How player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem

[Beeschurger]

@An_Pigeon

When they had more arty it was less of a camp fest.

Beeschurger:

looking at my date of registration on WoT, I played from 2012 to 2017 (so five years, not seven as i initially stated). arty was THE most infuriating part of the campfest - some dude just watching hentai on his second monitor, playing what was essentialy a point-and-click adventure instead of the game, with birds eye view of the battlefield in the real time even with WW2 arty…yeah no thanks. Never again.

@An_Pigeon

without cas to dislodge a tick which you cannot get out

Im sorry but you yet have to provide an example of position that can be cleared with CAS only.

@An_Pigeon

It never used to

Again, I actively played from 2012 to 2017 and most matches were either quintessential trench warfare for the first 10 minutes before someone got lucky with spotting; or corner camping for the first 10 minutes of the match if it was city map before someone finally left the heavy tank/tank destroyer UFC octagon victorious and opened a flanking route.

On rare occasions, there was a map that allowed you to actually push through after initial clash like Sacred Valley temple area (had to google name of this one up, apparently its been long removed lol. im old).

My experience playing WoT was vastly different to warthunder, where aggresive pushing and flanking is the name of the game.

@An_Pigeon

Why does this take me to a duran duran song xD

tis a meme.

@An_Pigeon

due to not being monitarily worth it.

and we know this how? Clearly theres demand, all gaijin has to do is to provide supply, and they can do at minimal cost when they can just copypaste standard GRB code but remove plane spawns.

Hell, you can currently set up TO only game in customs by deselecting checkbox for allowed
vehicle classes.

Like in the example I provided earlier to pangolin, say you have 1000 players in GRB. 800 of them spend money on the game, remaning 200 are dissatisfied with current state of the game so they wont spend a dime.

Why wouldnt gaijin want these 200 players to spend their money on warthunder if all it takes is to supply them with a game mode with minimal costs? By not meeting their demand, they wont get them to spend money on warthunder; in fact they might lose them entirely to competition. Not catering to demand does not make sense from business standpoint.

@An_Pigeon

They have stated many times, that they wont implement a TO mode as well.

As ive read in one naval thread, Gaijin back in 2016/7/8(?) also denied ships like Yamato and Iowa from ever being added due to them supposedly not fitting the warthunder format.

Obviously, market and demand changed over the time, so they adapted with their supply.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@An_Pigeon

I’m well aware.
However my point is TD are far more prominant campers than lights, which results always in a stalemate.
without cas to dislodge a tick which you cannot get out (in WoTs case ARTY) they are allowed more freedome to camp

There was advanced game-mode test where CAS costed more than 1000 SP and one team was defending while other was attacking.

There was no issue with “stalemate” even as the mode nature suggested that something like that would happen.

People don’t need CAS.

[QTip_44]

@An_Pigeon

American desert has 1 in D3 if i remember righlty.

Sands of sinai has a few specifically related one near the C flank.

Abandoned factory also has a one near A where you sit inside a building and tbe only real way to get a player out is through CAS bombing them or completely steam rolling the team.

Thats just 3 off rhe top of my head while Im bed bound.

None of those need CAS to counter.

[gangsterism]

@Ghost_of_TelAviv

Little too late for that.

there is no reason why it should be too late for a tank-only gamemode
once again youre showing that you would post anything because youre terrified of having less bugs to squash with your CAS.

and since you love to fail to interpret whats being said, i didnt mean to say that all ground players will migrate to TO and mixed battles will die.
and in case it did happen, it would confirm the obvious, which is that a majority of ground players dont give a shit about CAS or related gameplay features

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Beeschurger

Im sorry but you yet have to provide an example of position that can be cleared with CAS only.

Going by that logic . . .

You can theoretically shoot down any WW2 plane with a roof mounted machine gun, so SPAA is unnecessary.

[Beeschurger]

@Pangolin_Fan

You can theoretically shoot down any WW2 plane with a roof mounted machine gun, so SPAA is unnecessary.

Oh dont get me wrong.

Im holding a position that CAS can clear a position more effectively and faster than tank, but I doubt that theres single position on all of the maps in game that can be cleared with help of CAS only (or rather, that CAS is neccesary) as An Pigeon claimed.

[An_Pigeon]

@Beeschurger

with help of CAS only (or rather, that CAS is neccesary) as An Pigeon claimed.

I never explicitly stated with cas only.

I stated that several maps would need an overhaul due to inherently over power positions which CAS is used to remove them.

Wording is everything.

[Pangolin_Fan]

There might not be any spots where it’s 100% impossible to kill any tank of any skill level, but there’s plenty of maps with certain spots for certain tanks where killing the camper is near impossible for an average or even above average player unless the camper screws up MASSIVELY.

This is what makes CAS such a great balancing feature. It levels the battlefield no matter how OP the tank or the spot is.

[Beeschurger]

@An_Pigeon

I never explicitly stated with cas only.

I stated that several maps would need an overhaul due to inherently over power positions which CAS is used to remove them.

aight, you didnt say it directly, i acknowledge that.

But if you think theres exist a power position that necessities use of CAS (power position which CAS is used to remove) and map rework would be required for such position in a mode without CAS, you are pretty much implying it.

You cant have power position that would require map rework for mode without CAS and at the same time claim CAS isnt neccesary to clear it.

Either such position doesnt require CAS to clear it and as such can be cleared with tanks only, meaning map rework isnt required, or

such position would be impossible to clear out without CAS, hence neccesiting the map rework.

[Beeschurger]

@Pangolin_Fan

Had to see this one in test drive.

Yes, for locking down the south spawn, this position indeed is powerful so you are correct in that regard.

BUT

you are entirely exposed to counterattack from E/F 5/6

so to call such position

@Pangolin_Fan

spots for certain tanks where killing the camper is near impossible

would be overexaggeration.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@An_Pigeon

I stated that several maps would need an overhaul due to inherently over power positions which CAS is used to remove them.

Which indicates that this positions can’t be taken care out without help of CAS which is wrong.

@Pangolin_Fan

There might not be any spots where it’s 100% impossible to kill any tank of any skill level, but there’s plenty of maps with certain spots for certain tanks where killing the camper is near impossible for an average or even above average player unless the camper screws up MASSIVELY.

Simple HE would destroy You there.

@Beeschurger

would be overexaggeration.

Like with everything that “needs” CAS to take care of it.

[MotorolaCRO]

@An_Pigeon

Im saying the total removal of it will encourage more people to abuse spots which are blatantly one sided.

Or will actually force people to learn the maps and how to go around their problems.

@An_Pigeon

I struggle to spawn my own CAS , and relegate planes mostly to CAP duty.

That’s why DIRCM helicopters are the ones being used to abuse ground.

@An_Pigeon

I played over 1 /4 of my game timeas ground only, my biggest learning curve was realising that CAP is essential to grb.

Someone just doesn’t want to play aircraft, it’s not hard to understand that.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Beeschurger

you are entirely exposed to counterattack from E/F 5/6

The 8,8cm Flak’s cannon is the perfect height to allow me to stay in the lil ridge. An Su-152 tried to flank me from the right and a Sherman tried flanking from the left but failed.

The Sherman tried to shoot me but hitting the tiny area above my cannon just isn’t reasonable for a new or average player.

The Su-152 was audible long before he had a firing position so, iirc, he died as he rounded the corner.

@Beeschurger

would be overexaggeration.

That’s not an exaggeration, especially considering that was 4.0. The only tank that even let alone damaged me was a Btr-152. If it wasn’t for CAS, I would have been able to continue spawncamping till the match ended.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@Pangolin_Fan

That’s not an exaggeration, especially considering that was 4.0. The only tank that even let alone damaged me was a Btr-152. If it wasn’t for CAS, I would have been able to continue spawncamping till the match ended.

lmao

A simple HE would end this

[Flexmore]

I do agree with Ckasaron though. Adding TO would make it a precedent for smaller groups to also start crying to have their own mode minus x-vehicles. It also wouldn’t address the problem people have with SPAAs having the absolute ability to just shred tanks. “Oh, you could just nerf them and take their belts away in that mode”, I think that’s a little bit too short of a viewpoint. Also starter and endgame SPAAs became absolute worthless to grind since they don’t do anything half the time. Essentially these tt-branches of the tree would just sit there and became useless. Giving every player the ability to defend himself against CAS is objectively the better purpose. Sure, I don’t like playing aircraft myself, but if I would be given the opportunity to jump into a CAP-plane and get rid of my CAS oppononent so I can continue playing the round uninterrupted? I’d take the jump. Granted, you’d need to get used to flying planes first, but it shouldn’t be much of a struggle anyway considering you have to switch up your playstyle anyway between different nations, brs and tt-branches.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@Flexmore

Also starter and endgame SPAAs became absolute worthless to grind since they don’t do anything half the time.

Of course they would be used, in existing Ground RB mode where with only people wanting combined aspect of the game, there would be much more air.

[Beeschurger]

@Pangolin_Fan

The Sherman tried to shoot me but hitting the tiny area above my cannon just isn’t reasonable for a new or average player.

since its RB, your gun cam is in your barrel. thus, if you were looking down that spawn, anything above the barrel would be visible.

single 75mm HE shell would solve the situation in its entiriety.

and thats excluding someone attacking you from the aforementioned E/F 5/6.

@Pangolin_Fan

That’s not an exaggeration, especially considering that was 4.0.

many 4.0 tanks have access to HE shells.

again, excluding someone attacking you from the aforementioned E/F 5/6.

[Beeschurger]

@Flexmore

Adding TO would make it a precedent for smaller groups to also start crying to have their own mode minus x-vehicles

@Flexmore

It also wouldn’t address the problem people have with SPAAs having the absolute ability to just shred tanks.

issue that could be solved by TO mode having its own separate BRs for vehicles, just like arcade/realistic/sim does, as now you could balance SPAA only according to their A2G capability and could completly disregard their A2A capability.

@Flexmore

Also starter and endgame SPAAs became absolute worthless to grind since they don’t do anything half the time.

They would still be useful for the standard GRB mode, as no one is calling for it being replaced by TO.

@Flexmore

but if I would be given the opportunity to jump into a CAP-plane and get rid of my CAS oppononent so I can continue playing the round uninterrupted? I’d take the jump

earlier in this thread i provided an example that CAP isnt always the best solution.

@Flexmore

Granted, you’d need to get used to flying planes first, but it shouldn’t be much of a struggle anyway considering you have to switch up your playstyle anyway between different nations, brs and tt-branches.

If person never played planes before, I highly doubt he would have knowledge neccesary to operate top tier aircraft. Id say he would even struggle to warm up AIM-9B, moreso knowing when to launch it so that it connects.

And then it would come to matchup of experienced player in CAS plane vs. inexperienced player in CAP. One would absolutely clown on the other, and it wouldnt be the CAP plane doing the clowning.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Beeschurger

single 75mm HE shell would solve the situation in its entiriety.

No lol, it does not.

There’s a total of like 6 or 7 inches above the cannon for them to shoot. Pair that with the fact that these are new players using low velocity cannons at a distance of at least 300 meters . . . yeah the fabled single HE shell doesn’t magically fix all those problems. NOT TO MENTION I had a high velocity cannon, all my enemies were forced to fire from pretty much out in the open, and I could have shot any part of their tank and killed em.

There is no universe where camping spots like those, in tanks like those, are fair. CAS may not be a 100% necessity to kill campers like those, but it’s a 100% necessity to maintain balance with camper spots.

Edit: The chances of a new player knowing, not only that HE should be used against open tops, but that I was an open top AND THEN that new player successfully loading at HE shell, before sucessfully hitting such a tiny target are absurdly low.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@Pangolin_Fan

single HE shell doesn’t magically fix all those problems.

It does, especially from sherman.

@Pangolin_Fan

CAS may not be a 100% necessity to kill campers like those, but it’s a 100% necessity to maintain balance with camper spots.

If You need a crutch then that is just a skill issue, not my false You are bad at dealing with campers.

@Pangolin_Fan

Edit: The chances of a new player knowing, not only that HE should be used against open tops, but that I was an open top AND THEN that new player successfully loading at HE shell, before sucessfully hitting such a tiny target are absurdly low.

Woah, sounds really hard, I wonder what are the chances of new player knowing how to use SPAA or air units!