Ok, so are you giving it DM33? Do you realize it only has DM13 APDS?
All it takes is one HE round to be fair.
You can’t say the same for the BMPT.
Tell me you’ve never played the conqueror without saying you’ve never played the conqueror. The gun depression is very bad and you have a massive pimple that the T26E5 can shoot to just bypass armor entirely. Jumbo Pershings still have APHE and as such have the cheesey spots like cupolas.
make helicopters more expensive to spawn so you can’t spawn them as the first vehicle of a game
I have actually played the Conqueror. In fact, I’ve been performing in it better than you have:
Maybe you want me to teach you the way of the Conqueror? Or maybe @UniqueScorpions-live ?
The gun depression isn’t great, yes, but it can still be usable depending on the hill. You can also often find cover that hides your LFP that isn’t necessarily a hill.
The T26E5 can’t reliably penetrate the cupola. Not only that, its muzzle velocity (853m/s) is poor enough for it to be a difficult shot at range. You have a stabilized gun that shoots 1,493m/s APDS round with a rangefinder, where you can shoot anywhere on the T26E5 to penetrate it.
Again, not with the Jumbo’s APHE. It barely has enough penetration at close range, let alone hitting it perfectly.
Yeah? and now try to find him, shoot his tiny tiny mg shield. While he is shooting you and hides behind cover the second he shoots.
I mean, sure, it may be difficult to find him after looking around the horizon, but the breech and gun shield are already pretty big targets to shoot at if you’d ask me.
It’s not like the AGS’s.
Are you fighting him at less then 500 meter? If yes then sure they are pretty large with good optics. If No then try finding the 4 pixels that are the shield and gun
I mean hey, good on him for getting into a position where he is far away enough and in ideal cover to kill you from long range. That’s a pretty impressive feat.
A lot of maps usually accomodate both long-range and short-range engagements, but the latter is almost always the case.
He just needs a hill and he is basically imortall.
And you just need to be in the city and he is basically useless.
Besides, not all hills allow for long-range engagements, let alone those that can get you a good number of kills.
Also, it’s not the AGS where it has great gun depression, reload, and reverse speed to support that kind of playstyle. The suspension controls help, but it can only really help it go from a measly -5 degrees to something like -7, and this only works for tilting the vehicle forward and backwards, meaning that if you so happen to get shot by HE, you cannot move sideways to get out of the way unless you reverse backwards and then to the left / right… but the reverse speed is only -12km/h.
No, they should be able to deter CAS so that a single AD-4 can’t just rack up 10 kills for free. They shouldn’t be the primary counter, nor should they be stronger than CAS. We really don’t need 1980s radar SPAA and SAMs fighting 1940s and 50s planes.
No, that’s just silly.
If not even 1 out of 16 players is able to get enough SP for CAP by the time someone spawns CAS, then that’s just a really crappy team. Even then, a Gepard can easily force MCLOS CAS to stay out of effective range, reducing hit chance or increasing risk.
We are not talking about top tier. We are talking about ~8.0-9.0.
That is not the case from what I’ve seen.
Your analogy is flawed as it assume things are balanced and stable as they currently are right now, before the “government” made a change.
Why? First spawn rocket rushers are already pathetically useless as is.
Sure, and that’s what these 8.3 - 8.7s are already doing against CAS at 8.0 - 9.0. Do you want Scimitars to get 4 easy kills against even lesser foes, like ZSU-23-4s?
If those 1980s radar SPAAs and SAMs are truly that bad in War Thunder, and the 1940s and 50s planes are that good in War Thunder, what’s the problem with that? Not everything made in the 1980s do well in the context of War Thunder. It’s why you see vehicles like the Pbv 301 (that was put into service in the 1960s) fighting along side 1940s vehicles like the Panzer III J1. Or how about the Tiger II H (also a 1940s vehicle) being the same BR as the Ratel 20, which came out in the late 1970s.
Needless to say, vehicles should be played alongside each other if their performance in-game allows it.
No, it’s reasonable. Nobody should be able to go into a CAS aircraft regardless of whether or not they are fully uptiered just to kill anything they want, especially under the presence of fully downtiered SPAAs.
That would just be a stupid game balance decision.
If you truly want CAP to be the main deterrent for CAS, then at least make it so that ground players have free access to appropriate CAP like with the free SPAAs. But the problem with that is that ground players would have even less experience with aircraft than with free SPAAs, since flying aircraft is an entirely different skill than playing SPAA, which is similar to playing ground vehicles in general.
Again, the problem is not that they don’t get enough SP for CAP, it’s that most ground players won’t have good enough CAP to deal with CAS players. You’re effectively expecting most ground players to have fully grinded their respective nations’ air tree instead of bothering with SPAA, which was not part of the ground realistic / simulator deal.
Sure, but good CAS players won’t have an issue with them.
And yet you’re still asking for these SPAAs to be moved up to higher BRs where their impact on CAS aircraft is even more insignificant.
Let’s see how you deter a Su-22M3 (which is at 9.7) in a Gepard or XM246 at 9.3.
Sure, but the effect is still the same.
Maybe you haven’t seen enough, because I’ve personally seen it happen, and I have been part of that problem myself.
Sure, it’s not perfect, but it still conveys my message. You can’t expect ground players to suddenly start grinding for CAP when you effectively make SPAA unreliable.
That would be a poor balancing decision, and nobody would play SPAA besides for those who strictly use it for anti-tank duties.
0 kills and 0 assists for what…? To only somewhat deter enemy CAS?
At least at top tier, Pantsirs and other SAMs intercept munitions and get a reward from that, if not some kills.
Agreed.
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Why bother? It’s not like the vehicle isn’t cracked anyway. It doesn’t need a buff to justify excising it.
wow you mean the guy who isn’t getting full uptiered pretty much every game is doing well consistently in the conqueror? that’s crazy
Exactly, do you want me to show you how do it?
mf I’m getting full uptiered pretty much every time I play 7.7 and it’s fucking tilting as shit on top of the maps being actual dogshit. if every full uptier I got was on pradesh I’d probably be doing pretty well but it’s not so
I feel you. But it doesn’t have to be that way.
7.7s are rubbish, just move up. Try 9.3, which in one of the most balanced and uptier proofed br in the entire br range. Unless you are absolutely pro or a weird masochist then go ahead and main 7.7 or 8.0 lol
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I doubt scimitar would be much trouble facing ZSU-23 and M163, especially considering CAP exists, however if any vehicle in particular is overperforming, it can just be moved up. A large portion of 7.0-10.0s are weak against Gepards.
Well, they’re not. The fact you can go back-to-back games in 8.0-10.0 SPAA and not see more than two planes spawn is evidence enough they’re underpowered as they are right now.
That’s a poor argument. There’s two reasons a vehicle can be balanced facing earlier technology.
Reason 1: The vehicle is technologically behind contemporary designs. For example, Concept 3 or most of low-tier Japan.
Reason 2: It’s fulfilling a role it’s not supposed to. For example, artillery tanks and IFVs.
The Gepards and Early SAMs check neither of those boxes. They are 1980s vehicles with 1980s tech, and they’re explicitly designed to shoot down aircraft (which they do far too well right now).
Ok, so you want players to just 0DL if they get an uptier? I know this may be a bit of a hot take, but vehicles should remain atleast usable when uptiered.
I wouldn’t oppose that, but it still doesn’t solve the issue of undertiered Gepards. The Gepards could be moved up to 9.0+ right now, and it wouldn’t cause any issues.
That is not my problem. If players want to handicap themselves, they’re free to do so, they just shouldn’t complain when they’re at a disadvantage.
They had all of rank 1 to rank 5 to realize it’s a combined arms game.
Do you mean the plane that can only attack enemies within visible range (and even then, not particularly well)? If it had a targeting pod then that’d be one thing, but right now, it’s barely more threatening than a 7.0 CCRP F-84B.
If it’s actually that rare, then it’s probably just unusually high-skill players.
Planes are very common from 1.0-6.7 where SPAA is closer to balanced. Both CAS and CAP are common to see. Ground players have already grinded the air tree.
Then don’t remove the APHE.
not there in terms of progression and I’m really not enjoying 8.7 that much tbh
As in, the ZSU-23s and M163s having trouble with the Scimitar? Of course they would have trouble. Even the 35mm SPAAs have trouble dealing with it.
Again, not many people have CAP at the appropriate tier because they haven’t needed it that often in GRB because 35mm SPAA (and most SPAA in general) are already good at their job.
I can agree with this. Though you’d have to move up a lot of aircraft up, including aircraft within that 8.0-9.0 BR range.
That’s a false dichotomy though.
Yes, those two are good reasons but aren’t the only ones.
War Thunder is obviously not like real life.
MCLOS missiles are much easier to aim in this video game than what it would have been in real life, tanks have great situational awareness that is not reflective of real life, etc.
It’s why the Scimitar F Mk.1 was 0.3 higher than the Gepard (which is at 8.3), and had recently moved up to 9.0 despite being a late 1950s vehicle.
So technological age and whether a vehicle is performing its intended role clearly aren’t the only factors that determine what a vehicle should face in War Thunder. The vehicle’s actual effectiveness within the game’s mechanics matters too.
No? If they strictly want to play CAS then they’re already playing like this anyways. I know some that play BT-5 just to capture a point and J out to get into their aircraft (which they may or may not do anything in). How would that be any different for the team than just 1-death leaving? I guess one more capture point that would eventually be taken?
I somewhat agree with you here, but it really depends on your definition of ‘usable’.
I’ve been playing the Apache Mk.1 from GB for a good amount of time recently and it’s extremely potent in full downtiers and often unusable in full-uptiers because vehicles like the Pantsir SM-SV and IRIST simply kill it without any real difficulty on most maps.
However, helicopters like the Apache can usually get a couple easy kills so long as they aren’t killed by CAP and are in a map that has mountains for cover from the enemy spawn.
That kind of ‘usable’ is fair game to me since you’re forced to play carefully because you cannot deal with SPAA.
In terms of top tier aircraft, it could be in-direct fire or MITL. They can work but it’s very situational and also partially dependent on whether or not you have a good map to do it on.
Usable shouldn’t mean that they have a good chance at killing multiple enemies (high reward) with little to no risk when fully downtiered SPAA is up and running, regardless of what map they’re on or how they play it.
Well, the issue that would arise is that Germany wouldn’t have a single competent SPAA between 7.3 to 9.0. And if you extend that same logic to other 35mm SPAAs in the other nations, they too would have those gaps. The Vautour IIN(C) exists at 8.0 GRB, and gets access to 4x MCLOS AGMs and 6x 750lbs, along with good enough FM to outrun most 8.0 aircraft too.
Or how about the Saab 105G, with CCIP for both bombs and rockets at 8.7, or the MiG-15Bis ISH with CCIP for rockets at 8.3? What about the Saab-105OE with 2x MCLOS AGMs at 8.3, or the Sea Vixen at 8.7?
If you want to move up these SPAAs, then those aircraft would also have to be moved up… and then you’d need to decompress the 9.0+ BR ranges so that those vehicles won’t become obsolete (I mean, why would you choose the XM246 over the M247? Why would you choose the Scimitar over the F-5A, which gets the same CAS loadout but with a much better flight model?)…
So you’re expecting ground players to learn how to play air and grind all the way to top tier so that they can use CAP at top tier?
Yes, but the thing is that ground players can rely on SPAA to kill aircraft. They don’t need to grind for CAP unless you specifically make SPAAs obsolete.
This is a good joke. Su-22M3 is one of the best CAS vehicles at 9.7 and you believe that it has similar performance as an F-84B with CCRP?
Why don’t you test its effectiveness out in a custom with me?
That’s the thing. You don’t necessarily need to have a high skill level to use MCLOS AGMs well. They are easy enough for the average joe to learn how to use good enough after a good couple hours or so.
Sure, but that’s at a BR where planes are much easier to attain. You can’t possibly suggest that most ground players should have grinded all the way to top tier in order to have their own CAP at those BRs, can you?
So just make them into glorified IFVs… I don’t think that’s a good idea, and I don’t think many people would want it to be that way either.