Heli/APC Infantry Insertion

[Do you think this feature sounds fun and would be excited to see it in-game?]
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters
[Do you think this feature is reasonable for Gaijin to code and release?]
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters
[Do you think War Thunder immersion feels weird having no infantry?]
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters
[Do you have an issue with any of the mentioned features?]
  • Yes
  • Yes and I am going to list below what they are.
  • No
0 voters
[Do you think this should only be a separate mode?]
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

Hey there, hear me out, what if helicopters(of the right configuration) and apc’s could carry infantry squads into battle. They could insert these squads on to the field and then the infantry could be controlled rts style similar to men of war/company of heroes. Via a hotkey toggle you could swap between your vehicle and the rts control mode. In the rts control mode, you could order your squad to capture/defend an objective, attack a vehicle, drag each other to safety or to enter scout mode to automatically spot enemy vehicles and infantry. Infantry can not capture a point with an active enemy tank presence under any circumstances. The vehicle could act as a resupply point for the squad and as a revive point to carry wounded soldiers to. Once those wounded soldiers were returned to a spot on the map or for helicopters, the airfield, the soldier would “revive.” To give these orders you could drag over the solders with left click and drag to select and depending on your selection, the squad could be split in to different fire teams. So if you have 6 soldiers lets say, and you drag over 3, a new “squad” called a fireteam is created of 3 soldiers and the other 3 soldiers are now in a different fireteam. Each fireteam will posses unique abilities tied to the soldiers in that selection, ensuring the abilities such as laying mines, anti-tank launchers, anti-air, medic, radio operator etc, are all linked to a specific soldier in the squad. The infantry could be customized by picking between pre-determined squad configurations accessible in the modifications screen. This could range from AT squads to AA squads(for the more modern vehicles) and even maybe engineers for mine laying. Infantry with kits like AT should not be able to destroy tanks with ease, these launchers should mostly hit for minor damage unless very well placed. Once the vehicle is defeated, the squad will still be active and useable, but will be unable to resupply. Infantry should be able to stand, crouch and go prone. Finally, anti air infantry should have a shorter range than anti air vehicles.

As for the vehicle, it should possess a limited resupply point, as mentioned above, with perhaps lets say, 5 full resupplies for your infantry and the ability to act as a respawn point for troops dragged to it’s location and then ferried by that vehicle to the spawn location. These resupplies can be resupplied(lol) at the spawn point. The vehicle should NOT have the ability to be given orders in the rts control screen. I do not think people want war thunder to become matches of entirely rts gameplay. The goal here is to maintain the feeling that you are playing the vehicle, but to allow you to ferry troops to the battlefield with transport oriented vehicles. As such, your soldiers should have a degree of automation to them when outside of the rts control screen and controlling the vehicle. Meaning for example, you drop your troops off and give them orders, then you select the stance aggressive, defensive or passive button once the orders are given. These soldiers will execute the order given and then enter an automated state depending on the selected option above where they will either engage hostile targets, only defend against hostile targets that engage them, or remain passively still, not reacting to anything. This allows the player to set orders, select a stance and then play as their vehicle supporting their squad. The infantry will enter a fully automated state, only acting out their last given orders when the player vehicle is killed. All targets seen by your infantry, should be seen by the player in the vehicle if you are in a modern vehicle via a radio operator(if one is present in your squad). The infantry should be modeled inside these vehicles as well and penetration should kill members of the squads inside the vehicles, resulting in them remaining in a downed state until a respawn point is visited and they can be revived.

It is important this feature does not feel unfair to people playing traditional war thunder vehicles. All infantry soldiers should be incapable of surviving anything more than a single 7.62 round to the legs/arms. I think it would be most interesting if the infantry could be modeled in a way where their vitals and limbs are treated similarly to a vehicle, in that they can become disabled and unable to fire by having both arms knocked out. Each soldier should have limited ammo, in both small arms and special weaponry. Now here the real kicker and the hardest feature to develop for sure. Infantry should be able to garrison some or all buildings on the map. You heard that right. This would add massive verticality to the maps in war thunder and provide an entirely new feel to every single map and location. APC’s loaded with heat rounds would serve an entirely new purpose. The possibilities are endless. This could be done by selecting soldiers and right clicking a garrison-able building. When a building is destroyed, all infantry remaining in the building should be killed, and not revivable.

This feature alone could add an entire new dynamic to the battlefield and war thunder in general and I believe would be such a marketing success you would see a massive uptick in player base, as many rts fans would flock to the title. This said I am aware this is a MAJOR undertaking and certainly a big move in general, though I believe some of the code from enlisted’s ai may help with coding giving these troops orders. Also, the code for adding carriers in the future will benefit from this, or if it has been developed already, can be used to implement it. I can not stress enough that I believe this would be an extremely successful feature and it would be worth your investment gaijin. This could provide so many extra layers to gameplay in ground battles and the code could likely be applied to air battles as well. This, coupled with a marketing push, is something that could be such a commercial success that I have no doubt the player base would increase from the update. The game has developed many issues at the higher BR’s specifically and I believe this could alleviate some of those issues. For example, SPAA is extremely powerful and the same can be said for air vehicles themselves in ground battles. This can act as an equalizer in this regard, considering the AA squad and the AT squad, as well as the ability to scout. This also provides a solution to the stalemates that can sometimes arise in ground battles as the movement of the infantry, being more concealed, and inevitably reaching their objective more often, will force movement and interaction by armor to occur on the battlefield. This also adds a major new element to helicopter gameplay, which is a welcome change due to the short nature of a helicopter pilots life in a ground battle and it will possibly lessen helicopter pilots only floating high with atgms.

The final point I would like to make is that war thunder feels strange sometimes. The game revolves around vehicular combat, and I think it should remain that way, but the lack of infantry on the field just FEELS weird. These battles would have infantry in them. Our tanks have machineguns on them, we have access to HE rounds and we have helicopters in game which general work to support infantry more so than fighting armor, though of course they do so. The lack of infantry has always been a strange thing. I have spoken with many players and they seem to agree this feature would be incredible. I know it is a lot of hard work and a big leap, but I would like you to strongly consider this option. We have hope for so many things, submarines, more comprehensive EC and tons of balance changes, but sometimes a feature like this can solve balance problems in a unique way and it will scratch the itch for new mechanics that nearly everyone in war thunder is feeling. Overall, it should be clear I want infantry to die very easily to tanks and not be something that is unfun. This entire feature allows us to play vehicles that support infantry as their primary role and opens the doors for lots of new war machines to play with. That is the main goal of the feature, not to turn the game in to infantry simulator. I expect lobbies to not have an all infantry meta, as they will be incapable of standing up against armor alone.

So lets go over a list of features tied to this mechanic(not in order lol).

  • A hotkey toggle you could swap between your vehicle and the rts control mode

  • Order infantry to capture/defend an objective, attack a vehicle, drag each other to safety or to enter scout mode to automatically spot enemy vehicles

  • The vehicle could act as a resupply point for the squad and as a revive point to carry wounded soldiers to

  • The squad could be split in to different fire teams. So if you have 6 soldiers lets say, and you drag over 3, a new “squad” called a fireteam is created of 3 soldiers and the other 3 soldiers are now in a different fireteam

  • Laying mines, anti-tank launchers, anti-air, medic, radio operator etc, are all linked to a specific soldier in the squad. The infantry could be customized by picking between pre-determined squad configurations accessible in the modifications screen.

  • Infantry should be able to stand, crouch and go prone. Finally, anti air infantry should have a shorter range than anti air vehicles.

  • The vehicle should NOT have the ability to be given orders in the rts control screen. I do not think people want war thunder to become matches of entirely rts gameplay. The goal here is to maintain the feeling that you are playing the vehicle

  • It is important this feature does not feel unfair to people playing traditional war thunder vehicles

  • All targets seen by your infantry, should be seen by the player in the vehicle if you are in a modern vehicle via a radio operator(if one is present in your squad)

  • Infantry can become disabled and unable to fire by having both arms knocked out.

  • The infantry should be modeled inside these vehicles as well and penetration should kill members of the squads inside the vehicles

  • Each soldier should have limited ammo, in both small arms and special weaponry

  • Infantry should be able to garrison some or all buildings on the map

  • When a building is destroyed, all infantry remaining in the building should be killed, and not revivable.

  • Infantry can not capture a point with an active enemy tank presence under any circumstances

In regards to you, my fellow players, consider this feature, write about it below and let us all know what you think. I hope it sounds as cool to you all as it sounds to me and we can keep our fingers crossed, sometime in the years to come, this will happen. Discuss!

**This could allow for implementation of many new vehicles like Chinook helicopters and American and German halftracks and potentially even the Douglas C-47 and have your squad of paratroopers jump onto the field.
*I’ve added a new question, whether or not you think it should be a new mode, as some I know want RB mode to be untouched, many not even wanting aircraft to exist in the first place.
(Post has transferred from old forum, old polls was chronologically as follows- #1 7/3, #2 7/3, #3 7/3, #4 2/1/7, #5 2/5 )

7 Likes

Absolutely no.

Gaijin has proven themselves incapable or unwilling to properly balance the “combined arms” aspect of this game as it is.

Your proposal is well thought out, but sent to less than competent game devs.

11 Likes

This is what I feel like Enlisted will turn into at some point

10 Likes

Just add a game mode and combine War Thunder and Enlisted.

6 Likes

+1 though this is better implemented in Arcade (due to the RTS aspect), This would be fun, and allows for more vehicles to be added, you can have WW2 jeeps and half tracks deploy infantry or tow AT weapons (like the sturmtiger game mode), could work with top tier as well, maybe even allow you to customize the deployable crew (some basic or AT maybe even AA foot troops), all in all I like this suggestion!

1 Like

Just reposting the feedback from the old forum fro prosterity!

Spoiler

While I do think WT has the potential to do some kind of RTS thing (particularly, if Carriers ever make it into Naval, gotta snag some of the old WoWs player base!), I don’t know if infantry is the right angle to do things in. I do agree that at the current state, APCs and IFVs are just vehicles with glorified spaced armor that makes it a slight nuisance to kill, infantry might just affect the game performance more (especially if they have detailed vitals) and clutter the battlefield with more things you need to look out for when people just want to fight with armored vehicles. Plus, the gameplay loop suggested feels a bit overly detailed for something that is only applied to a small percentile of a given tech tree.

If infantry is to be implemented at all, I’d push for a simplified controls of you just controlling when they embark or disembark your vehicle (must come to a full stop, takes a couple of seconds). From there, the infantry will take position around your vehicle as a mechanized infantry unit, using their pathfinding to avoid obstacles and hostiles (like using your vehicle as mobile shield if possible). They will obviously primarily focus on taking out other infantry they see and a couple of them might have light anti-tank capabilities that can disable components and not outright destroy tanks. Their vitality is simple and will pretty much die to any MG fire and HE rounds would devastate them. Should your squad be wiped, you can restock them at a friendly cap but it will some time.

TL;DR: The gameplay loop is a little too extensive for WT, which has always been focused on vehicle combat and is too niche for a minority of vehicles present.

Additional note, RTS aspect might be a bit too time-consuming for the rapid escalation of ground combat matches. You can spend a good minute driving around, the next minute maneuvering your fire teams, and a second later a shell knocks you out. Unlike typical RTS, you aren’t a disembodied immortal perspective.

2 Likes

the issues is less the devs more the execs, which the main root have been promoted to customer

Despite most people being what I will call, “afraid of change.” I think it’s clear that there is about a 50% interest in infantry of some kind in the game. As a separate mode I truly think it could add some awesome gameplay to helis and apcs. I just still have this sneaking suspicion that even those voting no would likely enjoy it if it released. I truly believe the fear of change is the primary motivator, especially when I see the LACK of arguments against it and simply a voter number. There aren’t many logical reasons it would break the game or be unfun, just gut fears.

2 Likes

This is the quintessential example of feature creep in a video game. If you want to play Men of War, Company of Heroes or Enlisted, then go play Men of War, Company of Heroes or Enlisted. Infantry, like helicopters and submarines, cannot be properly balanced in a game like this.

They have essentially zero survivability, short AA range, pitiful AT damage and presumably are pretty slow. On the flip side they have effectively unlimited ammo, revives, auto scouting, mines (another awful idea), autonomy, can garrison any building and can still be controlled after the player dies. So they’re simultaneously useless in PvP but also provide game-breaking area denial; AKA they can’t kill much but they can instantly and continually disable anybody who drives unaware into a certain radius, leaving them sitting ducks for player vehicles.

Every urban map is now completely unplayable for tanks; Realistic but not fun. Basically at any time you could be blasted from multiple point blank directions by AT weapons you never knew were there. Of course hidden tanks are annoying to be killed by, but at least they’re very large and very loud - Infantry are nigh invisible in comparison. Not only are you constantly watching out for enemy tanks that might have an angle on you through a small gap in buildings, but now every single window, roof and pile of rubble might have a few tandem top-attack missiles waiting for you. Cap points will no doubt have entire infantry divisions sat on and around them.

Rural maps aren’t any better. A single fireteam hiding in a bush in the middle of a field could keep half the enemy team permanently scouted for you, allowing you to permanently scout them for your whole team. Every treeline is now concealing an ATGM firing squad and God help you if there’s an IFV accompanying them. The handful of roads and ridges offering cover in the vast open fields are now covered in mines. This is all assuming of course that the carrier and it’s infantry don’t get obliterated from across the map before reaching the drop point, rendering the entire mechanic pointless. Why do people keep looking at tanks/APCs getting slaughtered in these exact scenarios IRL right now and thinking “Wow, it sure would be fun to play the vehicle there!”.

No doubt there’d be new players attracted by this, but all you’d do is create another massive fracture within the playerbase between “traditional” players and RTS players. You say SPAA and CAS are already extremely powerful, so how are the the AA and AT squads supposed to act as an “equalizer”? How are infantry supposed to break stalemates? Sure they’re stealthy, but they’re also incredibly slow and vulnerable. Either the match would end before they ever got near a cap or they’d die half way to it. How will this be a “a welcome change due to the short nature of a helicopter pilots life” when transports will still be flying low and slow into the middle of the battlefield in front of a dozen active tanks, thus dying immediately with no meaningful contribution? How will it lessen the number of helis “only floating high with atgms” when that’s still an infinitely more viable strategy for killing tanks than suicidal infantry drops?

As stated even if the infantry weapons struggle to outright kill tanks, they can still disable them and thus be a gargantuan annoyance throughout every match that cannot be ignored. Forcing players to spend entire games hunting down infantry before they can do anything else is absolutely unfair to “traditional vehicle players”. Having infantry die easily to player vehicles just means the RTS player won’t have any fun either, as they watch the squad they’ve so carefully nurtured the whole game get wiped out by a single HE shell. Meanwhile if you make it a separate mode you’ll just attract everyone who only wants to play the RTS to it so matches definitely will consist entirely of RTS gameplay. Then there’s the herd of elephants in the room you’ve ignored: How is Gaijin of all companies supposed to successfully code all this (They can’t just drag & drop Enlisted code and have it all work perfectly), and how does any of it work within War Thunder’s economy/grind?

Look I like RTS games and combined arms gameplay, I’ve got thousands of hours across games like Battlefield, ARMA, CoH, MOWAS, Total War, etc, and I do like the sound of some of your ideas, but War Thunder is a Vehicular PvP game and it should always stay that way. We don’t need every single military game to gradually morph into the exact same thing; It’s fine for some to cater to a specific niche and that’s what War Thunder does. What you’ve got is a list of interesting ideas for Enlisted, or just an entirely new game, but they won’t work in WT without being unfun for one or both sides.

2 Likes

I fundamentally disagree that this is an example of feature creep. I specifically made it clear that infantry would not function in my version of implementation as you are describing, or better said that it would not be accessible on the scale you are suggesting. Obviously they can’t just drag and drop enlisted’s code, I am educated enough of software development to know better than that, but a lot of the basic things could be cut pasted and modified for WT. Like an npc player controller for the infantry, etc.

I yet again feel that fear has blinded you to what I was actually asking for. I made it clear you would still be primarily playing as a vehicle, you would not be OP, extremely limited ability to kill vehicles, mostly would act as a point capture utility. Vehicles would have a major advantage against the infantry I am calling for. They would have very limited ammunition, be extremely slow and be vulnerable in basically every way to every vehicle in the game. You say things like “every treeline would have infantry” and this is just not at all how I imagine this feature. A lot of the things you said regarding them being too weak already apply to helicopters and half the IFV’s anyway. All this would do is add something for them to actually do tbh.

To answer your conclusion, again, I made it very clear WT should always stay a vehicular combat game. The truth is, with proper implementation, this feature would not be nearly as noticeable in the overall gameplay loop of the game as you are saying, which you could argue makes it mostly novelty, but I would argue that each vehicles unique quirks and features are mostly exactly that, novelty, and they make the game what it is. The recurring trend I noticed in your post is that you are assuming they would have waaay more potential ammo than what I am suggesting. With limited ammo the infantry truly do not pose this massive area denial threat you are claiming they would. Some yes, by design, but not anything unbearable.

Truthfully despite reading and considering your entire post I still think they sound like a wonderful addition to the game. I am not convinced by any arguments yet that it would be game breaking in a limited implementation capacity like I have described. Also to be clear, everything I have drawn out would be subject to balance changes, to say it can’t be balanced is just not true at all. Even if you just got 1 squad with EXTREMELY limited ammo and ability, I would still love it.

2 Likes

it is weird. some form of infantry present on the battlefield would be great

3 Likes

It should be infantry Squads. Not individual troops. And then obviously the various types of Infantry, and there are many.
I would also include motorized as well as mechanized.
There are so many types of those as well.
this would open up a slew of uses for vehicles and what they were meant for.
Imagine the Churchill flamethower … as an example

3 Likes

I think the A.I should just do their own thing when once exit your vehicle. It would be much easier to code since the asset is already in the game. They actually appear on the test map for some US planes. When you shoot near them the move around and take cover. They crouch, go prone, and react to your shots.

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I agree with everything except for controlling the infantry, having them enter buildings, and certain parts of the soldiers being disabled. It’s a lot for them to code into the game. I like the idea, but the RTS thing is too much for most players. They want ooga booga point and click game. They could add destructible buildings but ONLY around the capture points, that way people can’t exploit them by having tanks just randomly taking damage and getting spotted from random parts of the map. I’m all for it though. There’s already too many APCs, IFVs, Utility helis, and transport helis in the game for it not to be a feature. I’ve been wanting to drop troops on an objective ever since the Mi-24 was added to the game. People often forget that all these vehicles exist to support infantry.

4 Likes

If the infantry goes out to do their own thing, what kind of gameplay feature can they contribute?

I mean they would still move to capture the closest objectives; they would just do it on their own as opposed to you telling them to do so. You would at least control when they enter and exit the vehicle and where they’re dropped off. It would give transport units (APCs/IFVs/helis) another way to contribute to the match besides just being soft targets. They could even draw attention from enemy players while your teammates move in to assist you or friendly infantry. There are quite a few ways they could contribute to the gameplay.

Infantry should be AI that attempts to capture the closest point and attempt to fight off any enemy that is within line of sight via ( RPG, BAZOOKA etc. and assault rifles and hand grenades.)

1 Like

Ah, I see. I thought you just mean you let them loose and they don’t really do anything other than populate the map haha.

Heliborne game has a similar function, you basically insert ground infantry (riflemen, AT, AA or mortars) with helicopters to cap zones. They secure the zone, take cover, and protect the zone.
It would give IFV’s and transport helicopter their true purpose.
But to break your and my own bubble , it will never happen ! The age rating for War Thunder is 12, that why all the pilots and tankers ‘go unconscious’ Imho it should be raised to 16 years so we would not have cringe stuff like this happen.

1 Like

WT would lose its 12+ rating if it has Infantry in it. That would cost them a significant chunk of the playerbase (like my 11yr old). I think that changes some countries’ rules about free to play games, they require verified ID, CC etc. IE; Gaijin isn’t going to do it.
Infantry in an AFV centric game like WT is underwhelming. Just ask Steel Beasts players.

On the one I do like the idea you are proposing and I would like to see APC’s ingame

On the other hand I don’t think it would work mostly due to how WT is fundamentally designed and it is a better fit for Enlisted anyways. APC’s can still be added but they need to have a different approach when implementing them

1 Like