These are the germans looking for their god tier armor to fall for stuff like this at top tier. Then come back to say it needs to be lower.
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Not even remotely. I hold the exact same opinion if the slow armored brick in question would be American, British, Russian, German, French, Japanese, or anybody else.
If a T95 can be frontally liquidated even in a full downtier, or have its barrel frontally shot out by anyone its looking at, what exactly is it supposed to do to adapt when it has no mobility to adapt and maps force it into short range city clusterfucks all day?
I simply look at the Tortoise, Ferdinand/Elefant, Black Prince, and all the other “rolling bunkers” identically. Sure Germany has more vehicles of that type due to being on the defensive much of WW2, but they’re hardly the only ones in question.
If something throws away all its practical mobility and maneuverability for the sake of not being frontally penned, then why on earth would anyone proceed to tier it where most common opponents can still frontally pen it even in a full downtier AND defend the built-in cheat of barrel damage to the death? What’s even the point of its “armor” then?
Crippled can happen to ANY vehicle at ANY BR.
Your response makes no sense, and has zero explanation for the suggestion of lowering a vehicle with (200mm armor) + (gun that can pen 168mm at 30 degrees) down to 5.7 - where the Jumbo 75 and T1E1 90 sit. Or the IS1.
For rank 4 vehicles, Kills per death, Ferdinand is 3rd among TT vehicles. (Should be 2nd as I’m not sure why Statshark considers the Tiger 2 10.5 cm a TT vehicle…)
I don’t see any evidence the Ferdinand is struggling.
Isn’t it still on tech tree if you have it? My R2Y2s all stayed there.
They were created as a cheap means for defensive posture. Easy to produce and reliable in positions. Pushing with these even against infantry was a guarantee death sentence.
Technically yes - but - it’s premium. So we peasants can’t grind for it.
So Ferdi is 3rd on TT and 2nd as a freebie grinder.
My explanation of ALL the various “rolling bunker” heavy tanks is as follows:
If it was intentionally designed around sacrificing all its possible mobility for the sake of not being frontally penned, then it should be tiered where only a select few highly specialized opponents with their own heavy tradeoffs are the sole ones able to frontally pen. Everyone else should be forced to side-shoot it without exception - otherwise what’s the point of its armor in the first place if it only slightly delays the inevitable?
For the Ferdinand/Elefant specifically, I said 5.7 because both are not just slow, but exceptionally so. Placing both there ensures the only things that can frontally deck them are themselves frail derp cannons with their own heavy penalties to play around. Not only are they slow, but they have possibly the worst maneuverability of a tank or TD I have ever seen barring the Maus. Then god forbid when you finally encounter an opponent which can’t pen your armor, and they shoot out your barrel tip, rendering your armor irrelevant as you sit there helplessly repairing the damn thing.
I proposed all those BRs with the expectation of barrels being made totally immune to all damage. If you cannot frontally pen something, the game should not give you any handouts. Maps being rat mazes mean flanking them is not terribly difficult if you are patient to let them overextend. And there’s always CAS if they’re hunkered down in one of the increasingly few spots left on maps that can control large fractions of the map.
I look beyond the player statistics to how the thing is forced to actually play. For example, I got so fed up with being LOLpenned or barreled that I decided to slowly lumber in mine on flank routes despite the low speed. And surprisingly I got quite a few hilarious games from people not expecting me where they found me. Thus stats “look good” but you’re effectively working against the entire point of the thing.
Infantry with AT rifles, bazookas/panzerfausts/RPGs, or even simple grenades were a death sentence to any tank, but yes the slower and more unmaneuverable a tank is the more fucked it was when infantry got to it.
Just know if it were up to me as someone who owns all of the removed things for Germany I would vouch for reinstating the KT105 and all the others in their tree positions in a heartbeat. I don’t like the removal of machines any more than you do.
Woah, I wonder what You think about air units that can just destroy any target no matter the armor when using proper bombs/rockets.
Irrelevant.
Many vehicles are map or even uptiered/downtired dependent.
Play the vehicle that matches the situation.
If vehicle is not appropriate - leave it in the garage.
No one forces players to use the Ferdinand in a specific map/battle battle.
This we can agree on.
It’s quite relevant when the vast majority of maps don’t even allow engaging at long enough ranges where your armor actually works and your barrel can’t be intentionally shot out.
My experience in it is already playing the thing solely in downtiers.
Like I said, I already play the thing only in downtiers when the map is appropriate as-is. And even then it STILL is rendered near-irrelevant with the continued erosion of long-range spots people actually can be hit from, mass-downvoting of long ranged maps, cluttering of formerly good locations with junk/bushes/small trees, etc. Even in those optimal situations, it STILL gets mauled by barrel damage, LOLpen rounds, and of course a seasoning of CAS.
And when nearly every single map is incompatible with the thing, then what?
This is precisely why I do not trust player statistics much - raw K/D or K/B or %WR do not take into account “on what map,” “was he uptiered or downtiered?”, or countless other variables.
The ho ri production being 7.3 is not an issue. I believe its fine where its at.
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The only BR suggestion you came up with that’s actually realistic is T95 to 6.7. Literally everything else are straight up ridiculous. Maus to 7.0? The hell are you going to do in your puny 6.0s that can barely sidepen it? Ho-Ri Production to 6.7? It is already braindead at 7.3 and you want to go even lower? There’s a reason those vehicles are at those BRs, it’'s because they deserved it.
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Its not premium. Its normal TT vehicle. They just moved it to side where premium/event vehicles are.
So what are this topic talking about, still someone believe Ho-RI prototype is worth 6.7?
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Only the german mains
Oh Jesus, German suffer unable to use PZGR to pen a TD with only 120- 150 mm turret armor, and their mobility is worse than a TD with weight about 51t but only has a 550 hp engine.
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Wait - what ???
Why the heck would they do that???
I could have been researching it already???
Back then KT 105 was TT, as its removed now,its still not premium,but its just aside in the tree,just like Maus or event vehicles that arent premiums.
oh… so not available AT ALL…
Interesting … could have sworn either the Maus or E100 were not displayed on that section of tree in WIKI, but I see them both now.
Simple - undo the nerfing of APCR from years past. If that round actually works like its supposed to most 6.0s would not struggle much.
Yes it has 225mm frontal armor. But all too frequently nobody cares about the armor when they shoot either the protruding engine vents or just your cannon barrel. And that’s IF they don’t have HEATFS already.
“Armor” doesn’t matter if the opponent isn’t forced to shoot said armor or not shoot. Admittedly the Production has a total fantasy 1100hp engine so it is able to move almost like a medium tank. But at that point why even bother using it instead of any other turreted medium if you’re forced to play it as if its armor doesn’t exist due to everyone barreling you, ignoring your armor with HEATFS, or bombing you?
Some may have. Others are entirely due to the utter stupidity of the opponents.
So the Black Prince, a rolling brick, going down to 5.7 like people have suggested for the thing for years is somehow absurd when a 152mm flat plate plus large armor gaps if you try angling plus a modest cupola aren’t already fairly easy enough to punch through? Even though it has literally no mobility to fall back upon when its armor can’t save itself?
Or the Jagdtiger falling given its already poor mobility with the prior 700hp engine was made much worse with the “arbitrary realism” governor nerf to 600hp is somehow also absurd? Sure it can work, but the level of comical stupidity in opponents required to make it work is arguably more crazy. Hence why I suggested as low as 6.0 for it.
The IS-4M is the Maus’s natural opponent - it’s somewhat more mobile but has a 5.7-grade main gun. How often do you even see one of these doing well these days?
The IS-3 is something most people seem to agree is suffering at its current BR. Same gun as above but worse armor layout that everything either pens carelessly or overpressures to no end. Hence my suggestion of 6.7. That plus the T-44/85 would finally give the Soviets a real 6.7 deck that’s competent and help curb constant uptiers for everyone else, as the Russians are one of the most-played nations.
The Tortoise is something even more pathetic. The gun is a worse long 88 due to being solid shot, though its still decent. But the giant double-machine gun cupola allows most people to ignore the armor entirely, as does the other MG port. Oh sure the gun has a surprisingly good horizonal arc for an SPG, but it crawls around slower than a Churchill. Hence why I suggested 5.7 for it - it’s all-around terrible and people don’t use the thing much for good reason.
I simply want the slow rolling pillboxes to actually be able to stop shells frontally from penning in the first place, and have no barrel damage cheats for people to bypass them with either. Otherwise what’s even the point of such vehicles if they throw away all their mobility for armor only for said armor to still not save them?