How player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem

[Beeschurger]

@FlyingDoctor

There was no criticism of Statshark itself, as many of them, and those who statcheck regularly, commonly miss that many of the actual stats aren’t shown.

That still doesnt address the actual point i as making.

@FlyingDoctor

This is typically hypocritical.

Calling my position hypocritical would require you to show a contradiction about my claim about stats which would prove that im being hypocritical, but beside calling me words, you showed nothing.

@FlyingDoctor

Again, I didn’t directly criticise statshark, but stats in their entirety

That is like saying that temperature cannot possibly tell us complete picture of how will weather be next day because it doesnt account for humidity and thus we need to dismiss temperature entirely. Its straight up nonsense.

@FlyingDoctor

The pages rambling you’re doing is to spam and overload any response

God forbid a thought is put into argument.

@FlyingDoctor

so I’ll just cut it short, as I really have no desire to be on the forum with this sort of juvenile dog act that goes on here…

Call me names all you want, it does not make the point about statistics suddenly invalid.

@FlyingDoctor

And this is where you fail to acknowledge what’s put forth to you, because you want to flex and berate compared to reading into what’s said.

‘objective data’ that misses a heckton of actual data because not every data is acknowledged.

Okay. So lets have it your way. Does absence of properly tracked assists mean that player with 4.0 K/D, high score, high winrate and thousands of matches is actually performing poorly?

dataset does not become worthless simply because it does not capture every possible variable.

@FlyingDoctor

Where’s this 75k games come from? The fact that ULQ posts up a screenshot and everyone glazes over it compared to actually being critical about it because numbers are bigger, and narratives are reinforced, makes it clear the echo chamber exists, and if you dare to counter that you get dogpiled by a good portion of people just for the simple sake of it.

What are you on about, 75k games is how many games ULQ played for the entiriety of time he plays Warthunder, just open his profile?

@FlyingDoctor

As I said earlier on, there is no discussion here, it’s all a debate, and it’s not how it should be because there is no back and forth, it’s just a desperate want and demand that someone be wrong at all costs, so much so you have random wannabe supporters jump in to just abuse people to no end.

Completly irrelevant to topic at hand, which is either how player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem, or whenever statshark data can accurately track someones skill.

@FlyingDoctor

If the premise of the stats being factual, ignores the caps, and the actual playtime, then you can’t place that much faith in it covering the assists and being relative to actual contribution as much as what this guy wants to put out.

Assists still have impact on score and leadeboard placement. They just dont vanish.

And ignoring the actual playtime? Person can have thousand of games and still be bad. Thats a simple fact.

[Beeschurger]

@ParryACO-psn

You don’t need to like him

And I dont and I never will if this is how he wants to continue.

@ParryACO-psn

but you should at least respect him

respect is earned.

@ParryACO-psn

and the angle he’s coming from

which has been dismissive of everyone ever since this topic was created; and then accusing others of dismissing his views.

Karma is free.

@ParryACO-psn

he’s pointed out critical flaws in the reasoning that can’t be addressed with a few videos or cherrypicked stats.

But hes the one talking about cherrypicked stats and few videos.

I simply opened ULQs statshark. ULQ played 75k battles total / 7 500 ever since statshark became a thing.

If ULQs performance is consistent across such large dataset, and the performance lines up with what ULQ says about CAS/SPAA interaction, you cannot conclude that either data is cherrypicked (were looking at way too large sample size) and/or ULQ is lying that CAS has upper hand over SPAA (ULQ performance with both SPAA and CAS would be entirely different if that was true, it would be much closer to each other, instead of there being massive difference in favor of CAS).

Few arguments he presents do not invalidate the conclusion as a whole.

“Statshark does not capture everything” does not suddenly make the presented data worthless. Yeah statshark does not track assist directly. Does that mean ULQ having KD of 7.81 with thai L-39 suddenly becomes unreliable metric of how he performs with it?

[ParryACO-psn]

@Beeschurger

I simply opened ULQs statshark. ULQ played 75k battles total / 7 500 ever since statshark became a thing.

Which is a respectable amount but he’s only one person. The sample size is definitely reasonable, however.

Statshark does tend to not give ALL information though. Not that this is statshark’s fault; it can only scrape data from post-match results, after all.

@Beeschurger

respect is earned.

While this is true, we should still attempt to be amicable with one another.

@Beeschurger

which has been dismissive of everyone ever since this topic was created; and then accusing others of dismissing his views.

I would argue that the dismissiveness is both ways. Regardless of who started what first.

@Beeschurger

“Statshark does not capture everything” does not suddenly make the presented data worthless.

Fair enough. There’s more to it than K/D but this is beside the point.

@Beeschurger

Does that mean ULQ having KD of 7.81 with thai L-39 suddenly becomes unreliable metric of how he performs with it?

I suppose not, since it’s straightforward enough.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@FlyingDoctor

He could simply be spamming that plane when it’s going to get many kills, and then hover out from the battle to preserve themselves… AKA statpadding, because really, the KDR can be gamed by being picky on the battles you engage in compared to actually taking the death and respawning in something else, as the rest of us do…

You think that someone being scared to die to prevent their KDR dipping is going to be good for the team?

That would be eaisly seen when compared to the number of battles/spawns in said vehicle.

I guess this is not the case right?

@FlyingDoctor

I am… It’s not like he’s showing the ones where he’s messed up and not got a good outcome… But you’d not think it with the way you’re glazing…

Again it is either You haven’t read what I’m discussing or You just ignore it.

I never said that I don’t die or that the vehicle never dies, of course it dies.

The difference and the point I make is that it is only when You make a mistake, not when SPAA is actually able to do anything.

The balance is when both parties have equal chances, when one can win only when the other makes a mistake that is not balance as if he haven’t, he would always win no matter if one party playes perfectly.

[БЕИ]

@ParryACO-psn

cherrypicked stats.

While no stat system is 100% perfect, core metrics like KD and winning rate do not lie over a large sample size of games. You see, if a player claims they do “invisible things” to help the team, those actions should eventually lead to wins. A consistently low win rate and negative kd proves their impact is negative, simple as that, no need to brag about those empty stats bro

[ULQ_LOVER]

@FlyingDoctor

Exactly, but you don’t show that to these people who are glazing you up to be the best player out there…

I do when I talk about K/D as in the K/D, D stands for deaths.

@FlyingDoctor

And that is ignoring the slight possibility that someone gets you, rather than just you making a mistake.

If someone would get me without me just making a plain mistake it would mean that SPAA actually have equal chances.

There are few of SPAAs that are able to put an “equal” fight and I’m happy to talk about it, sadly in most cases as we talk it is better to spawn the air in order to deal with the air.

[FlyingDoctor]

@ULQ_LOVER

I do when I talk about K/D as in the K/D, D stands for deaths.

That’s an absolute lie… Where in the hell have you even acknowledged that some of your runs don’t get a positive net return?

None…

@ULQ_LOVER

If someone would get me without me just making a plain mistake it would mean that SPAA actually have equal chances.

There are few of SPAAs that are able to put an “equal” fight and I’m happy to talk about it, sadly in most cases as we talk it is better to spawn the air in order to deal with the air.

Look at this complete nonsense with what you’ve just said… What an ARTIST…

NOT ONCE HAVE YOU EVER SAID ABOUT ANY BAD MATCH…

Always flexing about how good you are against any ground target, ignoring any SPAA players skill, just constant ‘You have to make a mistake’ against the SPAA… What a load of absolute goddamn tripe.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@FlyingDoctor

That’s an absolute lie… Where in the hell have you even acknowledged that some of your runs don’t get a positive net return?

None…

Again, K/D has the “D” that stands for ‘Deaths’.

Not to mention that I talk about what vehicles can do, not what I can do.

@FlyingDoctor

NOT ONCE HAVE YOU EVER SAID ABOUT ANY BAD MATCH…

In a discussion about how vehicle perform You require me to talk about how I made a mistake and died? Should I show You how I crash to the ground because I don’t pay attention or talk with my wife?

What does it have to do with vehicle capabilities?

@FlyingDoctor

Always flexing about how good you are against any ground target

Again, that is not the point. The point is what vehicle is capable of doing.

[FlyingDoctor]

Keep talking it up, you’ve already proven my point… Not once have you EVER said about having a bad run, EVERY post you’ve made showing every ‘good play’ has just been that, and every time you have made out that you have to make the mistake for you to be gotten…

That’s what the issue is with you chiming in and cherrypicking because you demand proof from me everytime, but you can’t admit that you don’t get it, all the time…

[ULQ_LOVER]

@FlyingDoctor

Not once have you EVER said about having a bad run

In the name “K/D” the “D” stands for deaths.

As long as You ignore it, there is no point in further discussion.

[FlyingDoctor]

@ULQ_LOVER

In the name “K/D” the “D” stands for deaths.

As long as You ignore it, there is no point in further discussion.

You’re ignoring the point because you know I’m right…

Not once have you admitted that you have a bad match, and every time people glaze you in here you play this game to avoid acknowledging it, same as Bees… It’s a tactic that you all use to avoid the discussion going any way you can’t handle it going.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@FlyingDoctor

Not once have you admitted that you have a bad match…

I will repet myself:

@ULQ_LOVER

In the name “K/D” the “D” stands for deaths.

and:

@ULQ_LOVER

In a discussion about how vehicle perform You require me to talk about how I made a mistake and died? Should I show You how I crash to the ground because I don’t pay attention or talk with my wife?

What does it have to do with vehicle capabilities?

[FlyingDoctor]

And I’ll post this…

How player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem

Exactly, but you don’t show that to these people who are glazing you up to be the best player out there… It’s not that I haven’t read anything, it’s just these guys are all so blind to any possibility of it being otherwise. And that is ignoring the slight possibility that someone gets you, rather than just you making a mistake. Like, what the heck is this double speak nonsense?

It’s always a mistake on your part, not an acknowledgement that someone could be skilled to get you, AS PER THE THREADS TOPIC…

[ULQ_LOVER]

@FlyingDoctor

It’s always a mistake on your part, not an acknowledgement that someone could be skilled to get you, AS PER THE THREADS TOPIC…

Again:

@ULQ_LOVER

In a discussion about how vehicle perform You require me to talk about how I made a mistake and died? Should I show You how I crash to the ground because I don’t pay attention or talk with my wife?

What does it have to do with vehicle capabilities?

If there was a case where I couldn’t do anything to SPAA and it was because it had equal chances against me, I would talk about it and tell everyone to use it.

Not to mention using it myself.

The topic talks about player skill with SPAA, it can be talked about but the problem is that SPAA don’t have equal chances and have to rely on air user doing badly, that is the issue.

[FlyingDoctor]

No…

You’re just deflecting now…

@ULQ_LOVER

The topic talks about player skill with SPAA, it can be talked about but the problem is that SPAA don’t have equal chances and have to rely on air user doing badly, that is the issue.

No, you have to make a mistake because no-one can possibly get you… Absolutely hilarious.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@FlyingDoctor

No…

You’re just deflecting now…

There is no deflection on my part.

@FlyingDoctor

No, you have to make a mistake because no-one can possibly get you… Absolutely hilarious.

If You rely on Your enemy making a mistake and not You doing well (if You are able to do anything in first place) it tells a lot about You.

Sadly SPAA players in most cases can’t rely on their vehicle being able to do much to the air unit without air unit doing poorly in the game and not knowing what his vehicle is capable of.

[ParryACO-psn]

@БЕИ

A consistently low win rate and negative kd proves their impact is negative, simple as that, no need to brag about those empty stats bro

What I am saying is despite the large sample size, he is only one person.

Low winrate isn’t reflective of an individual’s skills since that’s more of a team metric.

@FlyingDoctor

Not once have you EVER said about having a bad run, EVERY post you’ve made showing every ‘good play’

If the average kill to death ratio is 7 kills 1 death, wouldn’t that mean that death is the misplay or mistake?

[Sytryse]

The skills of SPAA players depend on several factors in battle having players bringing SPAA from different nation you need to rely on for protection against CAS.

[Beeschurger]

@ParryACO-psn

Which is a respectable amount but he’s only one person. The sample size is definitely reasonable, however.

it is sufficient data set to support his claims that CAS is more powerfull than SPAA.

@ParryACO-psn

Statshark does tend to not give ALL information though. Not that this is statshark’s fault; it can only scrape data from post-match results, after all.

No one claims it does, but the data it does track tend to give a sufficiently good picture about how player performs.

@ParryACO-psn

While this is true, we should still attempt to be amicable with one another.

Im trying to be amicable with you since thats how you entered our convo. If it stays that way, I have no reason to be rude.

@ParryACO-psn

I would argue that the dismissiveness is both ways. Regardless of who started what first.

There is a point in every convo where it is clear the other person is not here to discuss, hes here to state his version of truth and wont budge in lieu of presented evidence while not providing any of his own. At that point it is perfectly fine to dismiss whatever he is saying.

@ParryACO-psn

Fair enough. There’s more to it than K/D

well yes, theres more to stats than just K/D but chances are, if your stats are high across the board, youre good player, and if one metric is lagging behind, it can be explained.

As БЕИ said:

@БЕИ

if a player claims they do “invisible things” to help the team, those actions should eventually lead to wins

If flyingdoctor is such insane support player whose supportive indirect actions are always beneficial to the team more than directly taking out enemies, you would think he would have some insane winrate without neccesarily having high KD per game - that however is not the truth.

His all time winrate is 51.08%, 3% above all time median global winrate of 48%.

Hell, I would consider myself support player since i have no issue guarding a part of map when there is no fighting to secure a cap, and my all time winrate is sitting at 58.72%.

And how does FlyingDoctor refutes this?

Winrate is mostly team dependent.

Which is a nonsensical claim, because it implies that if someone has high winrate, its mostly due to mostly being in “winning” teams, excluding his influence. In other words, its mostly luck according to him.

Sure, over the sample size of 20 battles or so, I could see that, you can get lucky.

But FlyingDoctor has played 15k games since he started with WT. Over such large dataset, the only constant in sea of variables is him.

You can win one or ten poker games and those all can be luck, but if you win 10 000 poker games, luck cannot be the main influencing variable.

Similiarly, you can lose one game, thats bad luck, but if you lose 10 000 poker games, are you unlucky or are you just bad at poker?

[ParryACO-psn]

@Beeschurger

And how does FlyingDoctor refutes this?

Winrate is mostly team dependent.

Which is a nonsensical claim, because it implies that if someone has high winrate, its mostly due to mostly being in “winning” teams, excluding his influence. In other words, its mostly luck according to him.

I’d argue luck has a decent role to play in winning a match and there’s times where you yourself do everything you possibly can to win but it just isn’t enough.

The luck part is mainly who and what you’re matched up against and who you’re matched with. I personally wouldn’t say it’s mostly luck though. Even though luck plays some factor into it.

@Beeschurger

Im trying to be amicable with you since thats how you entered our convo. If it stays that way, I have no reason to be rude.

Fair enough.

@Beeschurger

You can win one or ten poker games and those all can be luck, but if you win 10 000 poker games, luck cannot be the main influencing variable.

Similiarly, you can lose one game, thats bad luck, but if you lose 10 000 poker games, are you unlucky or are you just bad at poker?

I’d argue 50/50; luck of the draw is only part of the winning formula. The rest is lying your arse off and knowing the game.