Flakpanzer Gepard 1A2: Rounds Down Range

Suggestions Ground
1
[Would you like to see this in-game?]
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

Capture2.thumb.PNG.aa4716ded645e9bf04dbe

Gepard_1A2.thumb.jpg.d1af6756c60d6e754fb

German Flakpanzer Gepard 1A2 mobile anti-aircraft system.

Background:

  • The Flugabwehrkanonenpanzer Gepard (“anti-aircraft cannon tank Cheetah”, also known as the Flakpanzer Gepard) is an all-weather-capable German self-propelled anti-aircraft gun (SPAAG). It was developed in 1963 as a private venture to provide the German Army a modern/effective SPAAG during the height of the Cold War. The first prototypes were tested in 1968, passing several tests in the proving grounds before being adopted by the German Army in 1973, entering service initially as the Flakpanzer-1 Gepard. The Gepard was initially designed to protect installations, combat units, and troops from aircraft however due its versatility, it is able to combat light vehicles with APDS as well as a newer FAPDS rounds. Over 420 were built for the German Army. In 1976, a new model of the Gepard 1A2 was introduced with significant upgrades, including a new digital fire control system, new types of ammunition, etc., which became the mainstay of the German Army as well as the armies of Brazil, Chile, Jordan, Romania and the Netherlands. In Germany, the Gepard 1A2 was phased out in late 2010 and replaced by Wiesel 2 Ozelot Leichtes Flugabwehrsystem (LeFlaSys) with four FIM-92 Stinger or LFK NG missile launchers
  • The Gepard 1A2 is fitted with twin Oerlikon KDA 35mm auto-cannons. These guns are belt-fed, allowing the rotation between multiple variants of ammunition and can carry a maximum of 680 rounds. Maximum rate of fire for a single gun is 550 rounds per minute. The Flakpanzer Gepard 1A2 utilizes a new APDS round known as the DM33 Frangible Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot-Tracer (FAPDS-T). This round likely still retains the similar characteristics as the DM23 APDS round in terms of penetrating capability, however the Tungsten core is designed to fragment post-penetration causing several fragments to splinter and wreak havoc inside of an armored vehicle. This new FAPDS round increases the Gepard’s survivability against light to medium vehicles. General search radar is located at the rear of the turret roof and tracking radar is located between the guns. The Gepard 1A2 is fitted with friend-or-foe identification system integrated with the Search RADAR. Both the Search and Track RADAR’s of the Gepard 1A2 has a maximum range of 15 km. It provides all-round scanning with simultaneous target tracking as well as search on the move capabilities. This SPAAG is also fitted with a digital fire control system. The hull of the Gepard 1A2 is based on a Leopard 1, providing protection against small caliber cannons, while turret protection is only against small arms fire and artillery shell splinters. It is also fitted with NBC protection system. The Gepard 1A2 has a crew of three, including commander, gunner and driver.
  • Gepard 1A2 upgrade listing:
    • Enhanced NBC protection system for increased survivability.
    • Unspecified Night Vision Devices for crew members for night time targeting.
    • EADS Digital Fire Control System with increased firing ranges and reduced reaction time.
    • New Laser Rangefinder mounted above the tracking RADAR.
    • New ammunition such as DM33 FAPDS-T, etc.
    • New RADAR capabilities increasing detection ranges to 15km.
    • APU to operate without use of engine to decrease thermal signature.
  • This variant of Gepard was used by the German Army for over 34 years!

Specifications:

  • Armament:
    • 2x 35mm KDA Oerlikon GDF Auto-cannons
      • Characteristics:
        • Length: 90 Calibers
        • Rate of Fire (RoF): 550rds/min.
    • Ammunition (Rounds carried by the 1A2 with the exception of the incendiary rounds):
      • DM33 FAPDS-T:
      • Muzzle Velocity: 1,400m/s
        • Penetration:
          • Likely the same as the DM23 or slightly weaker.
        • Designed for anti-aircraft use.
        • 640rds carried.
        • Note: This round has very similar pentation capabilities of the DM23, however, it is capable of fragmenting significantly causing far more damage and spalling (see pictures). Exact penetration values differ per source.
    • DM23 APDS
      • Same as in-game.
    • DM11A1 HEI-T:
      • Muzzle Velocity: 1,175m/s
      • Penetration:
        • ~15mm up to 500m.
          • Designed for anti-aircraft use.
    • Storage:
      • Total of 680rds stored.
    • Effective Range: 5.5km
    • Disclaimer: There are reports of a 35mm APFSDS Long Rod round (PMD-060) developed in the late 80’s to early 2000’s with a penetration of ~170mm of RHA at point blank range used however I haven’t found any credible source. This would exponentially raise its BR if found to be actively used by the German Gepard 1A2. In the most likely case, only the newer FAPDS-T and HVAPDS-T rounds were used. If you can provide more details, please place in comments.
  • Armor:
    • All-around 30-25mm RHA (same values as in-game).
    • Small arms protection on the turret (same values as in-game).
  • Sensors:
    • Fire Control System:
      • EADS Digital Computer
        • Fire-on-Move capability.
        • Increased firing range.
    • Search RADAR:
      • Type: S-Band
        • Search-on-Move capability.
      • Range: 15km
      • Scanning Capability: 360 degrees.
    • Tracking RADAR:
      • Type: Ku-Band
        • Track-on-Move capability.
      • Range: 15km
  • Maneuverability:
    • Engine:
      • MTU MB 838 Ca M500 10-cylinder Multifuel Diesel
    • Power Output:
      • 830hp at 2,200rpm
    • Transmission:
      • 4 Forward, 2 Reverse
    • Speed:
      • 65 km/h
    • Power-to-Weight Ratio:
      • 17.5 hp/t
    • Turret Traverse:
      • 90 degrees per second.
    • Gun Elevation:
      • -10 to 85 degrees, powered elevation of 45 degrees per second.
  • Crew (x3):
    • Gunner
    • Commander
    • Driver

Accessories

  • Fire-protection Equipment
  • 8x 76mm Smoke Grenades (4x each side)
  • Laser Rangefinder
  • Night Vision Device
    • Driver
    • Commander
    • Gunner

In-game:

  • Simple post to include an upgraded Gepard similar to the jump of the Leopard A1A1 to the Leopard 1A5.
  • The Gepard 1A2 would perform very similarly to the current in-game Gepard 1 with the exception of stronger ammunition, night vision equipment, increased search/track range, and slightly increased firing range due to upgraded fire control. This vehicle will look almost exactly the same as all upgrades are internal with the exception of the new laser rangefinder above the tracking RADAR.
  • The Frangible APDS would increase survivability as it would “shred” modules and side armor of tanks, causing a lot more fragmentation disposing of crews. The difference between the DM23 and DM33 is the ability to fragment. The overall penetration capability remains almost the same.
  • The DM63 will increase overall effectiveness of the Gepard against land-based vehicles. Performance is similar to the DM23 in terms of characteristic with greater penetration.
  • Gunner NVD would allow for night-time anti-air capability.

Imagery:

Spoiler

Gepard3.thumb.PNG.067fe9e933f9548741c98b

Gepard 1A2 conducting firing exercises.

https://youtu.be/c2O_7Bn_OZ8

Live fire exercise of a Gepard 1A2.


View of the DM33 FAPDS tip.


Full view of the DM33 FAPDS round.


Bottom of the DM33 FAPDS round, showing location of primer.


Gram showing the capabilities of the 35mm rounds, more specifically the FAPDS.

Sources:

4 Likes
2

The Gepard 1A2 in-game is a prototype with stingers. The real 1A2 has similar capabilities to the standard Gepard but is equipped with superior munitions and a laser rangefinder.

11 Likes
3

3 gepards would be a lot, maybe this could be an upgrade for the first gepard in tt that we already have? the bmp has an overhaul upgrade so gepard should be able to have one as well

3 Likes
4

Becoming a modified part is a better option

2 Likes
5

propably not an option , because fapds would increase the BR by a lot they dont like those kind of auto cannon shredders

6

the LFK NG never made it out of planning , there is not even documents that real prototypes existed for test firing

2 Likes
7

And oh yeah, before the Gepard improvements get added, i would love to see the proxy stingers working on the Gepard 1A2, in my current knowledge they are still bugged and cant be equipped

8

itd have roughly the same pen as the AP belt on the LAV-AD

9

în that case i realy dont understand why they dont wanna give them FAPDS, they main purpose is faster velocity to hit far away targets

1 Like
10

that being said , the penetration of lav ad is 66mm, this thread says FAPDS is 133mm at 10m range

1 Like
11

Not sure if thats possible considering normal APDS from the gepard is 127mm at 10m and FAPDS should have less pen, not more

12

So, is it me, or is the a2 bugged?

when you fire off the secondary belt (40 rounds, 20 per gun) for the ap rounds, you are unable to re-arm it on a point untill you also dump all 600+ rounds out of your primary ammunition.

Also, as far as i know, isnt the gepard a2 supposed to be equipped with thermals, programmable munitions to combat drones, frangibale rounds as its primary ammunition and a more advanced radar/tracking system?

The leading on the gun seems to be WAY worse than the gepard at 8.0 for some reason, i rarely ever can score a hit with the radar lead on the A2, but im fine with the normal Gerard. Why is the modernized Gerard a2 from late 1990 early 2000’s have worse target acquisition and tracking than the 1960 variant from 40+ years earlier?

It acts like a normal Gerard with some half ass fligerfaults strapped to the side that don’t seem to benefit from the radar data (something that the AIM-92k rocket can use to track and lock on better, via the data link to the seeker),

It also seems overtired. i cant lock on to most helicopters until they are withing 2.5-3k, and drone are near impossible, yet at 9.7+ they are equipped with thermals and 6km+ AGTM missiles, meaning i have zero capability to fight back against them, not to mention i am CONSTANTLY facing planes like a-4 and a6, and a10 planes with 8+km guided bomb munitions, which means they can kill me before they even show up on my radar.

How is that fair and balanced? Every time i die i’m paying over 6k repairs, and I have zero capability to fight back against them.

Edit:
Also the ammunition box on the back is for spare fligerfaust missiles, yet in the game it is molded as empty, meaning the A2 has no reloads of its missile system, which is inaccurate historically.

3 Likes
14

IM pretty sure that the 2000 era Gerard is not using the radar and tracking system from 1960 like when it was built.

I know wiki is not always the best source, but to be honest IDK where to really get first hand info on German vehicles.

https://hu.frwiki.wiki/wiki/Flakpanzer_Gepard#Production_et_mises_à_jour

“After that (the a1 variant), a further one hundred and forty-seven vehicles received significant improvements from 1988, with most of the analog systems being replaced by digital controls, while the ammunition and communication systems were also modernized. These Gepards then take on the designation A2.”

" When a target is identified as enemy and the crew wants to engage it, it is tracked by fire control radar . It is also a pulsed Doppler radar manufactured by Siemens and Albiswerk, which [was originally cone scanning , but became monopulse from the B2 (a1) version onwards . It operates in the Ku band and faces the front of the tower at 200 °up to fifteen kilometers at most. The scale of this area helps reduce the system’s reaction time by reducing the need to rotate the turret to engage the target. The radars, the vehicle’s tilt sensors and those that measure the speed at the exit of the nose of the shell, a computer located in the chest room of the turret automatically shows the weapons and performs the necessary pointing in real time. repairs."

So to conclude, Yes, the A2 variant should have a far better radar tracking, prediction and guidance system, since it was modernized for the a1+ variants in 1977 onward. It should not be the same system as on the 1960 variant of the Gerard that is 1.7br lower.

In terms of the Ahead multipurpose shells, i don’t see why its an issue. They are designed to fragment very aggressively, which is why they are great AA shells, and why Germany switched to them, since type are higher velocity than the old 1960 HE shells, meaning they are easier to use to hit jets, and can go farther to combat helicopters. Almost every other AA at that br is rocking 100+ pen APDS belts on chain guns, or just APFSDS shell, and some are even armed with anti tank missiles. So why the Gerard cant have its historical ammo to make it a more effective AA is beyond me and does not make logical sense.

1 Like
15

The Gepard can only shoot them not programm them to explode themself, in that regard they would be like slightly differently acting HE ammunition

That is what the FAPDS ammunition is supposed to be used for that one has the increased velocity for it , to be exact the HE ammunition has higher velocity then the AHEAD ammunition even

Ku band is J band range, which both gepards use, both gepard versions use the exact same radars

most of those upgrades are only internaly which doesnt translates into war thunder, the only real important upgrade the Gepard 1A2 got is the ability to shoot FAPDS which is lacking in war thunder

and here a picture that explains radar frequency ranges
image

16

I understand they cant use the airburst programmable feature, but the ahead ammunition still fragments way more upon contact, even in "dumb mode’ and is higher velocity than the HE round (to my knowledge). Regardless, it was a primary ammunition of the gepard A2 since its multipurpose, and should be in game, especially given the BR of this thing.

In terms of the radar, I’m just stating that its not modeled correctly. Compared to the Gepard (a0 variant at 8.0), the fire control system was upgraded and has better and longer range capabilities, and to account for newer munitions developed compared to the original one form the 1960’s. The a2 in game currently does not reflect having that in any way. I can barely get the radar to find plane past 8km, let alone the theoretical 15km normal maximum.

The Geperd A2 is by far the worst AA at the BR, and appears to still be a hobbled together mess of programming and broken models, even close to a year after release, and is unable to effectively fight planes of the BR since they can just outrage it by 3+km more km past my max ( so 8+ total) with precision bombs and guided AGTM;s from helo and 1980+ jets, while i have zero capability to fight back.

1 Like
17

like i said ahead has lower velocity

nup primary round is the missing FAPDS

doesnt matter much the ammo is the same so it is not noticeable, the upgrades were so the gepard can use teh fapds ammo which needs better control with higher velocity

18

Ah ya sorry.
I meant to say the fapds is the main ammo that’s higher velocity (and fragments really aggressively on impact).

Which is one of the reasons for it’s upgraded targeting systems and such in the a1+ models.

The ahead ammo is not uaed on geoard to my knowledge since it can’t be programed at it’s detonation range.

19

thats literaly what i said the whole time xD, but jup FAPDS just simply is missing completly currently due to “balancing” reasons, every upgrade including targeting system was so taht it can reliably shoot FAPDS, best guess gajin didnt want to implement it since switching ammo belts would result in completly different targeting lead results and they were to lazy

20

That’s my bad. When I created the suggestion a while ago, I was talking with someone about the penetration values and they used a different formula system on it. However this was changed and I forgot to remove it from the post. I haven’t been able to find the real values of it.

21

ya sorry, there are to many acronyms these days.

My original point was that the gepard a2 does not get its realistic main ammo belt (FAPDS), nor its improved radar and tracking, to give it better and more effective long range capabilities.

Its also modeled incorrectly, and had no spare Faust missiles (what the box on the back is for), nor its backup multi-fuel motor where the ammo used to be (front left), completely missing its thermals for the gunner, on top of a plethora of other issues.

At 9.7, when i’m facing a slew of aircraft that are armed with munitions that can effectively target and destroy me at 8km+, i need to have SOME TYPE of armament to combat them (even if if a worse worse one than theirs)

the current gepard a0 and a2 can only shoot their guns at up to about 5-6km for the 35 (im saying effective is like 2-3km due to how easy it is to avoid the shots due to it being 100% traced and slow), and 2-4km for the faust (depending on target type, changes lock on)

This means that the Gepard A2 has less than HALF the combat capable range on average of what its fighting. That is HORRIBLE.

There is a reason i never see it taken, and i didn’t know why until recently when i unlocked it. I am dying almost every match to A-4, A6e-tram, A-10 planes, su-25k, and a slew of other stuff (helicopters with thermals + 8km+ ATGM’s) before i can even get a CHANCE to shoot back at them.

Half the time, even if i do get a chance, my FIM-92 missile either misses (since they are nerfed artificially and cant guide to target if they bank or circle spin… making them super easy to avoid), and if i do hit, i have like a 60% chance of it not killing for some reason… (last match i hit a UH-1b 3 times with the FIM-92e, and it still did not die, and it re-landed and survived to later kill me with its ATGM)

Its hands down the worst AA of its BR, and way to expensive to repair for what it offers, I am hemorrhaging money trying to ace it.

Edit: It also cant lock on to scout drones at ANY range, which leave my team vulnerable to being spotted constantly. This was something that the gepard was updated for in the a2 model.

1 Like