Gen 2-4 jets rebalance

[Ew4n]

@warthogboy09

do it without finding images where it is creating contrails

Are you serious?
Show without showing. Prove without proving.

1. All irl info speaks of reduced smoke, not smokelessness.

2. It is much more difficult to find a video with the launch of 9M/X and almost invisible smoke. Analyzing the video, it is obvious that an almost absent trace is only present near the ground at high air temperatures. All launches from aircraft have a trace. Launches at high altitude have a fat trail, like any other missiles. In War Thunder 9m there is always an almost invisible trace from the face of the launcher, but from the outside it is simply not visible at all.
   In the video of a launch from a ground installation in a hot climate, where the trail is most invisible, it is more noticeable than in War Thunder.

[cercata]

@AlvisWisla

Su-25K/standard, AMX, and A-10 is mediocre at 10.7 as-is.

Those planes are amazing dogfighting if you know how to use them … well, the A-10 you don’t even need to know how to use it. Also the have very good guns, and all aspect misiles …

[Panter2005]

@AlvisWisla

All of the listed ones are trash.
None of them can deal with anything that an F-4C can do better and faster.

The best thing F-4C has are Bullpups, it’s a little bit better than A-4B, since it has a bigger variant of the Bullpup available.

A-10 and Su-25 have the best AGMs in the game and TV or laser guided bombs. Su-25T even has Vikhrs. A-10 can carry twice as many 2000lb bombs as F-4C can.

F-4C can bomb bases better with smaller bombs, because it’s a fighter-bomber, not just a regular fighter.

@AlvisWisla

AV-8C can’t even frag a base.

It can with Napalm.

Early harriers are in a difficult situation. Their main advantages irl were VTOL and low operational cost. They had low payload, but could operate, where no other plane could. Both of these advantages are meaningless in War Thunder.

Harriers can’t be balanced in War Thunder. They will either be slinging SRAAMs, AIM-9Gs or God forbid AIM-9Ls at subsonic and/or flareless jets, or they will be trash with their pathetic payload.

For AV-8C it doesn’t matter if it will face MiG-21S or MiG-21bis, but it will matter for the flareless MiG-21S.

Early harriers should be purely planes that you take out for fun, to do something stupid with VTOL.

@AlvisWisla

There are no OP missiles in War Thunder. I’d have to be Russian and delusional to think R-27ER is OP.

R-27ER certainly was OP before Fox 3s were added. It was nerfed, but in this proposal I want it to be realistic, which pretty much means reverting the nerf.

@AlvisWisla

We are getting F-14D cause it’s a production aircraft thus will come to the game at some point.
9Ls are also F-14B’s correct missiles.

“At some point” does not sound good. I could say that we will get F-22 and Su-57 “at some point”.

I’m actually fine with F-16A/ADF, F-15A and F-14B not receiving AIM-9Ms and staying with AIM-9Ls against MiG-29s and Su-27s with R-73s.

AIM-9L and AIM-9M are the same missile with different seekers and one has a smokeless motor. R-73s aren’t difficult to flare if you react quickly, which also isn’t difficult to do, since it isn’t smokeless. That’s why AIM-9L in my opinion would suffice.

I just thought that giving them AIM-9Ms would be more reasonable, but perhaps AIM-9M is too strong and wouldn’t make the gameplay asymmetrical enough.

Early gen 4s usually carry 4 IR missiles instead of 2, since they can’t carry anything else on these pylons anyway. That’s why U.S. planes could have only AIM-9Ls, because they can afford to lose some of them to flares.

[AlvisWisla]

@Panter2005

Prove that A-10 can go 2000kph like F-4C in order to prove that it’s as-good.
Prove that the A-10s and Su-25Ks have high-telezoom targeting pods with AGM-65Gs/whatever the missile’s called on SM3.
Vikhrs on a plane are trash outside of air modes.

Harriers are already perfectly balanced in War Thunder. They’re not OP, and have never been OP, and they’re not underpowered and have never been underpowered.

@Panter2005

it will matter for the flareless MiG-21S

Doesn’t matter, AIM-9G is a rear aspect missile.

R-27ER was never OP, it was as threatening as AIM-7F, and if you died to R-27ER you also died to AIM-7F just as much.
R-27ER wasn’t nerfed, it was correctly.

F-22 will come years after Su-57 and Typhoon Tranche 3+.

@Panter2005

I’m actually fine with F-16A/ADF, F-15A and F-14B not receiving AIM-9Ms and staying with AIM-9Ls against MiG-29s and Su-27s with R-73s.

Mig-29s with R-73s are already in-game, you don’t need to ruin the 9.12 and 9.13.
We need F-16s with 9Ls, for variety.
Just as IMO we need an F-16 Block 1/5 with 9Js.

[TheArcticFoxxo]

There is absolutely no reason for aircraft like the A-1A moving to 12.7, nor the AV-8s at 11.3

[Panter2005]

@AlvisWisla

Doesn’t matter, AIM-9G is a rear aspect missile.

You can barely outpull an AIM-9G in a MiG-21S. AIM-9G has a lot of range, long burn time and is slow at the beginning, meaning that these 18Gs isn’t a bad pull. AIM-9Ls completely outclass a MiG-21S, you can’t even merge and start a fight with a plane that has AIM-9Ls in a MiG-21S, you have to run away from him.

@AlvisWisla

Mig-29s with R-73s are already in-game, you don’t need to ruin the 9.12 and 9.13.

What do you mean ruin the MiG-29 9-12 and 9-13. They are ruined right now and I want to fix them. They don’t have their primary missile, which is R-73. They have incorrect flight models, worse than irl. They are artificially brought up to the F-16A standard by R-27ER, which they never carried.

If anything you want to ruin them by bumping up their BR when they receive their R-73s and flight models.

[AlvisWisla]

I’ve never had a 9G even launch on me in my SPS K, the only reason I brought flare pods with SPS K was for Su-25 and A-10 engagements, otherwise there’s no reason to bring flares, and the 21S has a better engine.

Mig-29 9.12 and 9.13 are balanced currently.

[Panter2005]

There is absolutely no reason they should be even remotely competitive in dogfights.

They ruin the vibe of early cold war gen 2 jets. They look out of place and have OP missiles for their BR, which don’t necessarily make them OP, but allow for kills that should never happen.

[Panter2005]

@AlvisWisla

Mig-29 9.12 and 9.13 are balanced currently.

In the worst, unhistorical, most lame way possible.

[AlvisWisla]

Real-life Mig-29s used R-60Ms, nothing unhistorical about their loadout.

[Panter2005]

MiG-29, Su-27 and R-73 were all designed together, meant to be used together in a doctrine. Stop with the cherry picking.

[warthogboy09]

@Ew4n

Are you serious?
Show without showing. Prove without proving

Contrails =/= smoke trail. They only form at altitudes where the aircraft is also leaving a contrail.

@Ew4n

but from the outside it is simply not visible at all.

This is incorrect

[hunter4574761]

@Panter2005

J-11A ------------------------ 13.7 — 13.7

J-11A should be 3.3 since it has the same radar and same RWR as J-11 and it can only guide one fox3 while others can guide at least two.

@Panter2005

• F-16C ------------------------ 13.7 — 13.7
• F-15C ------------------------ 13.7 — 13.7

These I think should go to 14.0.
If we use Su-27SM as benchmark, J-11A is inferior due to radar , RWR and avionics, F15 and F16 are superior due to their radar, RWR and Avionics.

[Phazer]

@Panter2005

• JAS39A Gripen --------- 13.0 → 13.7
• AV-8B Plus ---------------- 13.0 → 13.7

why?? you want the JAS 39A to be the same br as the 39C yet not having RB99, makes no sense,
you also want the AV-8B Plus to be the same br as the F16C F15C Su27SM etc? Also makes no sense

@Panter2005

AV-8A/C ----------- 9.7 → 11.3

i need an explination for these ones. its a subsonic attacker with 2 medicore missiles and its impossible to flare the 9L because of gaijins spaghetti code.

[Panter2005]

@hunter4574761

J-11A should be 3.3 since it has the same radar and same RWR as J-11 and it can only guide one fox3 while others can guide at least two.

13.3 is reserved for bad fighters with Fox 3s like J-8F, Tornado or F-4F ICE.

@hunter4574761

These I think should go to 14.0.
If we use Su-27SM as benchmark, J-11A is inferior due to radar , RWR and avionics, F15 and F16 are superior due to their radar, RWR and Avionics.

Su-27s and their derivatives I believe will be equal to F-15C and F-16C after flight model buffs.

@Phazer

you want the JAS 39A to be the same br as the 39C yet not having RB99

Read this V

@Panter2005

Gen 4

with exceptions

Aircraft changes:

@Phazer

i need an explination for these ones. its a subsonic attacker with 2 medicore missiles and its impossible to flare the 9L because of gaijins spaghetti code.

Exactly, it’s an attacker. Attackers shouldn’t be balanced in terms of the ability to kill other planes, but in terms of the ability to kill ground units. AV-8A/C and other early Harriers are the only ones, that are bad at both, but since they are attackers, it’s better to have them suffer a little, than to cause trouble for flareless fighters and such.

It’s also not impossible to flare the AIM-9L.

[S3b5]

I mean yeah give them the R-73 but let the MiG-29s keep the R-60s, they used them. If anything they could get a stock loadout with like all R-60s. But R-73s would move them up at least a bit, and that’s just how it is

[hunter4574761]

@Panter2005

J-8F,

J8f is bad because of its aerodynamics and only 2 fox3, J11A is bad because its avionics. One can see but not strong, the other one is strong but blind

[hunter4574761]

@Panter2005

Su-27s and their derivatives I believe will be equal to F-15C and F-16C after flight model buffs.

I don’t think they are equal. su27 and j11a have inferior radar. Better radar means one can see and launch the attack before one’soppoents, which gives a huge advantage in combat. i think J11b is equal to f15 and f16

[C0lander]

@Panter2005

MiG-29G is also 12.7 material, but I wanted to make a distinction, that it has western RWR

Does it?
F4F from the TT has better RWR.

[Panter2005]

@Panter2005

MiG-29G:

• add western RWR (I think it had one, correct me if I’m wrong)

Guys, read thoroughly. I wonder if even anyone read the R27s rework part, which I spent the most time on.