Helicopter's max BR needs to be increased

[AlvisWisla]

When hovering and at tree level, both systems have an 8km range against moving targets.
When at speed and a bit of altitude Vikhrs can go 10km against static targets, which doesn’t matter since SPAA range is 12km

Only F&F missile platforms have a chance when SPAA is up.
There’s a reason helicopters are never seen at top BR, and when they are seen it’s usually a SPIKE/PARS slinger.

Vikhrs were changed to be that range back around 2019 and they perform that way as of current.
On top of having a warhead that can’t pen Abrams or Leopards unless it climbs high into SPAA threat, let alone APS having tanks.

Cause unlike other missiles, Vikhr doesn’t loft so it’s always LOS. And AGM-114 has a similar issue after lofting that’s mitigated by the laser.

Also helicopters were decompressed years ago.
A Ka-52/Apache equivalent aircraft: A-6E TRAM sits at 10.7 ground.
Of course aircraft are forced to fly forward, so these 12.0 BRs while arguably over-BR’d are still “fine”, cause when SPAA isn’t up Apache devastates entire teams, and Ka-52 does damage as well.

The last time I saw a non-F&F helicopter was sometime fall of last year and it was destroyed instantly by a Flarakrad.

Edit: Not even 3 search terms I find a match post-FlaRakRad addition.

- YouTube

[jspene]

Russia has the best helicopters which is why they lack FnF capability and the Lynx is 10.7.

Anyway I agree that helicopters are pretty poorly balanced in general and they need a rework. Especially with regard to their economy/methods of playing.

[HondaCivici]

@AlvisWisla

Apache and Ka-52 literally have the same 8km range.

If I say my Honda Civic is equal to a Ferrari because it has the same range (for the sake of argument), do you know how ignorant that sounds?

Please think about this analogy

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@AlvisWisla

systems cause I play them to this day and keep tabs on changes.

then you would know that you can ripple fire with beam riding agms. It’s not like Hellfires where you can fire all of em at once. you can fire three within a span of 2 seconds.

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@AlvisWisla

When hovering and at tree level, both systems have an 8km range against moving targets.

misleading. hellfire are extremely inaccurate against tanks that don’t follow a straight line (unlike bots)

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@AlvisWisla

When at speed and a bit of altitude Vikhrs can go 10km against static targets, which doesn’t matter since SPAA range is 12km

Then you are playing helicopters wrong. In GRB (not PVE), the point of helicopters (that require LOS) is to ambush spaa then move onto tanks. Or hide from spaa and only go for tanks. Not go toe to toe with one. Helicopters with Vikhrs are the best at this because they are fast, thus

reduces the time for spaa to react.

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@AlvisWisla

On top of having a warhead that can’t pen Abrams or Leopards, let alone APS having tanks unless it climbs high into SPAA threat.

Last time I checked, helicopters aren’t at ground level shooting at tanks.

Again we’ve had this conversation before. at a slight increase in elevation, you ignore the strongest parts of a tank.

[rainy2000]

@AlvisWisla

When hovering and at tree level, both systems have an 8km range against moving targets.
When at speed and a bit of altitude Vikhrs can go 10km against static targets, which doesn’t matter since SPAA range is 12km

Vikhirs at tree level can hit stationary targets at around 9km, and possibly moving targets at around 8km.

Hellfires, on the other hand, can just about hit stationary targets at around 8km, but you can clearly see how they struggle to even stay flying.

I have no doubts that the Vikhirs can hit moving targets at 8km, but with the number of matches I have played with hellfire helicopters, you’d want to stay at around 4-6km at least, to get them to hit.

@AlvisWisla

Only F&F missile platforms have a chance when SPAA is up.

This is completely not true, and is demonstrated countless times by experienced Kamov players:

@AlvisWisla

There’s a reason helicopters are never seen at top BR, and when they are seen it’s usually a SPIKE/PARS slinger.

Kamovs have high skill ceiling, and somewhat low skill floor.
Of course you barely see them, unlike with the low skill ceiling and low skill floor of the F&F helicopters.

@AlvisWisla

On top of having a warhead that can’t pen Abrams or Leopards unless it climbs high into SPAA threat, let alone APS having tanks.

APS can be easily overwhelmed by spamming 3 or 6 at a time. You can guide multiple as long as it’s within a 3s time frame from the first launch… this is basic knowledge to anyone who knows how to play Kamov.

Vikhirs have 6.87kg worth of TNT, which is enough to overpressure the turret-ring area of a 2A7V…

And overpressure the roof…

And even without that, you cannot tell me that just because you have to aim a bit better to kill an MBT automatically makes Vikhirs inferior to other AGMs.

@AlvisWisla

Vikhr doesn’t loft so it’s always LOS

It not lofting offers many benefits, like getting to the target quicker (along with it being a faster missile in general), and being able to guide them into smoke (which you cannot do with laser-guided AGMs nor F&Fs).

@AlvisWisla

Also helicopters were decompressed years ago.

And they still need further decompression.
The Ka-50 and Z-19E being the same BR makes sense (at least to me), but they shouldn’t be the same BR as the YAH-64.

@AlvisWisla

Apache devastates entire teams

Sure… until they start smoking up.
Not to mention that the Apaches are worse at dealing with air targets than most top tier Helicopters, other than the Tiger UHT.

And the youtube video that you posted was that of the British Apache, which is much more useful than the American / Israeli / Japanese ones due to the starstreaks, which is potent against SPAA, helis (most of the time), and sometimes even jets.

[AlvisWisla]

@HondaCivici

is to ambush spaa then move onto tanks.

Nice 1.5km range imagery. Cause helicopters are always 1.5km away when they fire missiles… /s

I get you and @rainy2000 want to defend the Ka-52 and push propaganda for Kamov, but it’s not the best helicopter in-game and never really was. It was tied due to weak SPAA in the past. Ka-52 hasn’t been a top 5 helicopter since 2022, before the addition of SPIKEs and fixing the physics of SACLOS missiles.

British Apaches use the same ATGMs as every other Apache.

And no, I didn’t ignore anything in your posts. All the evidence you provided is evidence I provided in the past and all of it proves my points.

Ka-52 will never be more than a 12.0 helicopter. It’s good, it’s just not OP. If you want OP go talk about F-16C, Su-34, etc. Helicopters aren’t it, not even the most powerful of them: Rooivalk for non-F&F and Blackhawk/Tiger for F&F; they’re not OP either.
Well in a vacuum Rooivalk is OP for not being the same BR as Ka-52 and max Apaches, but the game isn’t in a vacuum and where SPAA currently is Rooivalk is “fine”.

[rainy2000]

@AlvisWisla

I get you and @rainy2000 want to defend the Ka-52 and push propaganda for Kamov, but it’s not the best helicopter and never really was. It was tied due to weak SPAA. Ka-52 hasn’t been a top 5 helicopter since 2022, before the addition of SPIKEs and fixing the physics of SACLOS missiles.

We literally do not care about how they performed in real-life or what nation they were created by.
We are talking about how they perform in-game.

@AlvisWisla

Ka-52 hasn’t been a top 5 helicopter since 2022, before the addition of SPIKEs and fixing the physics of SACLOS missiles.

No?
No competitive player has ever said that (and for good reasons), and I would love to see you duel them with your apache.

@AlvisWisla

British Apaches use the same ATGMs as every other Apache.

You completely are ignoring the fact that what makes the British Apache much better than the other Apaches is because of its starstreaks.

@AlvisWisla

And no, I didn’t ignore anything in your posts. All the evidence you provided is evidence I provided in the past and all of it proves my points.

Sure you did.

[AlvisWisla]

@rainy2000
War Thunder isn’t real life. I implore you retract that detail in your post about WT and real life being the same, especially since you agree with me that they aren’t the same in the following sentence.

Heli PVP isn’t a game mode anymore, there is no heli dueling.

Starstreaks were great in heli PVP, it’s still not a game mode.

Your posts’ takes are all of 2022 War Thunder… play the game, get new information.

[rainy2000]

@AlvisWisla

War Thunder isn’t real life. I implore you retract that dumb claim where you call WT real life.

You misunderstood what I was saying.

We aren’t conflating the two.

We are talking about how this vehicle (called the KA-50 / KA-52) performs in this videogame.

We are not saying that the KA-50 / KA-52 in-game performs the way they should in real-life, so there is no ‘propaganda’ to spread.

@AlvisWisla

Heli PVP isn’t a game mode anymore, there is no heli dueling.

You do realise SRB exists?

@AlvisWisla

Starstreaks were great in heli PVP, it’s still not a game mode.

I assume you do not know that SRB exists.

@AlvisWisla

I’m convinced you haven’t played the game since 2022 since all your takes are of 2022 WT.

I am convinced that you have built your own echo chamber.

[AlvisWisla]

@rainy2000

@rainy2000

We aren’t conflating the two.
We are talking about how this vehicle (called the KA-50 / KA-52) perform in this videogame.
We are not saying that the KA-50 / KA-52 in-game performs the way they should in real-life.

Then I’m glad we agree.

SRB isn’t heli dueling either.
Also the fact your post calls the WT community an “echo chamber” is enough for me to not take your posts seriously.

The point stands that helicopters are no where near as powerful as even AV-8B let alone the top F&F aircraft.
Especially not Apache/Ka-52/Mi-28NM/Z-10, not even Rooivalk despite it being the best of the non-F&F helicopters.

If you disagree about those vehicles, fine. It’s okay to disagree, it’s not okay to demean others.

[HondaCivici]

At this point, I have no idea what you’re arguing about 🤣. Of all the things I’ve said, you decided to talk about my 1 min drawing?

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@AlvisWisla

defend the Ka-52 and push propaganda for Kamov

Do you honestly think vehicles in war thunder are accurate to their real life counter parts?

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@AlvisWisla

I provided in the past and all of it proves my points

which are…

@rainy2000 did a pretty good job on countering the points you’ve said.

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@AlvisWisla

Your posts’ takes are all of 2022 War Thunder… play the game, get new information.

That is rich coming from you.

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@AlvisWisla

Also the fact your post calls the WT community an “echo chamber”

please point to me where the community is saying the KA52 is fine at 12.0

[AlvisWisla]

Most of your post is minor details that I don’t think we should be arguing over.
Or perspective that’s mostly personal, which we shouldn’t be arguing over.
It does not matter if we think Mi-28NM or Apache is better than the other, cause all of the non-F&F helicopters are worse than the F&F helicopters, and the F&F helicopters are worse than the fixed-wing CAS.

My entire point is the helicopters are fine at their BRs currently.
IF SPAA BRs change, helicopters should change with them, that is my primary statement about helicopters.

Also you are the first ever person to claim Z-10, Rooivalk, Ka-52, Mi-28NM, etc are more powerful than 12.0 BR.

All the takes of Ka-52 being OP where when it was 11.3.

[rainy2000]

@AlvisWisla

SRB isn’t heli dueling either.

You haven’t played top tier SRB then.

@AlvisWisla

Also the fact your post calls the WT community an “echo chamber”

I am saying that you have made your own echo chamber, not the community.
I have had many cooperative and useful conversations with people - namely with @MotorolaCRO.
This is distinctly a problem that you seem to have, and what seems to be the case with other people that try to have a meaningful and good-faith discussions on different topics with you.
You seem to never be able to admit when you are wrong on a certain topic (especially by discrediting and making it seem like someone is spreading ‘propaganda’), and makes it harder for others to accept when they are wrong as well.

[AlvisWisla]

@rainy2000
Well, when you decide to play top SRB, I recommend it; especially for SPAA grinding, cause it’s the easiest mode to play SPAA in.

Also I listen to the entirety of the WT community, keep tabs on takes. Thousands, ten-thousands.

Also I’ve admitted to having wrong information hundreds of times in the last year; just cause you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
When there’s a change I change, as one should.
When Su-27SM changed, I changed.
When Vikhr became fully fixed in early 2023, I stopped calling it OP cause it no longer was.
When Apache’s AGM-114s started tracking helicopters correctly in late 2019, my position on them changed [that’s where all my AH-64A Peten air kills came from, fragging Ka-50s in heli PVP using AGM-114s].
When F-15E was nerfed hard, I changed again.
Hundreds of changes in the last year for hundreds of aspects of War Thunder.

Non-F&F helicopters are not OP at this time. They may have been in the past, and were in many instances; currently all but Israel and Japan have on-the-ground counters to them.

[rainy2000]

All those changes, and yet your takes, especially about helicopters, seem so wrong.
Maybe it’s just the difference between competitive matches and casual matches, but the reason why all top helicopter players during 8v8s play KA-52, AH.MK1 or (sometimes) Z-10 is simply because they’re just superior to everything else in most aspects.
Why would they pick those if they could just pick the ‘better’ F&Fs helicopters?
Either you are talking about casual play, or you don’t believe the top helicopter players are playing the right vehicles.

[Zyranovos]

That’s, not gonna change anything…

Max BR in ground is 12.0, putting them in higher BR’s, that such of air mode like 13.0 and 13.7 would do, absolutely nothing to the matchmaker.

[rainy2000]

Max BR in GRB is 12.7, but it is true that ground vehicles only go up to 12.0.

I think there needs to be further decompression for ground vehicles, and possible 13.7 for GRB (to decompress the aircraft you can take out, as well as the helicopters.

[AlvisWisla]

The last time I died to a helicopter was 2023, I was in my Abrams and it took 3 - 5 missiles to kill me cause all it could see was my front armor.
In-fact, here’s where I was on the map:

The last time I almost died to a helicopter was a SPIKE hitting my Challenger 2 in 2024 and taking out a crew member. A retreat stopped them from getting another one off.

I’d love for @HondaCivici 's statements to be anywhere near correct, but they aren’t.
Fixed-wing CAS is so far ahead of helicopters in power compared to helicopters, and all top SPAA is vastly superior to the helicopters as well.
The only real SPAA that I’d consider on-par with Apache, Mi-28NM, and so on would be 2S6.

[rainy2000]

But you’re not answering my question:

@rainy2000

Maybe it’s just the difference between competitive matches and casual matches, but the reason why all top helicopter players during 8v8s play KA-52, AH.MK1 or (sometimes) Z-10 is simply because they’re just superior to everything else in most aspects.
Why would they pick those if they could just pick the ‘better’ F&Fs helicopters?

[Zyranovos]

Yes decompression is needed.

[HondaCivici]

By minor details, do you mean the points I made in response to yours? So unless your saying that the things you’ve said is minor, I don’t know what to say.

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@AlvisWisla

It does not matter if we think Mi-28NM or Apache is better than the other, cause all of the non-F&F helicopters are worse than the F&F helicopters, and the F&F helicopters are worse than the fixed-wing CAS.

It is significantly cheaper to bring in a heli than to bring in a fully kitted aircraft. If they were the same sp, then I can understand where you’re coming from. But if all it takes me is a kill and assist to spawn in a fully kitted ka52 which can cause havoc, I don’t see how that is not op.