new players would be even more overwhelmed than they already are. The learning curve will just drive them away.
Some of your suggestions like restricted cockpit views and better spaa aiming (which Gaijin has criminally neglected) could improve the mode and solve some issues.
Force-feeding air units on players and flooding the skies is basically … jumping the shark.
1 Like
Holy Crap!!!
You hate CAS yet you simultaneously defend to the death one of the features that makes CAS so infuriating.
What’s the issue, even? You pick any vehicle class, it has strengths and weaknesses like any other.
If you play a heavy tank that’s big and slow, and you get flanked, well that’s your fault you let yourself get flanked. If you play a light tank and run headfirst into a heavy you can’t pen, that’s your fault you ran into him by being too aggressive.
I do not see CAS any differently, provided the rage-inducing bullshit mechanics like the kill cam, airspawns, and powerup SP system all get the axe. Provided SPAAG and SAMs get globally un-nerfed.
I want the actual mechanical problems with how CAS is implemented fixed.
I do not consider the tank vs plane situation on its own as inherently problematic - specialized classes do specialized jobs. Simple as that.
If you know the sky is full of buzzers and still spawn a tank, yes, it is indeed your own damn fault, as it should be.
This is literally based on how CAS complaints largely evaporate from 7.3-9.0 BR where everyone gets Radar SPAAG - they’re easy to learn in average player hands, yet not so oppressive that CAS with ordinary dumb bombs is incapable of doing anything.
Of course, the very same people then complain about those Radar SPAAG being able to shred tanks without seemingly being aware that their AT ability is partly why they are so good at swatting CAS. Radar AAs still need to be fairly close to the plane to hit it, and the AT ability allows even average players to confidently move outside their own spawn to go exactly where the CAS loves to congregate mid-map. That is why in my proposal set I also specify undoing the anti-tank nerfs to SPAAGs in addition to giving them the short-range lead marker if they lack radars.
Current naval gameplay is largely based on tanks, and inherited many of the same problems, while half-baked implementation added many more of its own. I used that as an example of the game going way too far in the other direction - in Naval the sheer density of AI-controlled 360-noscope AAA means CAS is either straight-up useless or a guaranteed one-way trip.
Whether you hate CAS or not, I bet even you can’t dare argue THAT is remotely “good gameplay.”
My point is after this many years, it is highly likely WT will never give you and the other TO fanboys what you’re screaming for. Maybe it will randomly shit out a half-baked slop game mode, and if it’s somehow popular then sure I suppose I will eat my words, but I highly doubt such a mode will actually become a thing in this game.
Therefore, just by looking at the highly-consistent messaging in the past, any sane supporter of TO would start naturally looking for alternative games catering to their personal preferences instead of trying to insist on bending a game not built for said preferences into something it was never meant to be.
If you want pure arcade madness, either WoT or AW is for you. If you want something with WT-grade or better DMs, go buy GHPC to give the devs of that monetary support so they can finish the core architecture of their game a bit sooner and then get their planned multiplayer up and running. If you want hardcore simulation, Steel Beasts exists as well.
You don’t need to stay in War Thunder if War Thunder isn’t giving you what you want.
Not every person has to. But everyone should damn well know how to. Like I said earlier - playing SPAAG & CAP to swat CAS is no different than any society having police officers and firefighters - its unglamorous work, but someone has to do it.
Thus, if you choose to spawn a tank first, so be it. If you get unlucky and die to a plane, even though your team had both SPAAG and CAP up and actively participating, oh well that’s just the luck of War Thunder that no amount of gameplay changes will ever fix. But if your team had no SPAAG or CAP up, then every single player on the team, including you yourself who got bombed, is to blame for the CAS doing what they did.
As it should be.
Some amount of revenge killing is unavoidable in any modern shooter-type game. But at the very least the game should NOT encourage it via idiotic kill cams and midair spawns. That’s my biggest beef with how CAS is implemented currently in WT - the game knows damn well it has the tools to make it NOT a pain in the ass, but chooses not to use them to make CAS a healthy part of the game.
If you actually bother playing the dumpster fire that is Air RB you would recognize how imbecilic of a suggestion that is…
What I am wanting is something like this, but you do in concept have the rough idea of what I am after:
Take the largest player tank maps in the full, un-shrunken size, like Simulator-mode Mozdok for instance. There are no separated caps and spawns. Each team starts with one cap like in Battle, but that cap IS the spawn, like in Naval EC. This cap zone is guarded by a ring of AI-controlled bunkers with working guns, towed antitank guns, and possibly other units. On a map that size you’d need at least 11-13 neutral objectives that upon capturing for a team, spawn AI defense units like on the main spawn zone. These units need destroying in order to begin de-capturing the zone. Tanks of course can kill these and their shooting accuracy will NOT be ridiculous, but the intent is that CAS can go preemptively soften up cap zones to help their own team advance.
CAS would be an everpresent participant, and the game mode would operate on Simulator’s SP system - 1000SP per player, no ability to earn more, no point doubling upon death, when you’re out of points, you’re out of the match. CAS would have forced runway takeoffs with cold engines upon spawning. There would be no helicopter pads separate from the plane airfield - the helipad would be merged into the plane runway complex, so no helipad AAA hover-camping allowed. Thus technically yes - any CAS with any crazy custom loadout could be a first-spawn option, but so could the ideal CAP plane with just air-to-air weaponry to kill that CAS with.
All players would have default SPAAG, CAP, and CAS (with preset loadouts), fully spaded in performance and totally free to repair/use other than SP costs, in their decks, expanding upon features the game has in Combined Naval or Top Tier Combined Ground. Thus players who have not yet researched appropriate counters are NOT defenseless (though stuff you research would of course be better than the defaults due to customization).
SPAAG would have crew skill derived lead markers even if they don’t have radars (or if they have radars but they’re turned off), from 0m to 1000-1600m depending on training. SPAAGs lacking some of their anti-tank rounds would have those missing rounds added, without ammo count limits on how much they can carry beyond their total ammo count. SPAAG need to move WITH the front line to defend the front line against CAS, therefore they need to melt tanks in the process.
There would be bombing targets outside the playable tank map, where supply convoys spawn at and drive towards the tank map - killing these trucks (think the Studebaker US6 models from WW Mode or some Air RB maps) does not bleed tickets, rather every truck arriving at the enemy rear supply zone adds tickets to their team instead. This is sorta based on the supply drop one-off cap zone that Carpathians used to have years ago.
There would be at least three artillery platoons outside the tank map as well using player vehicle models, intentionally as a CAS target. When they’re all dead tanks on the opposing team cannot call artillery support. This could vary with BR range to ensure artillery is truly deadly and forces people to move regardless of them being in open tops or not, and also vary with the nations making up a given team as well, even allowing vehicles in the game which make no sense as playable units.
So yes, in a nutshell it IS a combination of Air RB and Combined Ground RB, but with a LOT of modifications. If it were a map with a large body of water nearby, such as Normandy or Tunisia, I don’t see why there couldn’t be more modifications to make Naval additions also work in it.
Yes, in fact. I have yet to see any truly intelligent and serious suggestions on implementing such a mode that appears to have even a semblance of awareness of its own potential flaws, let alone proposes how to preemptively fix said flaws. All I have seen from its diehard supporters is some flavor of “LOL, just try it, you’ll see, if the Combined Arms mode loses all its players then that’s the problem!”, which strikes me as “these guys are probably just trolls who aren’t thinking about actual game health,” therefore no, I really don’t think pursuing such a mode is a good idea.
Assume snail somehow did add such a mode. Do you seriously think that adding such a contentious mode idea wouldn’t motivate multiple other equally crazy playerbase factions from then getting into an uproar and demanding “well you gave them their pet mode, so now you have no reason not to give us ours!” Do you seriously not recognize the very real possibility of things spiraling way out of control here?
There are selfish people on both camps of this entrenched debate, neither are entirely “right” nor entirely “wrong.”
My total opinion can be summed up as “CAS is badly implemented, but fixable. Embracing it properly in a healthy manner could do wonders to expand the game into its true potential. But to do so, the revenge mechanics need removal, the nerfs need reversing for both CAS weaponry and SPAAG/SAMs, and the counters need to be a staple certainty for everyone. Tanks need maps that aren’t bottom of a barrel sized death traps. Planes need to not be vilified. The mode needs to be set up to where it is effectively ‘whine-proofed’ - to where any complaints of anything being “OP” can generally be deflected back onto the complainer, because nerfs help NOBODY in the end.”
If you seriously think this, I don’t know what to tell you - maybe your years of experience playing the game have blinded you to things that trip up average players.
I think despite our opposed opinions, we can both agree - the average player in WT is really fucking stupid…
In theory, no it isn’t unreasonable. But based on all the arguments put forward over the years, it is painfully clear to me that TO is little more than a half-baked rage-shitpost idea. Its supporters do not act like they are clearly thinking about the implications of said mode both in and of itself (camping-prone maps needing alternative anti-camping mechanism) and on the broader game (queue splitting and devs panicking over queue times).
Literally every single supporter said some variation of “LOL, just try it, CTRL-C, CTRL-V, no planes, you’ll see!”
That’s no serious game mode idea. That’s a rage-bait shitpost.
The game globally needs much better tutorials, I will admit. Hence why I proposed stuff that is intentionally made with the newer folk in mind.
I have never been in support of restricting planes to cockpit view, because both of how jittery cockpit view Mouse Aim is (literally giving me motion sickness despite me having zero history of such) and because I recognize asking for that is a total nonstarter. Mouse Aim is literally WT’s claim to fame.
What I proposed was giving SPAAG lead markers even if they have no radar as compensation for the situational awareness benefits planes get from 3rd person camera. If planes can see better and by hyper-accurate with their ordinance - then SPAAG now can shoot better and more accurately in exchange.
That is intentionally an “anti-whiner” measure in addition to a common sense countermeasure implementation. Everyone should have at least basic, fully-functional, free-to-use and learn counter options to try shooting down enemy CAS with. Obviously this would demand its own proper serious tutorial to fully explain to newer players.
If nobody has spawned a bunch of aircraft, go ahead and spawn your tank if that’s what you want. If nobody has spawned SPAAG and you expect aircraft to show up soon, you may want to consider spawning your SPAAG or CAP. If a bunch of CAS is already up, and you don’t spawn your SPAAG/CAP despite having both at the ready and SP leftover to use them, it’s intentionally on you if your tank is blown sky-high by a bomb.
I have long since recognized that some people will never be satisfied with any level of CAS involvement. They focus on one CAS weapon, scream about it nonstop, Snail eventually nerfs it into the ground, then said people focus on something else until that gets nerfed too, repeat ad infinitum, while totally blind to how each and every one of those nerfs often has deleterious effects on other game modes despite not having the “problem” the nerf was meant to solve. Force-feeding all players common-sense working counters dismantles this mentality and insulates the game from such antics, because if you have the means to help yourself but are choosing neither to use nor learn to use them…suddenly you’re not as much a “helpless victim tanker” as you claim you are.
I genuinely DO want to improve the game, but I recognize that the community is anything but innocent. Extreme playerbase factions focused on their own selfish power fantasies are arguably more harmful to this game’s long-term health than Snail’s business decisions are, IMHO. I lump the diehard CAS mains you mentioned and TO extremists and Zombers in Sim/Air RB and Zomboats in Combined Naval all under the same umbrella - sicknesses that must be purged.
1 Like