How player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem

In a Combined Arms game mode, yes. You, me, and anyone else who feels CAS currently present is “a bother” where nobody else is already trying to kill it should go spawn their own plane to kill it with - no different in practice than picking the correct tank for the given map and BR.

The mode name has needed changing to force it down people’s throats that its not just “tenk bettles” for years.

Modes without CAS do nothing to solve how CAS works in modes with them. The CAS would still lack proper non-player-tank objectives to use its ordinance on. SPAAG and SAMs would still in many cases be a hot mess with overly steep learning curves for average players. The idiotic revenge camera, midair spawns at high speed, snowball-prone SP system, and giant text notification of cap zones changing functioning as “bomb me please” to the enemy team would all still be there.

More fundamentally though, as the majority of tank maps are built implicitly with the assumption of CAS being present to dislodge people from troublesome locations, copy-pasting the game mode and removing CAS threatens to break those maps’ ability to function. A replacement anti-camping function would then need to be added - meaning that even IF you got your nirvana game mode, you’d defeat yourselves because snail would just make the Artillery Support function as “CAS without planes to deliver it.” So you’d STILL die regardless.

Why am I basically certain of this, you might ask me in the future? Because I understand the people who cry about CAS - it’s functionally an oversized victim complex. The moment CAS weapon A gets nerfed, they cheer for a day or two then move to complaining about CAS weapon B. Without CAS present at all, that same mentality will find some new target, most likely involving people camping in spots CAS could previously dislodge easily. Then to respond to that renewed complaining, snail would either 1) butcher the maps at an increased pace to remove all creative spots or 2) add a replacement anti-camping mechanism.

Thus, I propose breaking that victim complex by giving them the means to help themselves, teaching them how to use said means, and making said means purposely simple to use in practice. If they choose not to use them, it’s not my problem, nor the devs’ problem anymore.

We have seen occasionally over the years that when effective, easy-to-use ground-to-air counters are added to the game, most people will shut up complaining about CAS and go use them. That above all else is why I encourage the “if problem X exists, buff Y to counter X” sort of game balance logic. It works.

We CAN fix the mechanical implementation of CAS, and we should. That, I agree wholeheartedly with the CAS haters on.

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I really do not see how it is that much of a difference.

If you know the enemy team will spawn a bunch of CAS, especially under a Sim-styled SP system that makes all planes cease to be idiotic gated-off powerups, and you want to counter that CAS, then you spawn CAP to do it.

If you know the enemy team will spawn a bunch of Tigers, you either spawn something that frontally pens them with ease or is fast enough to go around them instead.

If you get a lane map and have an armored assault gun in a downtier, you go use that.

I really don’t see the difference.

How? My take is anything but disingenuous - it was reinforced by my observation of when the new modern SAMs were introduced, such as the IRIS-T.

Upon introduction, they were all hilariously effective at swatting down CAS. People used them because they were effective.

And most of the complaining about CAS being overpowered ceased to exist. The little that remained came entirely from people who either 1) hadn’t researched the new SAMs yet or 2) refused to use the new SAMs “because they wanted to play TANKS,” in which case their complaints can be disregarded.

But because CAS currently has nothing else to do ingame except kill player tanks, forcing CAS to come to the SAMs to be able to do anything at all, whining from the CAS users eventually led to the new SAMs being neutered somewhat, leading to corresponding return of complaints about CAS being overpowered.

This is where my logic originates - if you give people complaining about X a new tool Y to counter X with, most people will eventually shut up about X and go use Y to kill X. If you then later nerf Y, the same people complaining about X resume complaining about X again.

How is that disingenuous?

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Oh they do, in air modes.

Please stop being dishonest, we all know that even if there was something else to do for air players they would still choose to hunt tank players.

Not if You can’t play what You want/need to die first.

The air user always have advantage as he is dictating state of things.

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If I wanted to dogfight, I’d play the Air modes - not GROUND mode.

Your suggestion that players have the counter to CAS (via CAP) is disingenuous.
Many players in ground battles have neither the vehicles nor the skill-set to fly CAP. They joined the game to get a sense of driving and fighting in tanks.

And assuming they actually do jump into a fighter and manage to somehow shoot down a player who is more than likely much better at them in the air, then what?
You can’t cap with an air unit (excluding the rare helicopter cap) and fighters, for the most part are not nearly as efficient at attacking ground units. That player is now a handicap to the team until an enemy decides to risk another CAS.

People are here to play tanks, not planes.

Not true.
All nerfs could be reverted and CAS could be even more oppressive than it is currently, as people who don’t support that would be long gone anyways.

Already happening as we speak.

Yeah, comparing CAS spam with camping spots is hilarious.

Your skill in this game must be limited if you think you need CAS to dislodge tanks from “troublesome” spots.

Maps can function without any help from the skies, as it’s proven with endless amount of matches that happened without any CAS interference. I’d also ask you to show us some of those highly problematic spots.

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Disingenuous mode names can always be changed. This one and Naval should have had their names changed to be blatantly obvious they were not about just tanks/ships years ago.

No it is not - it is simple observation.

Some players chant how “OP” CAS supposedly is. A minority of those players go so far as to try demanding a separate mode without CAS, while clearly not thinking much, if at all, about the implications.

Snail says no.

That minority proceeds to throw a tissy fit and light community firestorms at every opportunity because they’re salty they don’t get their CAS-free mode.

Snail is of course forced to put out the firestorms, so they nerf CAS.

CAS users adapt eventually or migrate to using the weapons that do still work.

That player minority resumes screaming, completely unaware how their utter refusal to adapt is ruining the entire game for themselves and everyone else.

And this is the core of my suggestion.

  1. Switch to Sim-derived SP system so aircraft of all types are everpresent at game start. This does mean CAS can first-spawn, but so can the CAP to kill it with.
  2. Heavily re-buff the overkill-neutered SPAAGs and SAMs so that players have ground-based systems to kill CAS if they believe they lack the skillset to effectively fly.
  3. Copy the default plane system from Naval, and expand the default SPAAG/SAM system already seen in higher ranks to all BRs.

Then anyone who wants to counter the CAS they claim to hate now has multiple options to do it and always has them available with sufficient SP to use them.

If they steadfastly refuse to not use those counters, it is no longer a game problem, but a player one.

If they joined WT just for playing tanks, they joined under false pretenses.

Either you stay in the air to hunt more unaware tunnel-visioned CAS, or you go land at your runway, eject, spawn a new tank, and do what you will.

Playing CAP and/or SPAAG/SAMs is functionally-speaking as societally necessary as having police, firefighters, mailmen, and teachers - it’s not necessarily glamorous work, but someone has to do it. If nobody spawns CAP, SPAAG, or SAMs to counter CAS, every single player on the team is collectively to blame if their team gets obliterated, because now under my proposal, they had the tools and chose not to use them.

I personally enjoy using CAP, and sometimes also SPAAGs. And if SPAAGs are made more common-sense to use without dozens of games practicing hoping for dumb enough pilots to practice on, I would use them way more.

We know that this solves the problem. Not just the modern SAMs immediately after release, but as a much longer-running example, look at 7.7-9.0. Every single nation has Radar-equipped SPAAGs and/or SAMs to use.

A lot of the complaining about CAS stops as soon as people have the means to help themselves with their own problem.

Another not too distant example was when the Coelian got its correct guns - the APHE allowed it to confidently move into mid-map, exactly where the CAS loves to concentrate on, and the boosted HE belt velocity made hitting gutsy prop CAS considerably easier. Now imagine how much easier still it would be if every non-radar AA had a short-range lead indicator based on crew skill.

The game already has and knows exactly how to solve this problem. Whether they will take the leap to actually do it, however, is not known.

The point is not to stop the bitching, because it should be clear to any outside observer that some people will always bitch about anything and everything interrupting their power fantasy. The only solution that is palatable to the game environment is thus…

Make. Their. Whining. Their. Fault.

And then walk away, leaving them to their ranting.

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God NO!

the number of players choosing CAS would 100% overwhelm the 1 or 2 players choosing CAP.

And experienced players would totally dominate inexperienced players in the low to mid ranks. It would take a long time for players to develop both air and ground skills to the point they can be used effectively in battle.
It’s unrealistic to expect new players to have even a small chance against veterans that can start the battle off in the air. You need to give your ideas a second look.

Did not address the lack of vehicles and/or skills to use CAP.

whose “false pretenses”?

You keep insisting the bulk of players should play the way YOU want the game the played. You have expectations that are totally out of wack with this game.

CBs tell a different story. Your argument is invalid.

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Stop making people out to be dishonest as a way of bolstering your opinion…

Back when the mode came out, Artillery was on the field and I know I used to always go for it, and those got removed because people were crying about how they couldn’t bring in artillery after they had been destroyed.

If you want it solved then stop gatekeeping for the simple sake of wanting your one and only solution just because that’s all that you want.

It’s arguing in bad faith to keep on at this angle, and constantly deride anyone and everyone who actually makes any suggestion other than what you want.

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I’m here to play everything, I suggest you get past the one path only mentality.

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Sorry but:

  1. WWM tests with AI targets proved that people still prefer attacking players rather than AI targets.

  2. If air users wanted to attack AI targets they could do it in Air modes.

This are simple facts, maybe hard to understand but simple that explains why adding more targets for air in mixed modes won’t change much.

From previous topics and probably this too all can read that You don’t want TO for just a sake of it and will argue no matter what. I don’t think there is point in further discussion.

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They give like a 10th of the reward.

They already do.

No it’s just simply a bad idea.

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Do You know what type of missions were in WWM and what was needed to win them?

Not to mention that rewards for air users are far better in air modes, proving that they really play combined mode just for the sake of attacking players.

But looking at the popularity of GRB mode compared to ARB mode, I would say more of them play in GRB and attack ground players.

Bad for people who need to use crutches in order to win agains someone better and people who don’t want any competition.

With TO the balance of combined aspect of the Game would fix itself as all people in teams were there for combined aspect of the game.

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The negativity you espose is just constant with you… We’re not the ones wanting, or needing the game changed to function, but it seems you do…

And any suggestion other than what you demand, gets made out like we don’t know, or understand your tripe, or that we need to have a simple way of killing you hence why we don’t want your tripe.

That’s the overall everything with your nonsense…

So many years touting this silliness, and need for change, and you haven’t got it yet… Do you consistantly tell yourself that ‘This’ll be my year’ as you spring out the door or something?

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What ‘tests’? The objective was to play the match, and one of the fastest ways to finish the match was to get rid of the players.

These weren’t ‘tests’ as I don’t think ANYWHERE that it was even mentioned that it was to test anything.

And what strawman is this twaddle? Nothing to do with the topic at all.

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There is no negativity in stating how things are.

Not gonna respond to more as You again fail to understand that the change would benefit all. For me there is no difference if TO gets added or not.

In a battle where You needed to destroy the convoy even after all players were killed? Sure, thanks for showing that You don’t know anything about this tests done in WWM.

There is no strawman in that, this are just facts.

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You insinuate every time that people don’t understand or that we need crutches to function… That’s negativity.

And, again… ‘You fail to understand’

No, I don’t fail to understand, I just don’t accept that it’s for ‘everyone’ because it’s just you and the roped in masses that support this stupidity.

SO MANY YEARS, and the change hasn’t come through… Give it up already…

Again, what tests? If they were tests, where’s the results then?

It is when you’re talking of Air RB in a thread such as this making out that if we were in Air RB, we’d be going for the AI targets, when some really do do that…

But that’s neither here nor there, it’s nothing to do with this thread…

Hell, your gamemode is nothing to do with this thread as this thread is talking of how player skill and actual use of SPAA effects the CAS threat…

But we already know your wanted position, in a moist paper bag, with no dream of even getting out because it’s all so overwhelming and unable to be fought against…

Classic ULQ… Classic…

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I don’t insinuate I just show and state how things are.

Thanks for proving the point

As gaijin shows us all tests results?

Please, don’t make me laugh. About WWM You can read in topics about it and watch it on YT.

The topic were AI targets and the statement was that if they were added, people would go for it instead of players.

Stating that there already is a mode with AI targets that give players much better results (RP/SL) is just a fact.

Then making a conclusion that if adding AI targets was the solution, then people would prefer to do that in already existing mode instead of attacking players.

Just simple Logic and facts, not empty words.

Still refusing to understand that I’m the one using the air and doing it will, Classic.

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Then you can’t say we fail to understand, or that we need a crutch…

End of story.

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If You fail to understand or need a crutches I will state that out.

@Pangolin_Fan many times said he need air in order to deal with better players not to mention You saying that about well positioned players.