Ho-Ri Prototype and Production

[SaekoB]

He’s not wrong, Germany players are literally blind and deaf 80% of my games, you can sneak on to them and push them around and they still will not react or notice that you are the enemy, that goes up to at least rank 6, then you get the general players who play most trees and the thing change a bit, but in the 2.0 - 8.0 BR spectrum, Germany is played in large numbers by either the dumbest AI in existence, or players who would be better of playing single player games.

But if you are arguing the M48, then explain to me why Pz.IV F2 / G sits at 3.3, Pz. IV J sits at 3.7 while the Chi-To & Chi-To Late sit at 4.7, Chi-Nu II sits at 4.3? And why does the Chi-Nu sit at 3.3? You can’t make sense of that. Germany is being cuddled by Gaijin, clearly evident, or if the German tanks sit right, Japan is to harshly balanced. If we compare those Japanese tanks to the German ones, the proper BRs would be;

• Chi-To & Chi-To Late - 3.7

• Chi-Nu II - 4.0

• Chi-Nu - 2.7/3.0

[CoffeeBean100]

@ulcusrodens76

And I’m pretty sure most people does the same.

I find they do not and, even if they have, skipping the spading or many vehicles within a tree does not show experience with whichever vehicle and battles they might face.

Mains do exist, rushers to top tier exist, balanced players exist, collectors exist, spaders exist. Much larger numbers of players queue in two particular modes regarding two specific nations and it does effect the game/outcomes from what I have seen over the years.

[Miragen]

He’s not wrong, Germany players are literally blind and deaf 80% of my games

You mean every player on every nation, but you won’t acknowledge that when you treat pretend every German player is a ‘German Main’ and pay specific attention to their actions, it’s called confirmation bias.
There are very few players who only play one nation, that same German player was an American player the day before and a Russia player last week, it’s stupid narrative endlessly regurgitated by the subreddit that is dominated by US players.

but muh history channel, muh wittman, muh tigor players.

You can’t make sense of that

It doesn’t make sense, so you’re just going to fill in the blanks yourself, is that how that works?

Well I don’t understand this and it doesn’t make sense to me, so I am going to come up with something entirely unfounded and pretend that’s factual.

How long have you been around, minor nations been getting the short end of the stick for years, US, Russia and Germany always been getting favorable treatment in comparison simply because Gaijin balances the entire game on statistics despite being not competent enough to understand the statistics.

[O_HOgameplay]

Interesting how you did not address his points. Wounder why…

[Miragen]

What is there to address exactly?

[GuardOfTheSquare]

Both of you stop and focus on the actual point of this post being Japan.

[Miragen]

Yes, the thread is really flying by

[O_HOgameplay]

@SaekoB

• Chi-To & Chi-To Late - 3.7
• Chi-Nu II - 4.0
• Chi-Nu - 2.7/3.0

Well, the Chi-To could be 3.7, but the Late version should be at 4.0.
Chi-Nu II? I am honestly not sure. Armor is trash, and it isn’t very mobile, so 3.7, but the gun is just way too good for that.
I put the Chi-To Late at 4.0, since it has a frontal plate that resists US 75mm (if i am correct), but the Chi-Nu II has even worse armor that the early Chi-To.

For the Chi-Nu?
I recently played with the Chi-He, and it is fine at 2.7, and the Chi-Nu is beter than that, so i would say 3.0 for that.

[Sombralix]

Yes let’s create huge BR gaps in Japanese tank tree instead of fixing Japanese tanks

Like I said before. Fix their guns. The AP calculator needs a revamp cuz it’s wrong and the results do not match any source whatsoever.

Type 1 47mm
Type 1 AP (1.5kg at 810m/s)
86mm @ 0m at 0 °
38mm @ 0m at 60 °

Type 3 75mm
Tokku Kou AP (6.615kg at 683m/s)
118mm @ 0m at 0 °
53mm @ 0m at 60 °

Type 5 75mm
Tokku Kou AP (6.615kg at 850m/s)
161mm @ 0m at 0 °
70mm @ 0m at 60 °

Also the 50% chance of bounce at 60 degrees for AP(BC) shells should not be at 60 degrees but at 75 degrees.

Panzer IV’s themselves need BR adjustments but I guess Gertards undertiered them.

Panzer IV F.2 - 3.7
APCBC (740m/s)
135mm @ 0m at 0 °
53mm @ 0m at 60 °

Panzer IV G - 4.0
APCBC (740m/s)
135mm @ 0m at 0 °
53mm @ 0m at 60 °

Panzer IV J - 4.0
APCBC (770m/s)
143mm @ 0m at 0 °
55mm @ 0m at 60 °

Panzer IV H - 4.3
143mm @ 0m at 0 °
55mm @ 0m at 60 °

Chance of bounce for APC(BC) should not be 50% at 63 degrees but at 75 degrees.

Now…
If Panzer IV H with 55mm at 60 ° is 4.3BR worthy
Then Chi-To with 70mm at 60 ° is 5.0BR especially due to the better mobility and turret armour.

So instead of downtiering Chi-To to 4.0 and creating huge BR gap between it and STA’s, fixed one would be 5.0 and Chi-Ri would be extremely formidable even at 5.3.

[O_HOgameplay]

@Sombralix

Then Chi-To with 70mm at 60 ° is 5.0BR especially due to the better mobility and turret armour.

So instead of downtiering Chi-To to 4.0 and creating huge BR gap between it and STA’s, fixed one would be 5.0 and Chi-Ri would be extremely formidable even at 5.3.

Ahm, what?!
They are the textbook definition of glass cannon.

@Sombralix

Then Chi-To with 70mm at 60 ° is 5.0BR especially due to the better mobility and turret armour.

What kind of alternative universe do you live in? That’s 75mm almost flat plate.
The Panzer IV has addon tracks, and it is a lot of times a volumetric hell.
It also has no ammo in the turret, so it is less likely to be blown up by a shell penning the turret.

@Sombralix

Chi-Ri would be extremely formidable even at 5.3.

Ahm, what?!
It is a huge, slow box with no armor.
Like the Chi-To late at least could bounce the US 75mm with it’s front, but this tank literally has worse armor than a Panzer IV.

When will people finally realize that penetration is NOT EVERYTHING.
What will be the next? Arguing that the Ikv 103 should be at 8.7 because it has a 400mm pen HEAT-FS?
Or that the Sturer Emil should be moved up to like 7.7, because it effectively has the Maus’ gun?
Also don’t forget to put the Conqueror to 10.7, since it has better flat pen than DM33!

All they have is penetration.
On the other hand, their mobility is bad, they are huge, have no armor, ammo is everywhere. And then just look at their competition!
Around 5.0 there is the Protopanther, which is better is almost everything, there are the US 76mm Shermans with a good gun, mobility, armor, AND STAB.
The soviets have a T-34-85, that is again, just plain better, even at sniping.
Oh, sniping, you have the french long 75mm Sherman, and the british with 17pdr.

[O_HOgameplay]

Also, they use a calculator because it is convenient.
There are guns that have no, or very little avalible info on, or it is just unreliable.

I don’t say it is the best option, but this is what we have.

[Sombralix]

Yes and their calculator should be adjusted

[Sombralix]

Sherman’s like M4A2 (76) are glass cannons too with inferior gun

Anyways with fixed Type 5 75mm after AP calculator fix
You’ll be able to penetrate Panther upper plate at close range (T-34-85 can’t) and Proto Panther upper plate is going to be child’s play. Also you do realise that 161mm pen will lol clap Panther turret front. Panther side hull armour is only 40mm thick which means a fixed Chi-To gun will be able to penetrate it from the front even when the striking angle is 70 degrees. If that Panther doesn’t face its hull directly towards the Chi-To, you can just slap its side hull no problem.
Now imagine Chi-Ri with fixed autoloader unloading such firepower with only 2.0-2.5 sec delay per shot

After shells get their fixed 60 degree penetration and the chance of bounce gets fixed, the T-34-85 will be a glass cannon with cramped internal space

Type 5 75mm
Tokku Kou AP (6.615kg at 850m/s)
161mm @ 0m at 0°
70mm @ 0m at 60°
59mm @ 0m at 65°
45mm @ 0m at 70°

Panther side hull is 40mm thick

T-34-85 upper plate is 45mm at 60°, you need to add extra 47° horizontal angle to make it compound angle of 70°

Basically a fixed Chi-Nu II, Chi-To, Chi-Ri is going to be a 3rd person point and click adventure against T-34-85’s. Good luck trying to get same results with panzer IV gun. That’s simply just how much better the Chi-To gun should be compared to panzer iv’s 75mm.

Basically unless your T-34-85 upper plate is at this angle, the fixed Chi-To will penetrate it.

This is Panther 40mm thick side hull at 68 degrees compound angle and Chi-To can defeat 45mm at 70 degrees.

This is panthers 45mm thick turret side at 69.3 degrees compound angle. Chi-To can defeat 45mm at 70 degrees.

Tiger I shoot’s 88mm APCBC at 773m/s. It’s 10.2kg shell but if we don’t count the piercing cap and ballistic cap the penetrator is roughly 8.65kg.
It penetrates 165mm of armour

Chi-To shoots 75mm AP at 850m/s and the penetrator is 6.615kg. According to demarre the Tokku Kou has 12% more penetration (185/165)
Chi-To has 12% more penetrating power than Tiger 1.

If we use gaijins APCBC calculator and shrink and reduce the penetrator size of Tokku Kou AP and replace it with windshield and a piercing cap, the Tokku Kou with smaller penetrator still defeats 165mm of steel. But Tokku Kou is not APCBC, the entire round is the penetrator. Bigger and heavier penetrator which according to demarre gives this shell 12% more penetration power than Tiger I.

[krikrisup]

Why do I see tanksgg?

[Sombralix]

It’s useful at visually showing what the effective angles look like
(Since I’m not online right now to use the war thunder one in hangar)

Like, how does T-34-85 upper plate look like at 70 degrees compound angle

What does panthers turret side look like at 68 degrees angle of attack

[O_HOgameplay]

OH MY FUCKING GOD!

Dude does not realise that WoT just takes the raw effective thickness, without the actual ammo modifiers.
So what you are saying is, that a japanese long 75mm shell is BETTER than the soviet 122mm BR-471B.
Why do i say this?

@Sombralix

You’ll be able to penetrate Panther upper plate at close range

Because of this.
Even that shell with all it’s insane angle pen, sometimes just bounces at close range, unangled.
It happened to me in both directions. In fact a few years back i was called a “cheater”, because the guy with the IS-2 just bounced off my upper plate in a Panther like that.

@Sombralix

T-34-85 can’t

Mah mah mah maaaaah.

@Sombralix

Proto Panther upper plate is going to be child’s play

Like with most guns, especially russian APHE.

@Sombralix

Also you do realise that 161mm pen will lol clap Panther turret front

Like with pretty much every bloody gun over 4.3.

@Sombralix

If that Panther doesn’t face its hull directly towards the Chi-To, you can just slap its side hull no problem.

Again, like with every bloody gun.

@Sombralix

Now imagine Chi-Ri with fixed autoloader unloading such firepower with only 2.0-2.5 sec delay per shot

Sources please.

@Sombralix

After shells get their fixed 60 degree penetration and the chance of bounce gets fixed, the T-34-85 will be a glass cannon with cramped internal space

Yeah, because the T-34-85 is a sniper tank, and not you know, a bloody brawler king.
I have bounced more shots in my T-34-85 in full uptiers than with any japanese tanks in full downtiers.
You know why?
Because angled plates >>>>>>>> horizontal plates.
You can sidescrape with the T-34s, even at 6.0.

@Sombralix

T-34-85 upper plate is 45mm at 60°, you need to add extra 47° horizontal angle to make it compound angle of 70°

Like any gun at that BR. Again…
Still, shooting at that angle just asks for a bounce, i would not take that shot with anything less than a russian 122mm.

@Sombralix

Sherman’s like M4A2 (76) are glass cannons too with inferior gun

Please tell more!
Not like they are smaller with better turret armor, and a stab, nonono.

So then please link me your sources for the Chi-Ri autoloader, and the ammo pen.

And also, you still don’t get it, but i will attempt it once more.

You can have ALL the penetration AND DAMAGE if the platform is a piece of crap, it will not be good.

EDIT:
Hey, look, a Panzer IV APCR pens the IS-2 upper plate!

Oh, wait…

[Sombralix]

I didn’t use wot to show wether it can penetrate or not

I simply showed you visually what the effective angles mentioned looked like in practice since I’m not online to show it visually through WT

Plus all AP / APBC underperforms right now, not just Japanese 75mm AP.

Did you know the 100mm AP stock round on T-44-100 should be able to penetrate just over 100mm at 60 degrees?

Fixed 90mm T33 AP(BC) would have 81mm at 60 degrees penetration and would be clapping Panther upper plate past 1km

But first gaijin needs to fix the AP calculator

Tokku Kou AP (6.615kg at 850m/s)
161mm @ 0m at 0° #
70mm @ 0m at 60° - 140 LOS
59mm @ 0m at 65°
45mm @ 0m at 70°

#Penetration is 185mm but due to lack of piercing cap, it deforms against flat thick armour at high velocity and achieves 161mm after deforming. Also no I’m not using relative thickness like WoT. The AP rounds achieves 185mm at 0 degrees (161 after deforming) and at 60 degrees when it doesn’t deform it defeats 140mm LOS. So 185 LOS at 0 degrees and 140 LOS at 60 degrees after denormalisation. Slope modifier I used is in wwii ballistics armour and gunnery

[O_HOgameplay]

Still no sources for Chi-Ri autoloader reload, nor long 75mm pen table…

[Sombralix]

The Tokku Kou AP shot from Chi-Nu has 100mm @ 500 yards with 683m/s muzzle velocity.

That’s 118mm at point blank range (ballistic factor 3600)

Using demarre equation I used 850m/s which is the velocity that Type 5 75mm shoots it as which demarre equation puts at 161mm. That’s 161mm without piercing cap so the value is penetration after deformation as well. Deformation with Japanese quality steel. US AP rounds deform even less

[WT] Type3 Chi-Nu

[O_HOgameplay]

Because that was when they did not use the formula.
I explained why they use it, so i will not do that again.
I hope you realize that the formula does not take in the shape and quality of the shell…