Chuckling
Eh…let’s not go that far. Cause that is a point where I can tell you, you’re completely wrong. This thing accelerates to 30 kph relatively quickly compared to the Tiger II, the 105 when focused onto the cheeks will have little issue penetrating, and its velocity makes it a lot more usable at far longer ranges. Reload speeds are around the same. Yes, the Armor isn’t amazing but when you factor in the angled plate and the distance, it can shrug a lot off.
Little issue, do you see the protection heatmap on both tanks. The Ho-Ri can’t pen the Tiger 2 even on the left turret cheek. You’d have to shoot the right turret cheek, which is a gamble of when it’d pen. You say I’m completely wrong but the issue is I’m using the stat cards and in-game info. The angled plate protects the driver and machine gunner, any shot on the turret will kill you. It has 120mm of armor and that’s pennable by the ZSU-57 at 500m.
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The muzzle velocity is 916 m/s which is nothing special. And the drag on the Type 2 APHE round is horrible. It loses velocity extremely quick when compared to other cannons, and this can be noticed by the penetration values on the stat card.
At the muzzle it has 205 mm of penetration on the Ho-Ri Prototype. To compare, the US 90 mm with M82 has 185 mm. At 1000 meters, it has 159 mm of penetration compared to M82 with 161 mm. At 2000 meters, it’s 123 vs 140 mm.
The longer the range, the worse the cannon becomes when compared to others. The protection map that @Arellum showed of the Tiger II is not wrong. At 500 meters, the Ho-Ri Prototype has to aim for little weakspots when trying to kill a Tiger II (H) frontally.
Speed graph Type 2 APHE vs PzGr 39/43 vs M82
Blue is PzGr 39/43, fired from the 88 mm KwK 43 (Tiger II).
Red is Type 2 APHE, fired from the 105 mm Experimental High-Velocity Cannon (Ho-Ri Prototype).
Green is M82, fired from the 90 mm M3 (M26).
The speeds were obtained by reverse engineering the calculator that is in the WarThunder wiki for AP rounds.
You don’t understand the concept of paper, testing, and combat.
Let me sum it up.
1 is paper this is speculative, testing->Safe trials in simulated scenarios it cannot predict what will happen.
The other is Combat in which it’s fighting every random factor.
The other person pauses, mg’s you, 'cause they aren’t sure where to hit, they hit, but don’t kill enough of your crew.
The list goes on and on and on.
You can argue as much as you want, but it’s clear a lot of people even ones I have ignored seem to have a similar sentiment that you are completely wrong. Attempting to argue with every single person will not change any of our minds and we seem to still be lifting the scale to the left in favor, while you’re up high in the sky on a scale that never moved.
So if anything, seems more like a skill issue, the lack of patience and the inability to adapt in which you use a vehicle that performs excellent at longer-range combat. Not close quarters.
You can’t make the argument that a certain tank isn’t weak because you might face off against an enemy that is wholly incompetent. You assume that the other person would be hindered by a random factor which would enable you to kill them, it’s not a fair argument to say Ho-Ri wouldn’t get one shot by a tank with a measly 120mm pen from the front just because they arbitrarily don’t know where to shoot.
If you pitted two tankers of equal skill and put one in the Ho-Ri and the other in any heavy tank or heavy TD, the Ho-Ri would lose every single matchup. The Ho-Ri is abysmal at longer ranges, as @FlipAllTheTables astutely pointed out with his speed graph and penetration comparisons of a 105 versus the 90mm of a US tank.
That’s a lot nicer than most people would say
Lol, how about you just delete on your own device 😂
I didn’t mention this previously, but the Ho-Ri Prototype’s cannon also has really poor dispersion.
0.07 degrees maximum horizontal dispersion, and 0.09 degrees maximum vertical dispersion. At 300 meters, your round can just go half a meter over or under where you’re shooting, and this obviously is worse at longer ranges. For comparison, the long 88 and US 90 mm have maximum dispersions of 0.027 degrees both horizontal and vertical.
So again, the longer the range, the worse the cannon gets by comparison.
TL;DR Ho-Ri Prototype should be moved down to 6.3, as its more comparable to vehicles at that BR
Long version:
While these arguments are valid, there cannot really be a case made for the Ho-Ri Production sitting equal to the Jagdtiger or Ferdinand due to mobility, as their hp/ton is not majorly different (hori has 10, JTiger has 8.5 and Ferdinand has 9.2 hp/ton) and the Jagdpanther sits too low anyways, it belongs at 6.3. All 3 of these vehicles have better firepower, with higher penetrating and higher velocity cannons, with sufficient explosive filler to kill most things in one shot. The tradeoff for some 10% additional mobility is a massive loss in armor, as the Ho-Ri Prototype has 120mm/150mm/250mm across its upper gun shield region, compared to the Ferdinand’s 200mm and Jagdtiger’s 250mm across the same region. Even the Ho-Ri Proto’s super sloped UFP has only about 150mm effective thickness, while the Ferdinand has at least 200 and Jagdtiger has 150mm thickness raw. The Ferdinand and Jagdtiger both have significantly more side, roof, and rear armor to boot, although that is slightly less relevant. Comparing to the Jagdpanther, it has similar HP/ton at 13, while having slightly less armor at about 130mm effective thickness on the UFP. This is much more similar, as both the Jagdpanther and Ho-Ri Prototype share similar armor values, as well as relatively similar mobility, and the Jagdpanther carries a larger gun and is faster at the cost of some crew and maximum armor thickness. Strictly comparing German TDs of similar BRs, the Ho-Ri looks like it should be moved down.
Looking at other casemates at similar BRs, T28(6.3) is harder to compare, since its so slow. However, it has far better frontal armor, a better gun with similar reload and post-pen but better pen, and roof .50cals, but far less mobility. So, I’d say it’s about equal, the T28 to the Proto, although the Ho-Ri is a far easier nut to crack frontally.
The British Tortoise(6.7), while being a slightly underperforming 6.7, is still a good bit better than the Ho-Ri Prototype due to having more armor (152mm all-around vs Proto’s 120 cheek/150 center/250 mantlet and 75mm LFP) and an arguably better gun with far better pen but worse post-pen. If its kind of bad at 6.7, one only needs to imagine how the Ho-Ri Proto, also at 6.7, does with worse firepower and armor.
The Soviet/Russian SU-122-54 at 6.7 is strictly speaking, a Ho-Ri Prototype but good. It has comparable armor (100mm sloped to roughly 150mm effectiveness give or take), better mobility at 12.8 hp/ton, higher forward top speed, slightly longer reload on its gun but better APCBC as well as access to APDS and HEAT, and not to be overlooked two secondary 14.5mm machine guns, one coaxially mounted and one roof mounted.
The conclusion is that the Ho-Ri Prototype compares more similarly to similar vehicles that are at 6.3, while significantly worse than many of its peers at 6.7, which is why I believe it should be moved down to 6.3.
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Exactly the points that necessitate such a move for the Ho-Ri (Although put more eloquently than my own proposal). The Ho-Ri was initially at 6.0 yet was arbitrarily move up to 6.7.
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Petit baby carrots for garnish?
onions for breakfast
Ferdinand and Jagdtiger have practically better mobility than Ho-Ri prototype thanks to their neutral steering. When a Ho-Ri is at full stop, it is extremely clumsy and slow to turn it around. In addition Ferdi has an amazing reverse speed.
Thanks to no turret and very poor mobility, most usually with Ho-Ri proto you can only hope the enemy shoots at your 250mm thick parts. Those 150, 120 and 75mm front parts can hardly even be called weakspots due to their size. Together they are about 3 times the size of T-44 turret front. Is there even anything less mobile than Ho-Ri, other than T28/95 and Maus? Actually I’d prefer Maus due to neutral steering.
With 40 rounds or less you SHOULD be safe from getting one shot by most under 100mm guns, but lately I have been one shot by Soviet 85mm and US 90mm through front superstructure while having just 20 rounds. I don’t know if their fragmentation was increased or Ho-Ri’s ammo has weaker health than before.