You only make an issue for people enjoying combined aspect of the game, for me there is no difference if there is or isn’t a TO.
Lately I’m enjoying MB-326B and can’t wait to get my hands on K version ;)
The funny part is that the SPAAG are capable of moving, but actively choose not to. Big difference here. If you give someone the tools to help themselves and they choose not to use them or not to use them correctly, it’s on them now and not the game in general.
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Can’t wait to see examples of such places!
I don’t see it as an issue.
CAS is not used to balance tanks.
Ground units are a huge part of the game, not just a minority and by stats ground modes are played the most.
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Of course all you do is pretend the problems don’t exist, because you have no answer to them if you admitted they were in fact real concerns. Nor do I, for that matter.
An example lower tier spot would be the camping cliffs on Ash River by C cap for both teams. If someone is hull down on either spot in something with a lot of armor, you literally can’t flank them in said spots because to get there means being lit up by spawn protection.
An example higher tier map spot would be the giant hill on the southeastern part of Maginot Line overlooking C cap and part of B - to go around that demands getting close to being lit up by spawn protection.
Are there ways to bypass both examples without CAS? Yes, but doing so takes considerably more time to move around the map. Not everyone has a LOLpen gun ready to use which can accurately hit the person(s) camping in said spots before they delete your LOLpen gun.
And unlike the two of us, average players are really fucking stupid, and either may not be aware of many camping spots or not be aware of what to do about them.
Current game mode design begs to differ. I was more referring to how some nations are loaded with tons of effective CAS (America) while others don’t have nearly as many options (Sweden and Italy). One would expect nations with lots of CAS to be over-represented in the Combined Arms mode, and nations without lots of CAS to be over-represented in the Tank Only mode.
Surely even you can see how this would be an issue, right? We’ve all seen the matchmaker break when one nation at a particular BR range gets uncontrollably spammed.
The people who stubbornly refuse to use CAS out of preference or principle are the loud minority. Most tank users do in fact use aircraft and/or SPAAGs.
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I do if there is an actual problem.
Please provide examples of tanks that can’t be dealt with at their B.R. in this positions.
That is why TO would be for health of the game, people would learn it instead of just using air to fix all of their issues.
Tanks are based on what enemies they face at their B.R. not that they will meet CAS.
If what You say was a case then most vehicles would be 1.0 as even maus can be destroyed by 1.0 planes with bombs.
That could be the case if people who just want to play tanks didn’t want to play such nations, can’t see that happening really.
But they would probably choose a TO if it was here instead of forcing themself to play something they don’t want to in first place.
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Here is a simple test then. Gaijin adds a tank only game mode, and lets see how popular it is?
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I don’t have an issue with those AA’s per se, but if you just get them for free and you have constantly 3 or 4 of them on the map with backups, it starts to be an issue.
You don’t see the problems because you choose not to, simple as that. I do get it to an extent - if you have no-lifed this game enough, eventually you find situations where you are astonished that other people don’t recognize stuff that is common sense to yourself. I’ve seen it with myself at times in the past.
It’s not so much “they can’t be dealt with at all” as it is “the effort you must expend is massively disproportionate to theirs, because most of the cards are stacked in their favor.”
It could be, I’ll admit it. But adding the mode does not directly do anything to address how badly CAS is implemented, thus you’ll only find me truly supporting any form of TO after CAS’s real problems are solved.
This is true. Lineup flexibility determines much more however than just the tanks available, and CAS is a significant part of that flexibility.
Of course you can’t see it happening, because you have no answer to this problem.
I have no answer to it either, at least not in a palatable way (because it seems people are consistently against copy-pastes from other nations which could be used to fill gaps in minor nations’ CAS options).
The same can be said about other modes like Air RB - many people clearly express their dislike of it, but there’s nowhere else to go for a lot of things so they tolerate it. Snail keeps shooting down proposals for alternative game modes over threat of queue times.
They did that back in 2019 for then-top-tier. If it were so popular, it would have been repeated and expanded. Instead, after that test ended, the devs chose to double down on saying “no, it’s not gonna happen.”
That suggests that it really isn’t as popular as its supporters wish it was.
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Also go cry somewhere else for your Tank only mode, there are enough threads for it and this isn’t one of them.
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If they ever do that the entire spaa line becomes irrelevant, do you see how silly this point is? Gaijin has invested god knows how many hours of manpower into adding AA to the game so people play it and now you’re suggesting a mode with no role for AA, lmao
Nope, there would be a problem if a player couldn’t do anything about it (like against air when he is in a tank, yet many choose to ignore that).
It highly depends. You can destroy T95 by just shooting at its cupola for example, what people need is learn instead of use crutches.
As we already had that talk, You can’t fix issues with CAS while also having people who just want to play tanks in a mode.
You mean line that can still be used in combined mode?
Unfortunately its diehard supporters have effectively morphed the idea into a “forum religion” for all intents and purposes.
And just like trying to argue with religious people in the real world, no amount of logic will change their minds if the questions being asked would ask them to potentially question their faith or parts of it. I live in the Southeastern US “Bible Belt” and have experienced this firsthand on multiple occasions. All such folk did to me was try and make me feel guilty for “daring to question the word of God” in the first place.
Not one of them has rationally laid out a detailed proposal for the mode, also laid out likely shortcomings of the mode idea, proposed solutions to those shortcomings so they never emerge in the first place, etc. - all the fine details one needs to at least consider to go from “raging against CAS and shouting to remove it” to “actually workable mode idea.”
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Yes they are.
When you look at the past changes in GRB, you’ll see that your proposals would basically top off the whole history of GRB changes when it comes to their impact to the game.
The issue lies in the need to rebalance pretty much whole tiers because all of a sudden AAs got much better at shredding tanks. Their efficiency would increase for sure, which is something that can’t just be ignored.
Not to mention that AAs running around the objectives alongside mediums and heavies would be just yet another CoD-ification of the game.
I hope you understand that our maps are pretty small and that added 300-500m of distance won’t matter much. All in all, this would be a major balancing issue which Gaijin isn’t really keen on doing.
Or you’ll end up unleashing their AT potential which would naturally increase their BR, meaning they’ll now start seeing more potent CAS that they might not be able to counter properly.
With your idea, many AAs are running a risk of becoming yet another ZSU-57-2, which is a vehicle that has much better AT performance than AA for it’s BR and vehicles it can see, basically making it a really, really poor AA.
Something like a T77E1 at 4.0 is better at AA than ZSU-57-2.
Also, just because you can hear them doesn’t mean you’ll be able to dodge their ordnance or that you’ll be able to fire at them in the first place.
You’re still getting engaged by something you had a legitimate chance of countering, which isn’t really true for CAS.
What ?
Every piece of military technology is designed to be as unfair as possible to their enemies.
This is a game at the end of the day and should be balanced, not unfair.
See above.
I actually see more TO chatter in here than about RB EC. People are allowed to try and push their ideas into the game.
They don’t want to make changes to the game that already brings them money ?
They already tools to do that, they’re called tanks.
Something so basic and etched into the core doesn’t work like that. People simply don’t enjoy playing with and against planes and that’s fine. Some might not enjoy tanks and they have ways to play games without them.
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Some still don’t get it, so we go in circles over and over again with changes/nerfs/buffs that doesn’t solve anything and that no one ask for, but hey, at least a group “x” has it worse so we can endure!
If only people could look past the hatred and understand what would really benefit the game/gameplay, we wouldn’t have the same mode for 10 years.
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How to fix the camping problem: make artillery more accurate or at least more likely to break things.
They either eat the 30 second repair or learn to move their ass.
Yes, some of that is intentional. Modern tech has simply stretched existing problems well beyond their breaking points, in addition to introducing more problems specific to that tech.
Unfortunately, neither you nor I know what are Gaijin’s thresholds for changing the BR of a given AA vehicle. I would advocate for raising those thresholds considerably, if I knew what they are.
Yes I do understand, but only increasing map sizes is something that can hope to address that. Artificially neutering SPAAGs to make it less obvious that map sizes and objective designs are trash is literally punishing the shark for the stupidity of the seal.
All but a few of them from 3.0 onwards have a lot of latent AT potential. German AAs from the Whirbelwind onwards. American and other nations AAs from the M19A1 onwards.
To a significant extent, the proposed short range arcade lead marker would help alleviate this by quite a lot. For a bone-stock crew, you get a lead marker on planes you visually see from 0-1000m away. If you fully upgrade Rangefinding and Commander Leadership for that crew, out to 1250m. If you Expert that crew, out to 1400m. If you Ace that crew, 1500m is the absolute limit. Even the ZSU-57/2 would now have at least a shit’s chance in hell of hitting planes now that it sees where to aim when they are close enough to bother trying.
But first and foremost I would need to know what the threshold values on vehicular performance statistics are for moving them up or down in BR, and then suggest they be changed to give AAs more room.
The same can be said for any flanking party. Even if you can see or hear them coming you may not be able to get behind something in time or turn your tank so their shot bounces (if it has any armor to bounce with).
Every vehicle cannot counter every other vehicle, is that not expected from a game with various vehicle classes that specialize in different jobs?
Yes, and there is a lot more this game has not tried to actually balance things beyond “flipping the table” by adding a totally separate game mode.
They haven’t given non-radar AAs a lead indicator at short ranges to teach average joes where and WHEN to shoot. They haven’t given us Naval-style default planes in our decks. They haven’t expanded the default AA feature to all BRs, itself inspired by the Naval default plane concept. They haven’t lowered the SP costs of fighters without air-to-ground weaponry. There is so much they have not tried in the slightest.
Most of the chatter is done by the same handful of people if you pay attention long enough. The same arguments cycle over and over and over, apparently a suggestion was written and passed to devs years ago on the old forum, and because of that no new suggestions have been accepted for debate since. With a case like that, what I cannot quite grasp is how long will you and other TO supporters take to recognize its a lost cause and instead push for what IS practical to change?
For example, we both have our own ideas on the direction the mode should go, but we both completely agree the kill camera is stupid and enables rage-inducing revenge bombing. Imagine if all the people who support TO instead piled their support behind the things that “CAS Reformers” (for lack of a better moniker) like myself also call for.
So then what is your recourse if continuing to call for TO looks like a lost cause?
And the majority of players are unbelievable idiots who barely know how to drive their tanks. If you put something well-armored in a tough spot with room to go hull down, people will shout how “OP” it is first long before they will stop to think what they themselves did wrong and could possibly change about their own behavior or tank choice.
It is indeed a frame shift in how balancing would be performed. But I have no other ideas on how to permanently resolve a lot of the complaining without endless cycles of screaming and appeasement. That is why I arrived at the conclusions I did.
Recent observations of how that screaming about CAS “mysteriously vanishes” when people get their hands on working counters fit for what WT gameplay demands in sufficient quantities to be effective appear to be evidence in favor of what I propose. Including the free AA inspiring this topic.
TO could help some things, I will admit. But adding a new game mode does not directly address the problems with the existing one - it only serves as a means to ignore the problems of the existing one.
I don’t see why we can’t pursue both routes, but will always feel that we gotta address the CAS implementation problems first. None of us actually know how many people would still support TO mode if all of the things making people angry at CAS were properly dealt with.
I already proposed that in prior CAS argument threads as what snail would likely do if they ever added TO mode. I would not mind seeing Artillery Support be vastly increased in lethality, nevermind also diversified between nations.
Increase the gun caliber so the shells have much more significant splash radii, increase the number of shells per bombardment (with bigger gun sizes the number of rounds would go down proportionally), and having gun caliber increase with BR so they remain effective no matter how heavily armored your tanks are.
Things could get as massive as the 800mm Schwerer Gustav Railway Gun Germany used against the Soviets, which fired 7-ton shells. Or perhaps a Soviet-specific option could be a multi-minute Katyusha barrage on a specific location.
This could also help alleviate part of the CAS problems too if it were added to the Combined Arms mode we already have as well. These artillery targets would be physically present on the tank map, and every AI unit eating a piece of ordinance means one less angry player who ate that piece of ordinance.
It serves as taking out players who just want to play tanks meaning the real outcome of how things are in combined gamemode with only people wanting combined aspect of the game.
Gaijin is consistently shrinking down our maps, so making them flip their script would be a big challenge to say the least.
So plenty of them would skyrocket in BR, making them way less useful against CAS.
I don’t think that’s the way to fix AAs and their problems.
Gaijin is balancing vehicles by their efficiency, so whatever buffs you give to AA it might result in a significant BR increase, which might prove to be too much for that arcade lead marker to handle.
ZSU-57-2 has like 3.0 BR worthy AA performance, but is at 7.0 due to it’s really good AT potential.
Some AAs would just get stomped by CAS at their new BRs, just because they got better at destroying tanks, which defeats the purpose of making them more viable at doing their job.
Tank of a specific BR will have much better chances of destroying another tank at the same BR, than it would have if he was engaging CAS of the same BR.
And RB EC is discussed by thousands of different people ?
I don’t think so.
TO is the only way to truly fix issues people have with CAS. They aren’t interested in playing with or against planes, it’s a simple concept.
It’s also funny from you to say that TO isn’t practical while pretty much changing the whole GRB from the ground up is.
Kill camera is stupid for more than one reason.
It’s basically a reward for getting outplayed, which in turn might hurt your legitimate flanking efforts, as now enemies have your exact location given to the basically for free.
It’s pretty much of the most degenerate and arcade-y mechanics I’ve seen in this game.
I’ll keep asking for it.
Gaijin also said no to high power missiles, but here we are.
Yes, let them improve and learn the maps.
Giving them an easy way out with that flying crutch just deepens the problem.
So CAS issue can’t really be solved without basically turning WT into a completely different game than it is right now. Goes to show how deep the problem lies and how easily it can be solved by giving people an alternative game mode.
No reason why should we firstly push for a complete overhaul of the game instead of an easy-to-implement mode to give people a chance to play without the broken assets.
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This is correct - it was badly implemented in the first place as a revenge killstreak powerup ripped out of CoD or Battlefield. It’s ability to do anything in matches was severely limited to direct antitank duty, when there is so much more that real CAS did to affect battle outcomes.
TO’s sole purpose is to enable people with no interest in aircraft to be able to ignore the problems. That is all. It doesn’t fix anything.
TO does not make revenge killing any less annoying in the Combined Arms mode. TO does not make SPAAG any more useful at either defending themselves nor shooting down planes effectively in the Combined Mode prior to the introduction of Radar AAs. TO does not give CAS any of its missing objectives.
Well at least we are in total agreement here, if nothing else.
It was back when EC was being tested regularly in the 2016-2020 era of WT. Then it went quiet once the dev whose pet project EC was left the WT dev team. People were generally ecstatic about the mode, myself included.
Tell me - how does TO existing do anything at all to make revenge bombing less common or annoying in the Combined Arms mode?
How does TO existing do anything at all to make SPAAG any more effective at their intended jobs in the Combined Arms mode prior to introduction of radar SPAAG?
How does TO existing do anything at all to give CAS their plethora of totally missing objectives in the Combined Arms mode which would finally give CAS several healthy objectives to do instead of bomb player tanks?
I do not see how adding that game mode brings us any closer to any of those, unless you’re thinking that it existing would trigger some form of mass exodus to try and force the devs’ hand? That would likely result in things being broken even further with a rushed sledgehammered-in change or few, because the CAS mess is annoyingly complex.
Most of the essential parts of my CAS Reforms already exist in the game in some form, in addition to adding them not going against the direction the devs have stated they’ve been going in for many years:
- The option to turn the kill cam off already exists - I propose merely making that the automatically set option for RB and Simulator, and making it impossible to change in those modes. Makes revenge killing with any vehicle type less common.
- The option to runway spawn already exists in RB - I propose making that the only option. Makes revenge bombing take considerably more time and thus occur less often.
- The sort of lead indicators I am proposing already exist in Arcade - I am merely proposing copying that over and reducing the max range.
- Naval mode already has default aircraft at every BR range - I am proposing copying that whole system over and changing the exact planes spawned where applicable (to not be stuck in a torpedo-carrying plane over a land battle for obvious reasons, as it isn’t that one April Fools event where torpedoes were acting like FAB-5000s anymore)
Those are all the easy things to fix which would help in turning down the heat for everyone regardless of their particular opinion on CAS involvement.
TO is not able to help with any of those issues. It certainly could have a place in the game after the truly needlessly frustrating stuff about CAS is dealt with, because then we’ll more clearly see if its even a popular idea at all with the main annoying things about CAS removed.
The main thing making TO not practical is the devs refusing to budge. Maps are currently built with the assumption CAS exists, and would need to either be changed more to fit TO (likely shrunk further) or see a replacement anti-camping function added (totally new uphill battle with devs to code that in). The matchmaker population splits between Combined Arms and Tank Only are unavoidable, and will cause significant headaches on the devs’ end whether you like/believe it or not.
CAS is not overpowered. CAS is not broken. It’s just badly implemented as a CoD-style killstreak powerup. Always has been ever since the Spawn Point system we have in RB today debuted more than ten years ago in an event called “Sky is for Heroes.”
CAS shouldn’t be a problem to begin with to people that don’t enjoy aircraft.
They should be able to play without air interference.
TO gives people something to play if they feel like current GRB isn’t balanced in aspects that are affected by CAS.
Please read my comment again.
TO is the only way to truly fix issues people have with CAS. They aren’t interested in playing with or against planes, it’s a simple concept.
No, they are seemingly easy to implement because they are in the game.
What’s hard there is balancing the impact those things will have to the game.
I doubt they are.
Nothing wrong with splits, otherwise this whole game would be a single game mode.
It is indeed broken and will remain that way until the game changes from it’s core.
People not wanting aircraft in their games also cannot be changed.
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