General Japanese & Thai Ground Forces Discussion HQ

[EUWA]

Yes, it has, a sort of.

According to Type 87 specification D8008, it has two NVD equipments.
Type 87 Self propelled anti-air autocannon specification D8008

Type 82 Driving NVD

Spoiler

Type 87 SPAAG has Type 82 NVD according to its specification.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020829201412im_/http://jda-clearing.jda.go.jp/kunrei/i_fd/iz1987d8008_008.gif

21 暗視装置 82式操縦用暗視装置
21 NVD Type 82 driving NVD

According to Type 82 Driving NVD specification, it is a dual-use passive/active nightvision device, which amplifies “light from a target illuminated by faint light such as starlight or by infrared radiation projected from a projector”.

受像器は，パッシブ／アクティブ兼用であり，星明りなどの微光又は投光器から投射された赤外線により照らされた目標からの光を，頭部プリズム部を通して対物光学部で集光して，光増幅部で増幅し，接眼プリズム部及び接眼光学部により可視像に変換する。
82Ž®‘€c—pˆÃŽ‹‘•’uJ2013

Night vision binocular

Spoiler

It has a pair of night vision binoculars for the commander.

27 その他 暗視双眼鏡 車長用 １式 特殊付属品
27 others night vision binoculars for commander 1 set special belongings

Although nothing is said about the details of these binoculars, there is a equipment called Type 69 night vision binoculars.
Type 69 night vision binoculars specification XQ 7004
Type 69 night vision binoculars (B) specification XQ 7004B

Type 69 is capable of converting IR light to visible light.

３．１ 受像器は目標物からの赤外線を対物鏡音部で集光して，電子管(暗視管)の光電面上に結像させ，暗視管部で可視像に変換し，接眼鏡部を通して観察する。

However, it also states that it is used along with search lights of night vision devices.

暗視装置の投光器等を併用して

So Type 69 NV binoculars are an IR imager, but are unlikely to be a thermal imager.

Meanwhile, Type 69 (B) says nothing about IR light in Section 4: Functions. It only says that it intensifies faint light such as starlight.

４．機 能
(１) 星明かりなどで照らされた目標からの微光を対物光学部で集光し，光増幅部で増幅し，接眼光学部を通して目標物を視認することができる。

However, it also says that it is used along with searchlights of night vision devices. So I think Type 69 (B) is capable of intensifying faint visible light along with IR light.

Summary
It does have an IR imager, but only for the driver.
It has night vision binoculars with unknown details for the commander. They might be Type 69 NV binoculars or (B) variant of them. These binoculars intensify IR light, and Type 69 (B) can also intensify faint light such as starlight.

However, there might be something in the missing first section of table 3.

[_Nozzy]

Really nice finds, one of the images being broken is a shame but thanks for the help anyway ig it probably doesn’t have a thermal then

[Филин]

@_Nozzy

found several secondary sources (none of them credit their sources lmao) they all say the type 87 spaag has thermal/infrared imaging capabilities but I’m pretty sure they won’t be enough, probably gonna need something more official and so far haven’t had any luck with that so any help would really be appreciated.

In fact, they are not lying, but there is a nuance. According to some sources, such as the CIA report, the Type 87 is equipped with a LLLTV camera.

Spoiler

LLLTV (Low light level television) is actually the first widely used thermal imager, but its operating principle was somewhat different from modern ones. The first photosensitive sensors of CCD matrices (the basis of any digital camera) were rather poor at capturing the far infrared range, and therefore were not suitable for a thermal imager. The peak of light emission from bodies at temperatures close to ambient temperature falls at almost inaccessible wavelengths of 8-16 microns.

Spoiler

Over time, an idea arose to “help” photosensitive sensors by multiplying light - a photomultiplier located in front of the sensitive matrix could turn one photon of light into 100…1,000,000 of the same photons, radically increasing the brightness of the image.

Spoiler

In other words, despite the fact that the first sensors in the matrix poorly perceived the IR spectrum (especially the most interesting far part of the IR spectrum), by repeatedly amplifying the image, it was possible to obtain relatively high-quality images.

Spoiler

In fact, this device is designed to work in bright light as well - the photomultiplier is designed in such a way as to amplify primarily the middle and far IR spectrum that we need, without particularly amplifying the visible range. By the way, a similar device was initially ordered for the STB-1, but it was abandoned in the serial Type 74 for economic reasons.

Further development of the device consisted of… simply turning it back to front. Thanks to the improvement of photosensitive elements, it became possible to install an electro-optical amplifier not in front of it, but behind it. We multiplied the light not before the photosensitive matrix, responsible for converting light into a digital image, but after it.

This allowed to reduce the “noise” of the image to some extent, and to radically reduce the weight and size. The difference between the new generation of thermal imagers is shown in the image. It is not difficult to notice some “graininess” in the lower image, caused by unwanted spectrum that penetrated through the filters into the photomultiplier. To avoid overexposure of the image, photons of “unnecessary” spectra had to be cut off by light filters that did not allow the unnecessary range of waves into the photomultiplier.

Spoiler

Modern thermal imaging matrices, due to the further growth of sensitivity of the elements, can actually work without photomultipliers, so high is their sensitivity in the far IR range. However, it is still present in the circuit, performing the role of regulating the brightness of the image. Well, in current matrices, photomultiplication is achieved by additional voltage on a conductive plate, regulating the “effort” necessary for a photon to be noticed - no more vacuum tubes and luminophores.

Below is a graph that demonstrates in very simple terms the balance between image clarity and brightness (contrast). It is easy to see that early models of thermal imagers (which include the LLLTV) had a hard time finding a balance - the image was often either too pale, like in European cameras, or did not preserve the smallest details, like in American cameras. In fact, you could find a balance between the two parameters by simply adjusting the power of the photomultiplier (the vast majority of designs not only allowed this, but also required it).

Spoiler

Modern matrices, by and large, are free of this problem, allowing you to combine image clarity and brightness. However, they are still far from absolutely ideal, and research into their improvement continues. Interestingly, in most countries, R&D for the creation of thermal imagers is funded by the military, not the private sector.

[Филин]

The project to install Type 91 missiles on the Type 87 chassis “similar to the Gepard” actually existed, but as far as I know, it did not get past the sketch stage. It was quickly subject to yet another round of financial cuts.

[POC_DA_DOC_GOD-psn]

あなたは日本出身で、国立公文書館にアクセスできますか?

[PercussionCap]

@yjie1028

I think the “not good” part is the post pen damage of the shell, the current APDS and HEAT-FS is just sucks

I pretty much only use the HEAT-FS. Works for me, give it a try. Also, Strv 103s are easy pickings at any range which is very satisfying.

[lmjapanese8538-live]

残念ながらいけません

[lmjapanese8538-live]

ですがデジタルアーカイブからみることができますhttps://www.digital.archives.go.jp/

[_N4MELESS]

Type 74G in MWT goes pretty hard…

[yjie1028]

Not sure what happened or maybe is just my issue, but can’t see the picture

[_N4MELESS]

They are also absolute cooking with the Type 10.
Best frontal protection at its tier > outstanding mobility > a really nice 3D model even with the additional turret baskest attached.
I always thought WT shared its models with this game but this appears to be wrong.

Zero Hour — Battle Pass January 2025 | MWT: Tank Battles

[krikrisup]

Maybe type 10 fixes next update in wt?

[Mikuzume]

Turret basket got me in shambles

[_Nozzy]

thats probably far too much nuisance for gaijin but thanks a lot and good job on the really thorough research, realistically im not expecting much of balance changes for any of the vehicles with how gaijin is operating right now, maybe the influx of fuji players might decrease the japenese win performance statistics enough to warrant some buffs/changes overall

[_N4MELESS]

Reported the Type 74G for missing commander’s thermal sight and incorrect low-resolution thermal sight.

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/sZZYJWP0Zteq

[_N4MELESS]

Love the color differences between the vehicle and armor…

[it_not_FUBAR]

If only they can put this on their heli

[JPAU401]

Sad, but they closed it pretty quick

[丨ō益ō丨]

Sad, it was closed as “not a bug”

Maybe submitting the thermal imager report by itself would at least have the devs consider giving better thermals to the Type 74G

[skultew1234]

@丨ō益ō丨

Maybe submitting the thermal imager report by itself would at least have the devs consider giving better thermals to the Type 74G

No because here isn’t any information what mean “better resolution”
In game the thermal quality is depended on generation of thermal and another screen inside tank won’t change the generation of it
So report with information “there were better resolution” is useless because doesn’t say what changed
And it is only 1 secondary source when 2 needed