How player skill with SPAA effects the CAS problem

[Ckasaron]

@Perinvisus

@Ckasaron Third person works for tanks because of fairly limited PoV, planes don’t have that. They can see a HUGE part of the battlefield. Even tracers whom they normally don’t see unless they whizz by directly in front of the cockpit become something benefitting them and hurting the SPAAs using them.

You’re preaching to the choir on this one, man. I merely propose giving SPAAG actual aiming assists (not the console whatever, but Rangefinding-skill-based lead indicators) instead of trying to castrate CAS further by locking them to cockpit view.

[QTip_44]

@RunaDacino

I can’t think of much in ways of buffing WW2 SPAA as a PREVENTIVE measure.

To start with, give them stealth belts like many of the planes have. Removing the “I’M HERE” beacon might give them a fighting chance, so the spaa are not always targeted by the other CAS while they are shooting at the first one.

[Maldrokk]

@RunaDacino

I can’t think of much in ways of buffing WW2 SPAA as a PREVENTIVE measure

More proximity fuses for vehicles that had them

[gangsterism]

tank-only gamemode should be added, there is no reason it still doesnt exist. air RB has its own gamemode without players in SAMs interfering

gaijins resolve to milk players for money by incentivizing buying overpowered aircraft shouldnt be tolerated

[NoylDestroyer_St]

I mean…they were testing SAM launchers in a gamemode they shoved in for like 2 days
seems they have something in mind…

Regardless,wouldnt mind if they put more pressure on all of us in top tier ARB with SAM launchers AI during Operations maybe

Cause like…
Why is this shit box at 14.0 shooting at me for?

[Busheedoh]

https://forum.warthunder.com/t/list-of-previously-suggested-ideas-gameplay

Then someone should write a suggestion about this, because this idea still hasn’t been suggested to Gaijin.

EDIT:
Scratch that, I’m wrong! It has been suggested, it’s just in a different category. It seems it was done a long time ago considering it was on the legacy forum! And it has been considered at least for some time now.

picrel

[gangsterism]

where do you write a suggestion officially? im pretty sure there were threads about tank-only in the past

[Zitrone3_2]

The skill of some brain dead spaa players is a problem, the amount of time i see CS/SA5 players using AP belts or gepard shooting at 5km distance is unreal. Or Pantsir players just… standing there not doing anything while I or the enemy climbs up.

Sometimes a single atgm is enough for a s1, even though it can intercept up to 7 at a time with little to no issue.

[QTip_44]

@Ckasaron

Adding a new game mode w/o CAS would allow a player who is overly frustrated at CAS to just ignore the problems with how CAS works, but said mode does nothing to actually correct those issues. If anything it would likely worsen them.

They will never correct those issues. There will be too much outrage if CAS can’t destroy tanks at will.

As I’ve posted before, one way to start is to give spaa stealth belts. We know they exist because planes use them. Why not for spaa?

Barring some drastic changes to how CAS interacts with ground (I just don’t see it happening) the Ground Only mode should be added. How hard can that be? The “ground” part is already there. Just remove the air part.

[Beeschurger]

@Ckasaron

“Tank-Only Players” would effectively cease to exist, which is a net benefit for a game that markets itself on its combined arms aspects. If the game gives you all possible tools and you choose not to use some of them, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get blasted by something best-countered by one of the tools you haven’t learned to use.

While I might agree on the aircraft aviability similiar to naval, “tank-only” is also matter of preference, not matter of someone utilizing tool.

And its completly legitimate preference.

Im not die-hard tank-only mode fan, but I absolutely understand why there are some people that would want to focus on tank to tank gameplay without having to use vehicle classes (be it SPAA or CAS or CAP) that do not interest them slightly.

[Beeschurger]

@Ckasaron

“prefer just tanks”

thats still a legitimate preference, just like gun only top tier (as much as i like to glaze it, i can understand why people would want to play that).

@Ckasaron

The point is to (as a part of a broader overhaul for CAS in general) make dying to CAS entirely the fault of the would-be whiner.

I agree.

@Ckasaron

they could help themselves with if they would only get over their “preferences.”

Im not entirely sure that I vibe with such thought process.

You want to essentially “force” them to get over their preferences and see it as legitimate want, fair enough.

But, hypothetically, suppose situation was reversed - how would you feel if someone tried to force you over your preferences, whatever they might be?

@Ckasaron

and there are several other games already catering to this, with some even pretty explicitly stating they were made “to not have to deal with horrendous grinds to reach modern weaponry and not to deal with being killed by aircraft from miles away” which is on Gunner, HEAT, PC’s main webpage. It was literally made by current and ex-WT players who got sick of CAS and grind.

Again, Im not entirely sure I vibe with such thought process.

“Just play another game bro” - sure, but my progress wouldnt carry over, id have to convince lot of my friends to switch over too (and THEIR progress wouldnt carry over), the choices would be much more limited (AFAIK Gunner, HEAT, PC offers only cold war vehicles, not WW2 ones and its only US vs. Soviet Union; might be wrong about that tho), and most importantly, IIRC theres no multiplayer (again might be wrong about that), and even if there was, player pool would be much more smaller.

Sure, I can play Sprocket all day, but using the tanks in game is only entertaining so far against bots.

Again, hypothetically, suppose situation was reversed - how would you feel if you were told to “just play another game”?

@Ckasaron

The point of such a change I propose is partially punitive

Thast probably why I dont vibe with it lol.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Beeschurger

And its completly legitimate preference.

Not for Warthunder. Some people like competitive FPS shooters, but when TF2 (a very casual game) was overhauled to appeal to comp, it nearly killed the game entirely.

[Beeschurger]

@Pangolin_Fan

but when TF2 (a very casual game) was overhauled to appeal to comp, it nearly killed the game entirely.

But hypothetical TO only mode wouldnt be overhaul, it would be adding another official game mode next to already existing ones.

its been a while since ive played TF2, but IIRC you can queue for specific game mode, be it payload, capture the flag etc. Usefulness of each class (and items) varies between each mode.

[Pangolin_Fan]

TO would have the exact same effect on WT as Meet Your Match had on TF2. Matchmaking would be changed for the worse, Gajin’s response to balancing would degrade, and the community would be split.

[Beeschurger]

@Ckasaron

That cycle didn’t just happen once, it kept happening, to a multitude of different CAS weapons.

@Ckasaron

I simply realized those people are the problem, not so much the CAS they were complaining about.

I could name one or two particular examples where criticism of no aviable counter to a CAS weapon was justified. But I digress.

@Ckasaron

To my understanding GHPC is planning to add multiplayer once they get their core mechanics developed and properly fleshed out. Multiplayer being thrown in day 1 is only asking for utter chaos.

eh. will burn that bridge when we get to it.

@Ckasaron

Imagine if again and again, some of your favorite aircraft to use got irreparably butchered due to the endless whining of people who don’t even play the same game mode as you

thats more of an issue of two entirely different modes sharing balancing decisions.

I understand your angle tho, back when WoNY expansion for Division 2 released, there was period of game balance where only legitimate rifle to use, in game that was 90% PvE, was M14, and it got nerfed in PvE because PvP players complained about it being too strong.

Solution came in a form of nerf only to its PvP damage. But thats something we cannot have in Warthunder, as it is fundamentally different game.

And while I do understand your angle, I do not agree with it, at least not fully.

[Beeschurger]

@Pangolin_Fan

TO would have the exact same effect on WT as Meet Your Match had on TF2. Matchmaking would be changed for the worse, Gajin’s response to balancing would degrade, and the community would be split.

I will give you response tommorow once its not 3AM and im not running on fourth cup of coffee, as I have to look up what meet your match did.

[Pangolin_Fan]

It’s kinda hard to really express the full weight of the effects of Meet Your Match in a WT forum post. To give you an idea of how badly it effected TF2, a YouTuber called Zesty Jesus uploaded a four hour long video on it. It’s not a slow-paced video either.

Basically, VALVe tried to make updates for (essentialy) two separate games, and they also tried to make TF2 the next big ESport. When those both (expectedly) didn’t end well, instead of saaaay reverting the changes, they just said screw it and abandoned TF2 altogether.

Gajin seems to really like doing stuff like that. They refuse to revert bad updates, for some reason, and love just abandoning features that don’t work well (Heli PvE).

[gfdsa_killer]

I always see the 2 sides of a bad spaa player.

1. The spaa that wants to play as anti-tank, very common issue i see while playing ground or playing cas in the opossite team.

2. Low iq players that even having a radar cant spot planes and looking anywhere else except the target. Also while im doing the air alert thing spaa still clueless (also applies for tanks with FnF atgm and doesnt use it on choppers)

[QTip_44]

@Ckasaron

For example, high tier tanks all get drones and strike drones - how hard would it be to expand on that idea and take a page from Naval so all players regardless of their aviation preferences get both fighters and CAS with preset loadouts in their lineups by default that are free to repair? Then every user has aircraft of their own to counter enemy aircraft, guaranteed.

I agree with a lot you said in that post, but not this.

I have very little interest in using a plane in this mode. There’s already a mode dedicated to air combat.
My interest in playing this game is for tanks. So offering me a plane in order to counter other planes is just a no-go. I think you really don’t understand what some of the players are looking for.

[БЕИ]

@Zitrone3_2

The skill of some brain dead spaa players is a problem, the amount of time i see CS/SA5 players using AP belts or gepard shooting at 5km distance is unreal.

That’s wouldn’t be completely useless, at least some pilots sees bullets coming will stop doing what they are doing and resets, some helicopter will stop hovering in place so they eventually lose the lock on target. If the plane is in a dogfight and on your mate’s tail, filling the sky with leads will actually cause them to make some maneuvers which eventually allows your teammate to turn the tables. Some targets will always stay out of the range of AA’s effective range, Gepards can’t kill it at least they can do something about it by disrupting their flow