Each their own opinion, you dont need to justify yourself, but players who disregard air and only go for tanks are simply bad players, but gaijin also doesnt help with it, as planes give less points to destroy than ground targets.
And not everyone even likes playing higher Brs to see IFVs, i usually stay at 1.3-3.0 sometimes 3.7-4.3
(Tho when playing with others i try to ace the rest of the tree.)
And simply IRL (especially with the german army) such tanks and guns simply were dual purpose.
yes, and discouraging such behavior should be a priority (for gaijin)
and also that they are incredibly more powerful than the aa they face (even the pantsir with the new agm outranging it).
you have lower rank afvs, but they are considered either light tanks (ab41 and alike) or spaa (amx10p, wiesel 1a4 or the swedish pvb301).
that’s for self defense, they aren’t primarily used for that, or just because there are no alternatives, like the zsu-23-4 used as an ifv in afghanistan (or another country) because it has great elevation allowing to shoot higher positions.
This is so long overdue most spaa can already deal with medium tanks and even some heavies. I see no problem with this as it would make equivalent to Bofors 40/70 gun that is found on many spaa. The only people against this, are salt about getting killed by one. +1
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I’m against it because it makes no sense from a historical point of view.
The ammunition was developed for the Luftwaffe, intended to attack tanks from the air.
It wasn’t developed for use in AA guns and therefore there wasn’t a demand for it.
Tungsten ammo was rare and the last thing that Germany wanted was to give expensive ammunition AT ammunition to crews trained to shoot down aircraft.
However Gaijin already did it for the German 30mm SPAA and the ZSU-37 also gets a full belt of APCR.
In the case of the ZSU-37, however, the round was actually developed as ammunition for a 37mm AT gun and the a firing table for the ammunition existed for the 37mm FlaK gun as well.
Just a comparison of the performance at 100m
- 64mm at 30° → German 37mm Pzgr. 40 for AT guns
- (68mm at 30°, 78mm at 0° according to US data)
- 67mm at 30°, 140mm at 0° → German 37mm APCR for aircraft guns
- 67mm at 30°, 97mm at 0° → Soviet 37mm APCR for AT guns and FlaK
At 500m the Soviet round penetrades 54mm at 30° and 78mm at 0°.
At 600m the Aircraft round penetrates 47mm at 30° and 95mm at 0°.
It’s apparent that the round developed for air to ground use has much more penetration at near vertical angles in oder to be able to penetrate the armor of even heavy tanks like KVs.
Germany didn’t have AT guns that used the Lufftwaffe ammunition there also wasn’t an airborn version of either weapon that would have justified supplying special AP ammunition.
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It’s more for balance reason I want it in the game. I understand your point of historical accuracy but it just feels bad using the 37mm German gun cause u can’t even defend urself from a medium tank. Sometimes gameplay>historical accuracy especially when it helps bring the vehicle around it up to a good standard
5 Likes
Yeah but there is no reason to “defend” yourself.
Especially since there isn’t something like defending in WT. You either can use a gun offensively or you can’t.
If you give an Ostwind APCR, players will just use to rush in to maybe flank some tanks and knock them out.
That’s not the purpose of an SPAA.
Every SPAA can kill light armored vehicles and being able to take out more armored targets usually comes at the cost of AA efficency.
Some SPAA are way more capable in destroying ground vehicles than planes but the German 37mm AA guns are not one of them.
Infact the 37mm firing APHE, at a higher RoF than other 37/40mm guns, is one of the most effective ways to destroy light armored targets.
So it’s just a trade-off between being even more effective against light armor vs. being rather in-effective against medium armor.
I never had APDS for the Falcon unlocked but happily used it with the SAP round to destroy light armored vehicles like BMPs at 7.7.
Now it’s 8.3 and people still use it like a light tank, instead of Gaijin just removing the APDS to give Britian some +7.0 SPAA.
Even when you can’t destroy tanks, you can still disable them with fast firing cannons.
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I get what u are trying to say but some spaa can already do that especially the French and Swedish 40/70mm guns they can pen some heavies from the front and most from the side are they breaking the game???
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Also when they someday add one or both vehicles with the 5 cm Flak 41 L/67 with 5 cm Pzgr. 42 2,23kg at 830m/s which will even penetrate Kw-1 tanks from the front at 130 or 180 rpm, the same but with Apcbc will happen, so i dont really see the difference.
I really wish for the 5 cm Flak, it will also enable to shoot down Pe-8 planes, if they fly beyond the reach of the 3,7cm Flaks…
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It’s not about breaking the game or not.
A vehicle is balanced around both ground and air performance.
The ZSU-57 is a bad AA but it has enough mobility and firepower to be played like a light tank at 7.0.
The Chinese version gets VT shells, so it’s 8.0 based on its AA capabilities.
The Ostwind is 3.7 (or soon 3.3) the Ostwind II is 5.3 because it has two guns, boosting RoF against air targets.
All SPAA with high penetrating AP have them because that’s just their regular armor piercing shell, just like the regular armor piercing shell for the German 37mm was the rather weak Pzgr. 18 APHE.
The Ta-Se has a very good 20mm AP shell for 1.7 while the same round at 3.0 on the So-Ki is already useless against the majority of vehicles.
The 37mm APHE is great for 1.7 but not for higher BRs. Doesn’t matter because you get better air capabilities.
If the German 37mm SPAAs would get the APCR round, their BRs would just get adjusted.
But an Ostwind with 60°/s traverse and 250 RPM would get a major BR increase based on the amount of damage it could dish out against ground targets.
The BR gap between Ostwind and Ostwind II would probably become rather low because there wouldn’t be such a big difference in the killing power against ground vehicles compared to air, as it was before.
All of that just because they got an APCR round they never used in RL.
Then I am not sure why you are so against it. I understand vehicles will be adjusted to appropriate BR’s. I can see the Ostwind going up to 4.7, the Ostwind 2 to 6.3 and Coelian going up to 7.3. I don’t see that as a problem and they technically don’t even need to give to all 37mm guns mostly just the Ostwind 2 and Coelian are the only vehicles that really need it in my opinion.
3 Likes
Two reasons:
- Historical accuracy
- Not necessary
AA are for air targets. Depending on the guns they are also against ground vehicles or even primarely against ground vehicles.
Historical accuracy < Game balance
I think game balance should take over in this situation, it feel bad not be able to defend ur self when using an AA especially when ur spawn is pushed, or dealing with enemies from even the side of medium tanks. This is not a game breaking change just bring the vehicle to status quo.
4 Likes
Like I said. It’s not needed for balance and there is no defending.
Give them APCR and everyone will just play them like IFVs, cruising around flanks, killing light tanks and then dispatching medium and heavy tanks from the side.
Basically discount Bofors Leopards.
And again, the 37mm is the superior AA platform over other guns with higher penetration, due to the increased RoF.
This gets a +1 from me. I know people are a little hesitant to give SPAA armor-piercing rounds, and understandably so, the PzGr rounds are frankly underwhelming. If they add this in a belt that consists of two or three parts HE and one part HVAP (like in the Kugelblitz), then I can see it being fairly balanced, since the slow fire rate of the Flak guns would keep it in check. All that said, the Sd.Kfz. 6/2 and Ostwind shouldn’t get it, only the Ostwind II and Flakpanzer 341. 113mm of penetration at 3.7, let alone 1.7 is frankly too busted.
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Indeed, as well as, Ostwind will be moving down to 3.3 duo to last Br changes of April. And the Ostwind could also get the Navy Pzgr. L’Spur Apcbc round.
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I vote for limiting the amount of good AP munitions a AA gun or SPAA can bring,
the apcr got removed by gaijin, but aas originally had them (and they were incredibely overpowered, since it’s the same ammo as what the ju87g has). Just like how the yak-9k have only he for its 45mm despite being able to use aphe. Same goes for the ariete/sagitario. If you want to balance the game, then you should want to remove all ap rounds from aas, and only leaving very few for self defense.
i think it’s currently 108mm since i believe it’s the hvap round fired by the ju87g.
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Thats both wrong, the 37mm Flaks never had them in game and the 45mm gun uses a different lighter rounds, its doubfull if it even got ANY Ap rounds and they just copied the Apbc shot in game. And for your 2nd Post, there existed 2 versions and Charges, with weights of 405-410g and 1150-1070m/s which is the difference of 108/110-113mm/10m
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Bro u make sounds as if they will break the game while this type of gameplay is already part of it??? I just want the ostwind 2 and Coelian to get the HVAP. It’s straight forward a good spaa should be able to deal with air threats and defend it self but for some reason u discount any ground capabilities, look at AMX-13 DCA 40 it can do both superb it can defend it self from light and medium tanks while also be able to deal with air targets does it break the game no because it got no armor and u have to aim with ur gun to get weak points. It just feels like you have had a lot bad experience with spaa flanking and killing you and that’s why you are so against it and blaming it on the vehicles rather than the player.
3 Likes