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Let me spawn SAM systems/SPAA in ARB, they need to get spaded somehow.
I don’t see a problem with a tank only game mode, just don’t replace current ground (combined arms) with said tank only, add it as a separate mode.
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It’s the sheer amount of AA now.
Especially higher BR’s where people just get Strelas (extremely strong) and Pantsirs for free without even researching a single AA vehicle, it’s a complete joke.
I planned to not use the BUK, because i want the utility of the Pantsir. Now i can use the BUK, since i get the Pantsir for free anyway lmao.
And for each of these vehicles you can use backups and since they are so cheap to spawn, a lot of people do it.
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Then don’t be mad about the changes ;)
Wow, players of a combined arms game want to play more than one vehicle type. What a crazy idea.
Basically, if SPAAG go from being target practice vs most tanks to being actually competent in flank shots, in addition to giving the non-radar ones a short-range lead indicator to make swatting planes in them about as easy as it is to use CAS currently, I could see all SPAAGs go up to Medium Tank SP costs. Light tanks also should with all the direct and indirect buffs they’ve gotten over the years, but that’s a different discussion.
Are they really? We already have many tanks and TDs pressed into roles they were not built to do, so I find singling out SPAAGs for tankbusting to be kinda ridiculous, especially when WT’s current gameplay is basically screaming at them to do exactly that if they want to be truly effective.
The game has tried neutering SPAAG tankbusting ability for years, and it has achieved exactly NOTHING. People still are not using SPAAG in the “correct” manners, and clearly never will. What we know does work is giving them some form of aim assist, because the moment Radar SPAAG become available those same players who uselessly spray & pray from too far away in WW2 tiers suddenly become fairly competent at swatting down CAS. Likewise, those Radar SPAAG become doubly more potent due to how 35mm Oerlikon APHE behaves enabling them to melt most tank sides at short to medium ranges, exactly like WT gameplay screams at SPAAG to do from the very beginning.
Give people the tools to work and actually fit the gameplay as it currently is, and most of them will in fact stop complaining.
If it is through the side or rear plating, what exactly is the issue? If a group of five people did not pay attention to either side and got deleted from back to front, that’s their own damn fault.
I fully understand if its some BS like cupola shots (purely a fault of APHE), microscopic armor holes (not making every tank use a fully volumetric armor model), server overload leading to rounds teleporting through plates (self-explanatory), rounds bouncing off of more than 3 plates and suddenly forgetting to perform armor penetration calculations leading to nonsense penetrations (odd game limitation I have no explanation for), or barrel damage (a bad mechanic in general). Neutering SPAAG to not address any of these is quite literally throwing a rug over a vomit stain.
And yet, in order to protect those same medium and heavy tanks from air attack, they need to advance alongside or just behind them, especially in pre-radar tiers. But average players have proven time and again they simply won’t unless the SPAAG can shred tank sides effectively to defend themselves and even in a limited fashion go on the offensive when the match demands.
Tying a vehicle class’s hands behind its back and then wondering why people either don’t use it or fail to use it correctly is quite…interesting…logic, to say the least.
It’s really not, at least not before long-range guided weapons arrive on the scene. Planes or helicopters with unguided ordinance get close enough that you will in most cases hear them unless they do some cheeky throttling back in a dive or the game’s sound bugs out. Bombs are well-neutered enough that successfully killing a moving non-overpressurable target is rather difficult, even with fairly big ones. Likewise for unguided rockets that actually shoot straight.
Meanwhile in flanking with a tank, you may not hear them until they’re already on top of you, if you don’t just get blown up in one hit without hearing a damn thing. Sometimes WT’s wonderfully stupid anti-cheat decides not to render someone who has a kill shot line of sight on you even when you are paying attention.
Modern tech is unfair, but you have to remember it is literally designed to be. The only counter to a plane with that kind of range is having your own fighters up and having sufficient distance between the enemy airfield and tank map that intercepts prior to ordinance launch are both possible and practical. SAMs are more a last resort weapon if air superiority fails that current WT gameplay presses into a primary role by idiotically relegating aircraft to CoD killstreak revenge powerup status. THAT is far more “CoD nonsense” than (re)buffing SPAAG into semi-competent tank-killers could ever be.
And like I said, what do you do if the technology in question is literally designed to be inherently unfair, because unfair fights end wars the quickest? The tech itself is designed to be as uncounterable as possible, and then different game mechanics restrict access to the things that could counter it (fighters with just air to air ordinance are currently locked behind SP walls “because its Ground Battles.”)
Idk when you and folk of your mindset will just give up the ghost already. If seemingly popular mode ideas like RB EC keep getting consistently shot down by the devs, why do you think TO, a mode which has been explicitly denied more times than any other game mode, stands any reasonable chance of ever seeing the light of day?
You may call my CAS reforms “little better than fanfiction,” but they’re assembled from stuff the game already has and embraces fully in different game modes. Much of the needless frustration can be addressed by simply deleting the kill camera, forcing runway spawns on all planes, moving helicopter spawn locations onto the plane runways, and deleting the separated helipads. Rebuffing SPAAG can happen in stages, but copying over Arcade’s lead markers and reducing the maximum range it renders really would be a literal copy-paste. New anti-tank rounds can come later, much as I want them now. Likewise with diversified objectives for both CAS and tanks to perform (which would also help address sardine can tank maps and spawn camping issues tankers complain about).
In theory yes it would. What reasons can you come up with as to why they haven’t, if it is supposedly so “easy”?
See, I actually agree CAS’s current implementation as a killstreak revenge powerup is complete and utter horseshit. And yet, with maps currently being campy sardine cans, something is sadly needed to dislodge people.
I have accepted that people will always complain about something, and instead of endlessly chasing who is complaining about what, the only way to “end” such stuff in any meaningful way is:
Make. Their. Complaining. Their. Own. Damn. Fault.
That is why my CAS reforms developed the way they did - give people the tools they need and/or unburden existing tools so they consistently and easily WORK, and expect the complainers to go use them. If they choose not to, it’s no longer a game problem anymore.
The only time a CAS nerf is justified is if every available tool has been sensibly rebuffed, no available alternatives can be added to fix the problem, and the functionality of the weapon/its platform so blatantly overperforms that no counter would make a difference. An example is Russian Helicopter LDIRCM being a bubble of denial for all SAMs currently - nothing will fix that except making LDIRCM work correctly, which would be a laser aimed by the player toward incoming missiles that can only be aimed at so many missiles at once.
How could I be mad? Tank bombing brings me so many positive emotions that there’s probably nothing in this game that could make me angry :D And with these changes, bombing bots that can’t even move from their spawn is even more fun :)
So it didn’t change much but even made it worse?
I hope gaijin sees it and provides more fixes/nerfs ;).
Fun fact, the Pantsir’s 30mm guns, alongside the Tunguska’s, are actually missing APDS. We haven’t yet seen their true power.
I argue vehemently against all “ground-only” game mode concepts, and actually very much support the free SPAAG being given.
(GTA meme)
I have yet to see a single TO supporter give a thorough proposal for their mode idea which addresses likely problems with said mode idea. All they ever say is “just try it, I’m right, I’ll show you!” like an angsty teenager.
In my own observation seriously thinking about such an idea, the things coming to mind that are wrong with it are as follows (in no particular order):
- Many locations on maps now become much harder to dig people out of. Which would lead to further degradation of map size (shrinking borders more) and/or quality (eliminating various interesting spots until nobody has any room to think), provided a replacement anti-camping mechanism isn’t added instead.
- An unpredictable level of playerbase split between Combined Arms and Tank Only game modes raising queue times for both modes.
- A secondary split based on which nations have competent CAS in plentiful quantity or not leading to some nations being over/under-represented in CA or TO, further complicating matchmaking and leading to a greater number of All vs All matches. All the copy-paste slop has reduced the harm of this one somewhat, but not fully eliminated it.
- This would set a very bad precedent for the dev team folding to one loud minority, thereby empowering other equally dangerous loud minorities to then campaign en masse for their respective “mode without [insert vehicle type].” While most of us can probably agree some modes like RB Air EC and splitting off Coastal Boat matchmaking from Bluewater make perfect sense, there are quite a few other less-savory mode ideas that have been floated around over the years. It’s just a massive can of worms with no end in sight unless you don’t open it in the first place.
I hope so too, the most important thing is that they don’t come up with a TO mode. :)))
You only make an issue for people enjoying combined aspect of the game, for me there is no difference if there is or isn’t a TO.
Lately I’m enjoying MB-326B and can’t wait to get my hands on K version ;)
The funny part is that the SPAAG are capable of moving, but actively choose not to. Big difference here. If you give someone the tools to help themselves and they choose not to use them or not to use them correctly, it’s on them now and not the game in general.
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Can’t wait to see examples of such places!
I don’t see it as an issue.
CAS is not used to balance tanks.
Ground units are a huge part of the game, not just a minority and by stats ground modes are played the most.
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Of course all you do is pretend the problems don’t exist, because you have no answer to them if you admitted they were in fact real concerns. Nor do I, for that matter.
An example lower tier spot would be the camping cliffs on Ash River by C cap for both teams. If someone is hull down on either spot in something with a lot of armor, you literally can’t flank them in said spots because to get there means being lit up by spawn protection.
An example higher tier map spot would be the giant hill on the southeastern part of Maginot Line overlooking C cap and part of B - to go around that demands getting close to being lit up by spawn protection.
Are there ways to bypass both examples without CAS? Yes, but doing so takes considerably more time to move around the map. Not everyone has a LOLpen gun ready to use which can accurately hit the person(s) camping in said spots before they delete your LOLpen gun.
And unlike the two of us, average players are really fucking stupid, and either may not be aware of many camping spots or not be aware of what to do about them.
Current game mode design begs to differ. I was more referring to how some nations are loaded with tons of effective CAS (America) while others don’t have nearly as many options (Sweden and Italy). One would expect nations with lots of CAS to be over-represented in the Combined Arms mode, and nations without lots of CAS to be over-represented in the Tank Only mode.
Surely even you can see how this would be an issue, right? We’ve all seen the matchmaker break when one nation at a particular BR range gets uncontrollably spammed.
The people who stubbornly refuse to use CAS out of preference or principle are the loud minority. Most tank users do in fact use aircraft and/or SPAAGs.
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I do if there is an actual problem.
Please provide examples of tanks that can’t be dealt with at their B.R. in this positions.
That is why TO would be for health of the game, people would learn it instead of just using air to fix all of their issues.
Tanks are based on what enemies they face at their B.R. not that they will meet CAS.
If what You say was a case then most vehicles would be 1.0 as even maus can be destroyed by 1.0 planes with bombs.
That could be the case if people who just want to play tanks didn’t want to play such nations, can’t see that happening really.
But they would probably choose a TO if it was here instead of forcing themself to play something they don’t want to in first place.
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Here is a simple test then. Gaijin adds a tank only game mode, and lets see how popular it is?
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I don’t have an issue with those AA’s per se, but if you just get them for free and you have constantly 3 or 4 of them on the map with backups, it starts to be an issue.
You don’t see the problems because you choose not to, simple as that. I do get it to an extent - if you have no-lifed this game enough, eventually you find situations where you are astonished that other people don’t recognize stuff that is common sense to yourself. I’ve seen it with myself at times in the past.
It’s not so much “they can’t be dealt with at all” as it is “the effort you must expend is massively disproportionate to theirs, because most of the cards are stacked in their favor.”
It could be, I’ll admit it. But adding the mode does not directly do anything to address how badly CAS is implemented, thus you’ll only find me truly supporting any form of TO after CAS’s real problems are solved.
This is true. Lineup flexibility determines much more however than just the tanks available, and CAS is a significant part of that flexibility.
Of course you can’t see it happening, because you have no answer to this problem.
I have no answer to it either, at least not in a palatable way (because it seems people are consistently against copy-pastes from other nations which could be used to fill gaps in minor nations’ CAS options).
The same can be said about other modes like Air RB - many people clearly express their dislike of it, but there’s nowhere else to go for a lot of things so they tolerate it. Snail keeps shooting down proposals for alternative game modes over threat of queue times.
They did that back in 2019 for then-top-tier. If it were so popular, it would have been repeated and expanded. Instead, after that test ended, the devs chose to double down on saying “no, it’s not gonna happen.”
That suggests that it really isn’t as popular as its supporters wish it was.
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Also go cry somewhere else for your Tank only mode, there are enough threads for it and this isn’t one of them.
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If they ever do that the entire spaa line becomes irrelevant, do you see how silly this point is? Gaijin has invested god knows how many hours of manpower into adding AA to the game so people play it and now you’re suggesting a mode with no role for AA, lmao