not since late 22- 2023 when i started playing. i got to 10.7 with the FRS.1 rather early on so not in the last 3.5 years has the plane been deemed at meta within the circles i was in before finding this rendition of the forum
One correction, the FGR.2 has 90 countermeasures, 60 normal + 30 large, with double pop, so effectively 45
Whereas the F-4J and F-4S have 60 normal with double pop, so effectively 30 and without the added bonus of some large.
So the FGR.2 is actually better on that regard too.
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This isn’t saying much given F-4S players are dumb as rocks and often carry way too many bombs for a single base.
Which is still barely any at 12.0 compared to the F.3’s 150 something pops. The point stands that the better fm doesn’t do much if the kit limits it.
you cant split them 50/50 so you have 44 charges of both and then a single charge of flare or chaff.
still better than the american ones. but i dont believe CM count was ever the primary concern with phantoms
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Not the case. There is a pretty significant difference in dogfighting capability. It also doesn’t make sense to buff something that doesn’t actually help the plane all that much in its matchmaker while removing things that would help it more. I addressed all this earlier.
I don’t think I can say what I want to say here on the forum
in a DUEL sure, in AIR RB the F-4E is superior
Those would sit even behind the F-4S frontrunners. Regardless, the slatted versions are noticeably draggier in similar conditions.
Slats advantage:
1- Higher instantaneous turn rate at slower speeds and tighter turns.
2- more fun!
Slats disadvantages:
1- Slightly lower turn rate/G overload at high speed due to increased weight.
2- More drag, so less top speed.
3- Less TWR due to increased weight
4- Worse energy retention.
5- Worse sustained turn rate.
Not really? Pulls more AOA regardless of speed.
Negligible. We talking within 5% difference.
See previous point
Yeah about that…
Genius! I have to try that in every single jet with a similar configuration. Sometimes it can make the difference.
But off the top of my head i’m not remembering any other jet that I have been playing with that configuration and is cursed with 2 pop
i just split the K/Ms large and standards 50/50 with 2 extra normal flares as honestly the calibre doesnt really make a difference ive noticed.
its not the weirdest ive seen. Buccaneer S.2b can split 50/50 but only the last shot of countermeasures will drop a single flare and chaff as thats all thats left.
wish there was more control over which dispenser had what so that you could have flares fire a certain direction more often ( i dont like when flares fire upwards, would be super handy for AV-8B NA )
It does for some hotter jets. Large calibre is better at dealing with IRCCM. For you typical non IRCCM, it doesn’t make a difference for most jets yeah.
cutting burner and popping a couple works no matter tbh. only see 9m on a few planes, mostly A-10s and they arent the most competent players so its no biggie.
honestly most of my air deaths have been guns or NE death bubbles. or RVV/R77 from the SU-30MKK spam. IR missiles being stuck in the early 80s makes them not much of a threat tbh
Never mind what I’ve said, I was thinking the F-4J had the same weight as the F-4EJ but it is actually the same as weight the F-4S (empty weight). The difference between the EJ that doesn’t need gunpod and the F-4S/F-4J with the gunpod would make it even more drastic
So they pull about the same at high speed, and the F-4S has a tiny rate advantage at slower speeds.
So the only downside between the F-4S and F-4J is the drag/lower top speed.
On another note, StatShark is often inaccurate, so I don’t rely on it.
You keep downplaying how much slats give you
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It is around 0.3-0.4deg/s of sustained rate advantage. That’s what I meant. The slats will give more instantaneous turn rate below 800kph or so as expected.
I’m saying they are sidegrades. The F-4S is better in a dogfight, the F-4J is faster. The differences between both attributes aren’t massive
less than 5% difference in thrust with the same top speed limits is not faster. Considering the slats give better pull and handling performance across the board, the F-4S is a straight upgrade.
And no. Them both “pulling the same” at compression speed doesn’t mean anything. You don’t spend the whole match flying that fast.
a ~13% improvement in turn rate across the board is pretty big. Bigger than the loss of 5% in acceleration, which can be mitigated by bringing one minute less of fuel.
There is a reason why the F-4E have long been considered the nicest to fly of all the phantoms, even though the slatless F-4EJs being right there.
that would really only affect acceleration. Even the most powerful phantoms with speys arent reaching much higher mach numbers out of brute force, but they will leave a GE engine phantom in the dust off the line there is no competition there.
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Drag. The slats make the wings more draggy. Thrust is almost the same. Speed limits are not a factor since neither can rip the wings in a straight line.
With the gunpod at sea level:
F-4S: 1325 kph
F-4J: 1402 kph
They rip the wings only when over 1458 kph (IAS)
The premium F-4S is slightly better than the F-4J all things considered, I agree, but its not a big difference in practice. Also the F-4S will have trouble running away from a bunch of jets that the F-4J won’t, and neither are particularly good dogfighters so sometimes speed is better.
Ok, now tell everybody what else they give you besides SUSTAINED turn rate
And this does matter
Already did multiple times, instantaneous turn rate, and drag
They aren’t. The F-4S is just better