Demon br thread
Looks inside: f4 phantom discussion
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Slightly better I agree. But just better makes it seem like its a big improvement which is not, and its not better in every scenario, because of the lower top speed
The tiny miniscule advantages the F-4J gets by being ever so slightly lighter and ever so slightly less draggy do not make up for the much more significant advantages slats bring. Especially, again, as 90% of your opponents are gen4 and will run you down anyway. It is far better to have better agility for notching or simply jinking shots
Did you mean baby phantom thread? XD
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They are actually the same weight, already corrected that. I was previously thinking the F-4J had the same empty weight as the F-4EJ.
1325 kph vs 1402 kph. That’s enough of a difference to be able to run away from the mig-21bis varaints for example, there are a bunch from 11.0 to 12.3, whereas the F-4S would not. Also more speed/climb = more effective range on your sparrows.
The better agility is only noticeable at slow speeds, and if you drop to the speeds where the slats actuate, you are already doing something wrong, because at slow speed you are easy prey for most of the things you will face.
Before you start putting words on my mouth again, I’m not saying the F-4J is better. I prefeer the agile eagle FM but its just not better in every way. F-4S is at most slightly bit better, and overall just a sidegrade
Those slats literally won’t pop out unless you turn. The drag is basically negligible.
It’s the same pair of engines.
They can rip in a dive.
The AOA benefits from slats are literally accessible at all speeds below compression speed which is a bit past mach. That’s not slow.
Again, you are quite literally contradicting years of existing and established advantages that slats provide to planes in game.
If you need to run away from a mig-21bis from the deck, you’ve already screwed up. And unless you’re already at that speed (you won’t be), that mig will catch you regardless.
And seriously. Speed at deck level is not a useful advantage. What exactly are you doing being at deck level at 12.0? Are you asking to get mogged?
They literally have considerably different top speeds. The different wings with slats have a greater drag penalty even with them retracted.
Technically different, F-4J has a tiny bit more thrust. Like at mach 1 it has about 100kgf more per engine. Essencially the same, really. I only noticed because you mentioned the thrust so I went ahead and tested that, since they have different engine names and the statcard also shows a different number.
Naturally
I only noticed a meaningful difference when the slats opened up, I was looking at live data with WTRTI
The G overload above that is essentially the same between both in similar circumstances. Which is expected.
What? Where? All I’m saying is that they turn similarly above 900kph or so. I’m not contradicting anything because how would the slats make any difference when they are closed?
In most scenarios, you should not be under that speed when playing the phantom, only in very niche cases.
Imagine that you merge, and keep going, the mig-21bis can catch up with the F-4S but the F-4J it will never catch, it rips before the F-4J even reaches its top speed, and R-60M’s you can flare just fine anyway.
Regardless of altitude, the F-4J will always be faster since it’s more aerodynamic. Sea level was the reference altitude for the test.
Also what you mean by asking to get mogged? At that BR if you are trying to run away, doing it in the deck is common practice unless you want to eat a radar missile from rear aspect.
Only on the deck, which you shouldn’t be at.
It’s the same engine. Why would two identical, copy pasted engines have different thrusts?
They can be opened manually through combat flaps. Also, suggesting that slats somehow not a net benefit is what I meant by contradicting established conventions. You gain very marginal drag for a substantial AOA/sustained turn boost at all speeds below compression.
Except most of the time if you’re on the deck and a mig-21 is on your tail you usually won’t be at top speed. And if you aren’t at top speed to begin with, that mig will catch. You find the idea of a phantom being at lower speeds bad but not a phantom being on the deck?
Its a marginal difference that is less noticable the higher you go in altitude (which is the way to play any radar missile plane in game) It’s also a difference that can be fixed by simply bringing less fuel.
Being on the deck actively restricts your situational awareness while making you very vulnerable to top down attacks. There’s a reason why being on the deck and multipathing is widely looked down upon.
Brother, its at every altitude. How hard is it to understand? You don’t even have the F-4J why are you making such statements?
You never played ANY phantom lmao
How did you come up with that? They have different names and slightly different static thrust ratings in the game. That alone indicates that they might be different. Like I said, I also though they were the same since I never noticed that detail, only after you mentioned thrust.
The static thrust for both jets when ramming them into a building are:
F-4S - 8040 kgf per engine
F-4J - 8063 kgf per engine
So at static, they have an irrelevant difference really
At mach 1 they have a 100kgf difference. At higher speeds, it should be higher. But all things considered its still irrelevant and they are practically the same engines, as we assumed. But technically different.
The engine difference is so small that it alone doesn’t justify the difference in top speed and acceleration post mach. That’s due to drag differences like I repeatedly said.
They can, if you want to compress the jet even more and get an even worse turn rate as the result. Those slats only open automatically from 900kph and lower for a reason.
Its clear to me that you don’t know what you are talking about.
Would be great if you stopped acting in bad faith.
I never said they were not a benefit. They serve their function to provide more lift in high AoA turns, all I’ve been explaining to you is that the different wing has its downsides too.
In a merge, he would have to turn around, in the F-4J you can just keep going and reset whenever convenient. Regardless, this was just an aleatory example to say that top speed matters.
You want to teach me how to play the jet you never did?
Wrong.
At 4000m their top speeds with a gunpod are:
F-4S: 1614kph
F-4J: 1703kph
The higher you go, the bigger the difference it will be.
That’s besides the point I was trying to make.
If you are running away, which was the situation I was talking about when staying on the deck, by climbing you are just asking to die to any SARH carrier.
To be honest, I don’t know why we are arguing. You never played a single phantom. You don’t have authority on the subject.
You also never touched the F3H-2, so your comments about the missile performance hold little to no weight. I don’t even know why you are on this thread.
… Its not though? All phantoms have roughly the same max speed at alt.
Nice try. But I do. If you bothered Statsharking at least do it properly.
They are basically identical for gameplay purposes.
But the guy who thinks playing it at low alt at 12.0 is?
you literally made a post earlier stating that there are more disadvantages to slats. Bad faith? This is your own words.
Blantant lies? A phantom is literally my 2nd highest played plane.
So then why are you bringing in F-4 phantoms? Sounds like you’re derailing the argument. I’ve used almost every fox 1 and fox 3 this game has to offer and I’m better at them, I’d say I am a better authority of missile performance than you.
Not only did you statshark improperly, you then lied about the vehicles I played? Thanks, you just proved that you’re full of shit.
So I literally replied again to YOU explaining my mistake and correcting it. And you are still using that to distort the convo. You’re acting in bad faith again.
Sorry, I admit that I didn’t notice the kurnass, I was just looking for the F-4J and nothing poped up, then I searched phantom, nothing poped up.
Anyway, you didn’t touch the F-4J, yet you are here making stuff up about it. Nor did you touch the F3H-2
No. It was due to the convo that started by you saying wrong stuff about the sparrows.
Then the thread started having all kinds of sparrow discussion, the tornado, phantom etc. Is it my sole fault now?
Did it change the original post that you stated, hard fact, that there were more disadvantages to slats? No? Exactly.
There’s nothing to make up. The speed advantages are negligible. It’s a hard fact. I don’t need to play a vehicle to understand established conventional wisdom. Again, if these so called benefits are so negligible, why is the F-4E regarded as the best fm phantom and not the F-4J or F-4EJ?
No. You started by mentioning phantoms benefits in regard to a tornado, a plane i initially mentioned because it carried a sparrow variant.
No, but you acting like you’re on topic when you’ve spent the last few dozen posts talking about the 12.0 F-4s is.
I do not have to touch the F3H to make a statement that the AIM-7C hard, solid in-game data outperforms the old AIM-7E in every way. It’s the same way I don’t have to touch the AV-8B+ harrier to know it’s one of the worst 13.0 in game.
I also do not have to play the F3H to point out that the 60% increase in player KD performance might have something to do with the missile changes, which was the only relevant change brought to the F3H recentlly:
“hard fact”
It’s obviously the FGR.2, no one knowledgeable about the Phantoms regards the F-4E as the best one.
Now if we ignore the FGR.2 and FG1, then the F-4E is arguably the best, and I also agree. I never said otherwise. The F-4S is worse than the F-4E FM since you need the gunpod, and its not a straight upgrade over the F-4J. It’s worse at supersonic speeds, and more agile under 900kph. But overall still slightly better. But effectively a sidegrade, depends on the playstyle you want.
Where? Or is this another bad-faith comment?
You made the statement that all sparrows could not be rolled.
Which I assumed it wasn’t exactly what you meant because I don’t argue in bad faith like you. I assumed you said that at least AIM-7E-2 and better could not be rolled. Or did you actually mean that even the 7C could not be rolled? I assumed that was not the case, hopefully.
Well… it’s not true because the AIM-7E-2 can be rolled quite consistently.
Also, the AV-8B+ is not one of the worst 13.0 in-game, lol, it is quite mediocre, though. But I don’t want to bring it even more offtopic.
You can’t even do a image comparison properly (one plane is redlining) and expect this to be some sort of awesome retort? Come on. Max speed is when one plane redlines and one doesn’t? We ignoring that planes can go faster in dives now?
It’s not. It only beats the F-4E in dry thrust. Gameplay wise it still pulls less AOA and has to lug a gunpod around.
You arguing about the F-4J/S the last few dozen posts? Have some self awareness.
I pointed out that sparrow rolling was fixed, and from my own experience, people did not roll my 7E2/Skyflash DF like yours did. Other players have noted as such. So either you’re making it up, or your own personal experience is an outlier.
I’m of the opinion that you gave sparrows bad launches then blamed “rolling” when it was defeated kinematically. Like yeah, it being impossible to roll the way it was in the past does not prevent you from bleeding it out of energy with maneuvers similar to a sparrow roll. That still isn’t a sparrow roll.
AHAHAHA c’mon.
Altitude similar
Acceleration similar, close to 0m/s^2, so they are at their top speed, not accelerating or decelerating.
Climb rate similar, close ot 0m/s, so they are at level flight.
Throttle similar, 110%
One is redlining into near wing rips speeds why? Shoud it be that MAYBE because it’s faster? What else could it be I wonder?
Yes I was arguing off topic along with you, I never excused myself. So again you are making stuff up.
Wow it has slightly higher thrust while have the same rip speed, and its like, not even that much faster…
I love how I pointed out multiple times that this speed difference makes almost no practical gameplay purposes but you seem to think that it does.
Also, a static image doesn’t show anything. What if you simply airbraked or slowed down while being at that fuel amount? Almost like static pictures are bad evidence.
That’s what we call excuses buddy. “No I didn’t start it you did” “Oh the thread went all sorts of way its not my fault!”
Bad faith again. You were the one saying I was derailing the topic, which you also took part off and are acting like you didn’t.
I’ll stop here because it’s clear that my point was made and you are just acting in bad faith. AIM-7E-2 and lesser sparrows can be rolled, F-4J is faster but less agile than F-4S. That’s all.
You were, by talking about F-4J/S for the last 20+ posts.
Oh unlike you I’m more than happy to admit I go off topic all the time.
Same guy who went “You never played a phantom!!!” so confidentally earlier. No, just because you apologized or feel guilt did not change that you clearly acted in bad faith here.
They cannot. You gave bad launches that were defeated kinematically which seemed like rolling. Bleeding out a missile is not the same as rolling it at its peak energy state.
What is this meant to show?
Two things, 1. Most people including me are factoring BR into this statement, there is no point in FGR being better even if you think it is, since it still faces gen4 where as F-4E faces primarily gen3 opponents. 2. No true scotsman
The AIM-7E-2 can be rolled when launched head-on into a target at any range. (low altitude obviously)
I tested this in pure head-on aspect on the fastest AIM-7E-2 carrier (J37D), which also has the best radar in that range (all aspect PD)
Be it from 10km, 5km, 3km… much less than that and the missile doens’t even pull much.