SPAA don’t have any issue engaging aircraft currently, especially 1980s radar SPAA being pitted against 1940s and 50s planes.
There’s only a handful of SPAA that struggle against air, but I’m pretty sure most people would prefer playing the ZSU-57 as a TD over actually playing it as an SPAA.
unkillable spawncamper? ive never seen one.
regardless, its a map design issue. instead of being defensive about tank-only, it would make sense to push for a massive map upgrade, to rework size and terrain across the board. thats the only valid solution.
looks like the forum tradition is still alive, flagging a comment when someone responds in a way that makes it hard to write semi believable ragebait
You know, this game has a lot more vehicles that predate the 1980’s and don’t have radar.
And they don’t have any issues engaging aircraft currently. 7.0+ SPAA is just especially overpowered.
Do you ever get tired of being this way when the cas is clearly the problem
There is word for that but it seems is not allowed in discussion because he called mod to remove it.
You are trying to convince people him because he will denied anyway.
Except…CAS itself actually isn’t.
The way it is implemented as a dumb killstreak powerup IS. As are the people who irrationally hate CAS - they have caused more damage to the game’s overall playability than the CAS itself could possibly have done.
And the irony is that all this shit is in fact quite solvable without needing to add new game modes.
The idiotic game mechanics that allow it to be so annoying need total removal - the kill camera, the midair spawn, the “sky is for heroes” spawn point system, and the giant text messages on cap zones being taken over functionally acting as “please bomb/rocket/missile guy here.”
Make the counters to CAS everpresent and downright piss-easy to take down CAS with. Undo all the nerfs to SPAAGs and SAMs, both to their anti-air and anti-tank performance. Copy over Naval’s concept of default planes force-fed into every player’s deck. Expand the default SPAAG system of high tiers down to all BRs. For CAS to even hope to be balanced, the counters have to work, and every player must have the counters by default with the option to bring more of their own.
And finally, start adding the missing objectives for both planes and tanks to kill. Planes mostly didn’t go after tanks directly but utterly shredded logistics and bunkers - yet current CAS doesn’t have these available to kill, where logistical pain can be simply represented via ticket hits.
Tanks in general need much larger maps, objectives that actually fit larger maps (not dumb 3 caps), and more things to do besides just try finding each other or hiding from CAS.
As far as I’m concerned, CAS is unfairly demonized when it’s dropped into an environment that gives it literally nothing else to do BUT be the biggest pain in the ass possible.
Imo, trying to balance CAS with SPAA is the wrong way to go. Instead, SPAAs should be made cheap disposable deterrents, and players should be given more incentive to spawn CAP as an actual counter.
I view it as a “stuff every conceivable counter down the whiner’s throats until they choke,” sort of situation, so why not both?
SPAAG need to be just about as easy to use as CAS is, approximately with the same learning curve as learning every other tank cannon. We cannot have SPAAG be treated like a commodity but be priced like a luxury in regards to their learning curve, or we solve nothing. To that end, as I have proposed before, I would:
Separately, on the aircraft side of things:
Then every single player has all the possible tools they could need by default, and can bring their own with them if they research and crew them. But its their choice if they learn to use, let alone bother spawning at all, with those appropriate counters.
Then the problem solves itself - the “whur muh tenk onli mode?” people are effectively told to put up or shut up.
Why? Because I dare to suggest CAS isn’t the issue in and of itself?
I’ve played this game for over a decade. Time and time and time again, I see more often than not the exact same people rant endlessly about “how they are helpless against CAS.” Snail responds to such crying by repeatedly nerfing CAS weaponry, which also has nasty collateral damage effects on Air RB and Naval RB, that at multiple points in the game’s history caused CAS weaponry to become so unreliable that Light Pillboxes were indestructible without using cannons and Player-controlled ships were often immune.
Therefore, to stop the idiotic repeated nerfing, I choose to go after a different target.
The people doing the complaining.
You say you’re “helpless” against a Maverick from orbit? Or against a P-47 stuffed to the gills with bombs and rockets?
Then I propose giving people like you the exact tools to not be helpless anymore. But in exchange, you now have no excuse left to complain with - if you have the tools to kill the CAS you hate by default in every match, and you choose not to use them, it’s now a problem with you, not the game, therefore justification to keep on blindly nerfing CAS weaponry evaporates with your salty tears.
I’m not going to dare claim that the people who hate CAS are completely bereft of valid criticisms, but nerfing CAS weapons isn’t the answer, and Gaijin’s consistent denial of modes without CAS should have told you by now that said modes simply aren’t happening before the heat death of the universe.
Therefore, I talk actual solutions to the messes - give people the means to help themselves and teach them how to use them. After all, isn’t it much more satisfying to kill the thing you hate with your own two hands?
You see that CAS ?
Just spawn a plane of your own and kill it, you shouldn’t even play tanks in a tank mode.
Gaijin could’ve solved this CAS issue extremely easily, but I guess they aren’t really keen in killing their combined aspect, regardless how bad it actually is.
In a Combined Arms game mode, yes. You, me, and anyone else who feels CAS currently present is “a bother” where nobody else is already trying to kill it should go spawn their own plane to kill it with - no different in practice than picking the correct tank for the given map and BR.
The mode name has needed changing to force it down people’s throats that its not just “tenk bettles” for years.
Modes without CAS do nothing to solve how CAS works in modes with them. The CAS would still lack proper non-player-tank objectives to use its ordinance on. SPAAG and SAMs would still in many cases be a hot mess with overly steep learning curves for average players. The idiotic revenge camera, midair spawns at high speed, snowball-prone SP system, and giant text notification of cap zones changing functioning as “bomb me please” to the enemy team would all still be there.
More fundamentally though, as the majority of tank maps are built implicitly with the assumption of CAS being present to dislodge people from troublesome locations, copy-pasting the game mode and removing CAS threatens to break those maps’ ability to function. A replacement anti-camping function would then need to be added - meaning that even IF you got your nirvana game mode, you’d defeat yourselves because snail would just make the Artillery Support function as “CAS without planes to deliver it.” So you’d STILL die regardless.
Why am I basically certain of this, you might ask me in the future? Because I understand the people who cry about CAS - it’s functionally an oversized victim complex. The moment CAS weapon A gets nerfed, they cheer for a day or two then move to complaining about CAS weapon B. Without CAS present at all, that same mentality will find some new target, most likely involving people camping in spots CAS could previously dislodge easily. Then to respond to that renewed complaining, snail would either 1) butcher the maps at an increased pace to remove all creative spots or 2) add a replacement anti-camping mechanism.
Thus, I propose breaking that victim complex by giving them the means to help themselves, teaching them how to use said means, and making said means purposely simple to use in practice. If they choose not to use them, it’s not my problem, nor the devs’ problem anymore.
We have seen occasionally over the years that when effective, easy-to-use ground-to-air counters are added to the game, most people will shut up complaining about CAS and go use them. That above all else is why I encourage the “if problem X exists, buff Y to counter X” sort of game balance logic. It works.
We CAN fix the mechanical implementation of CAS, and we should. That, I agree wholeheartedly with the CAS haters on.
I really do not see how it is that much of a difference.
If you know the enemy team will spawn a bunch of CAS, especially under a Sim-styled SP system that makes all planes cease to be idiotic gated-off powerups, and you want to counter that CAS, then you spawn CAP to do it.
If you know the enemy team will spawn a bunch of Tigers, you either spawn something that frontally pens them with ease or is fast enough to go around them instead.
If you get a lane map and have an armored assault gun in a downtier, you go use that.
I really don’t see the difference.
How? My take is anything but disingenuous - it was reinforced by my observation of when the new modern SAMs were introduced, such as the IRIS-T.
Upon introduction, they were all hilariously effective at swatting down CAS. People used them because they were effective.
And most of the complaining about CAS being overpowered ceased to exist. The little that remained came entirely from people who either 1) hadn’t researched the new SAMs yet or 2) refused to use the new SAMs “because they wanted to play TANKS,” in which case their complaints can be disregarded.
But because CAS currently has nothing else to do ingame except kill player tanks, forcing CAS to come to the SAMs to be able to do anything at all, whining from the CAS users eventually led to the new SAMs being neutered somewhat, leading to corresponding return of complaints about CAS being overpowered.
This is where my logic originates - if you give people complaining about X a new tool Y to counter X with, most people will eventually shut up about X and go use Y to kill X. If you then later nerf Y, the same people complaining about X resume complaining about X again.
How is that disingenuous?
Oh they do, in air modes.
Please stop being dishonest, we all know that even if there was something else to do for air players they would still choose to hunt tank players.
Not if You can’t play what You want/need to die first.
The air user always have advantage as he is dictating state of things.
If I wanted to dogfight, I’d play the Air modes - not GROUND mode.
Your suggestion that players have the counter to CAS (via CAP) is disingenuous.
Many players in ground battles have neither the vehicles nor the skill-set to fly CAP. They joined the game to get a sense of driving and fighting in tanks.
And assuming they actually do jump into a fighter and manage to somehow shoot down a player who is more than likely much better at them in the air, then what?
You can’t cap with an air unit (excluding the rare helicopter cap) and fighters, for the most part are not nearly as efficient at attacking ground units. That player is now a handicap to the team until an enemy decides to risk another CAS.
People are here to play tanks, not planes.
Not true.
All nerfs could be reverted and CAS could be even more oppressive than it is currently, as people who don’t support that would be long gone anyways.
Already happening as we speak.
Yeah, comparing CAS spam with camping spots is hilarious.
Your skill in this game must be limited if you think you need CAS to dislodge tanks from “troublesome” spots.
Maps can function without any help from the skies, as it’s proven with endless amount of matches that happened without any CAS interference. I’d also ask you to show us some of those highly problematic spots.
Disingenuous mode names can always be changed. This one and Naval should have had their names changed to be blatantly obvious they were not about just tanks/ships years ago.
No it is not - it is simple observation.
Some players chant how “OP” CAS supposedly is. A minority of those players go so far as to try demanding a separate mode without CAS, while clearly not thinking much, if at all, about the implications.
Snail says no.
That minority proceeds to throw a tissy fit and light community firestorms at every opportunity because they’re salty they don’t get their CAS-free mode.
Snail is of course forced to put out the firestorms, so they nerf CAS.
CAS users adapt eventually or migrate to using the weapons that do still work.
That player minority resumes screaming, completely unaware how their utter refusal to adapt is ruining the entire game for themselves and everyone else.
And this is the core of my suggestion.
Then anyone who wants to counter the CAS they claim to hate now has multiple options to do it and always has them available with sufficient SP to use them.
If they steadfastly refuse to not use those counters, it is no longer a game problem, but a player one.
If they joined WT just for playing tanks, they joined under false pretenses.
Either you stay in the air to hunt more unaware tunnel-visioned CAS, or you go land at your runway, eject, spawn a new tank, and do what you will.
Playing CAP and/or SPAAG/SAMs is functionally-speaking as societally necessary as having police, firefighters, mailmen, and teachers - it’s not necessarily glamorous work, but someone has to do it. If nobody spawns CAP, SPAAG, or SAMs to counter CAS, every single player on the team is collectively to blame if their team gets obliterated, because now under my proposal, they had the tools and chose not to use them.
I personally enjoy using CAP, and sometimes also SPAAGs. And if SPAAGs are made more common-sense to use without dozens of games practicing hoping for dumb enough pilots to practice on, I would use them way more.
We know that this solves the problem. Not just the modern SAMs immediately after release, but as a much longer-running example, look at 7.7-9.0. Every single nation has Radar-equipped SPAAGs and/or SAMs to use.
A lot of the complaining about CAS stops as soon as people have the means to help themselves with their own problem.
Another not too distant example was when the Coelian got its correct guns - the APHE allowed it to confidently move into mid-map, exactly where the CAS loves to concentrate on, and the boosted HE belt velocity made hitting gutsy prop CAS considerably easier. Now imagine how much easier still it would be if every non-radar AA had a short-range lead indicator based on crew skill.
The game already has and knows exactly how to solve this problem. Whether they will take the leap to actually do it, however, is not known.
The point is not to stop the bitching, because it should be clear to any outside observer that some people will always bitch about anything and everything interrupting their power fantasy. The only solution that is palatable to the game environment is thus…
Make. Their. Whining. Their. Fault.
And then walk away, leaving them to their ranting.
God NO!
the number of players choosing CAS would 100% overwhelm the 1 or 2 players choosing CAP.
And experienced players would totally dominate inexperienced players in the low to mid ranks. It would take a long time for players to develop both air and ground skills to the point they can be used effectively in battle.
It’s unrealistic to expect new players to have even a small chance against veterans that can start the battle off in the air. You need to give your ideas a second look.
Did not address the lack of vehicles and/or skills to use CAP.
whose “false pretenses”?
You keep insisting the bulk of players should play the way YOU want the game the played. You have expectations that are totally out of wack with this game.
CBs tell a different story. Your argument is invalid.