I 100% agree so pseudo-IFV gameplay shouldnt be forced either ;)
No - the SIDAM 25
Fun fact about this;
Way back in the old days, the Coelian used to be above the Kugelblitz, prior to gaijin nerfing the Coelian into the ground. Coelian was 6.7/7,0 and kugel was 6.3/6.7 (cant remember exactly). Following the Coelians nerf, it started performing so badly that it was dropped down to 6.3, and gaijin flipped their spots in the TT cuz it made no sense researching the better SPAA first. Later on, players started whining that the Kugelblitz was too strong, so gaijn went and nerfed it into the ground to placate those players, leaving it in the state it is today.
So all in all, we’ve basely gone full circle, almost a whole decade later. Players have always cried about german AA being “too strong” and it has always had a significant impact on the actual capabilities depicted in-game unfortunately.
6 Likes
Now they’ve added borderline OP vehicles to USA tree (T58, XM246, XM800T), so the Germans get to eat good again, with said 341 buffage (obviously they eat good at top-tier, and we’ll ignore the fact it took them forever to move begleit up)
2 Likes
The ZSU37 is at a higher BR in adition it has no armor and giant ammo rack
The SIDAM is different as it should have separate magazines attached to each gun for the self defense magazine, but I don’t know if there is anything physically stopping APDS shells from being loaded to the main magazines.
I remember the days of the wirbelwind being a really good TD before the pen nerf, fun times. They should bring that back
Irl it had additional apds belts, although unlike in the game they were used only for lower (iirc) pair of cannons with each containing 15 shells. And of course as in many modern SPAAGs you could instantly change belts from HE to APDS without need to shoot)
Btw in Oto Melara brochures you can find SAPHEI-T shells mentioned for SIDAM-25, they aren’t AP of course but would still be useful against lightly-armored targets.
As for APDS fitting into the main belt idk, the manual (which is publically available and on which devs based the model) tells about 30 HEI + 600 APDS, but it can be not a physical restriction, but a doctrine one.
1 Like
Well the ACTUAL spaa only carries 30.
Why should Gaijin bend over backward to accommodate your suggestions that have no bearing in reality? There’s no need for every vehicle to be able to destroy every other vehicle. That’s what specialization is for.
And IF they gave it unlimited AP ammo, then it would get moved up in BR - which is silly. Would make killing air targets harder because they would be faster or have longer range weapons or both.
Let’s actually take a look at these. Which one of these SPAA you mentioned are actually both lower BR and have higher penetration?
ZSUs, so ZSU-37. The others are all higher BR.
ZSU-37-1 has 70mm with solid AP and 87mm with HVAP. The relevant comparison here is solid shot, as HVAP is anemic in damage and angled penetration (the important statistic). Solid shot lacks damage in comparison to actual miniature nuke APHE. ZSU-37 is fittingly, also inferior in rate of fire, turret traverse speeds, protection and mobility; justifying the significantly lower BR.
Next we have the “Vietnam era US AA”, which probably means the M42 Duster, as the M163 and Chaparral are both higher BR and lack penetration (or the ability to engage tanks period). M42 is lower for good reason, it’s got worse pen, worse ammo (solid AP), worse rate of fire and significantly worse armor.
M53/59 (I assume this is what you mean by M53) is the same BR.
Then we have the “French AA”, which is clearly a reference to the AMX-13 DCA with 90mm of solid shot penetration. It’s the second one with higher penetration and lower BR.
For completeness I will also mention the AMX-10P, as it too is french “AA”. AMX-10P is… the same BR and lacks penetration.
All of these also are not mentioning the multiple other reasons for their reduced BR when in comparison to the Coelian, as penetration in vacuum isn’t exactly a meaningful metric to begin with.
So out of all those you listed, only two have penetration comparable or superior to Coelian and lower BR. ZSU-37 and AMX-13 DCA. Not really “all have that kind of pen… usually at FAR lower BRs”.
2 Likes
And the Tiger IIs didn’t carry ammo in the back of the turret when it was discovered it was most vulnerable there. Is this done in-game? No lol
But that’s not my argument; it’s that most often these are just made up restrictions instead of real limitations. If you want a penalty for loading full AP - just increase its spawn cost to that of an SPG.
For some maybe it is made-up. No idea on the Gepard. But for the SIDAM it’s not a made up restriction…
“These guns usually fire short 15 - 25 round bursts. Ammo is of the HE-Frag type, but in extreme cases, it can engage also ground targets due to a supply of only 30 armor-piercing, even APDS (Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot) rounds according to the Italian source.”
There’s no good reason to campaign for that specific spaa to have a larger supply of AP than it really had.
As for the Tiger II not having ammo in back of turret, pages 92-93 of Chris Ellis & Peter Chamberlain’s book “German Tanks & Fighting Vehicles of World War II” has a cross-section of Tiger II H that clearly shows a stack of 88mm rounds in the back of the turret. That would be the “ready rack” and maybe it was eventually banned by High Command at some point, it’s not a made-up aspect.
It was forbidden to do so later on.
2 Likes
It’s absolutely ridiculous where it is right now. I had two in one game of ground and they went around shredding everything they saw. It should be moved up to at least 6.7 because it has solid armour and a crazy good gun. I don’t see why gaijin keeps updating vehicles that were removed, especially this one. How can they say it has 87mm of pen if it never existed
The guns did exist at least 3 where made
1 Like
Myth or prove it 🙃
A wooden mock-up of the turret was constructed and mounted on a Panther D chassis, but no fully operational vehicle was ever built.
Ok, but your question was “how can they say it had X pen”. They can, because the guns were built in metal, even if the turret was not. The user-submitted bug report that triggered this change has supporting documentation.
1 Like
The guns, ammo and the tank chassis existed. Just the turret was wooden, a placeholder/mockup. So its an almost completed prototype. Several were built. There are worse fake vehicles ingame.
Edit: Isn’t this an early Panther A hull? Could be that the Flakpanzer should be without governor. Its without MG ball…
2 Likes
No, Panther D. In game they have incorrectly given it a G hull.
That said engine governor wasn’t paired to chassis type, it’s just that in game we have late war representations of both the A and the G. That’s why they’re governed. Earlier As and Gs would not be.
1 Like