F3H-2 need to go up to 9.7

[HighRiskNoReward]

@John_Do2002

Only on the deck, which you shouldn’t be at.

Brother, its at every altitude. How hard is it to understand? You don’t even have the F-4J why are you making such statements?

You never played ANY phantom lmao

@John_Do2002

It’s the same engine. Why would two identical, copy pasted engines have different thrusts?

How did you come up with that? They have different names and slightly different static thrust ratings in the game. That alone indicates that they might be different. Like I said, I also though they were the same since I never noticed that detail, only after you mentioned thrust.

The static thrust for both jets when ramming them into a building are:

F-4S - 8040 kgf per engine
F-4J - 8063 kgf per engine

So at static, they have an irrelevant difference really

At mach 1 they have a 100kgf difference. At higher speeds, it should be higher. But all things considered its still irrelevant and they are practically the same engines, as we assumed. But technically different.

The engine difference is so small that it alone doesn’t justify the difference in top speed and acceleration post mach. That’s due to drag differences like I repeatedly said.

@John_Do2002

They can be opened manually through combat flaps.

They can, if you want to compress the jet even more and get an even worse turn rate as the result. Those slats only open automatically from 900kph and lower for a reason.

Its clear to me that you don’t know what you are talking about.

@John_Do2002

Also, suggesting that slats somehow not a net benefit is what I meant by contradicting established conventions.

Would be great if you stopped acting in bad faith.

I never said they were not a benefit. They serve their function to provide more lift in high AoA turns, all I’ve been explaining to you is that the different wing has its downsides too.

@John_Do2002

Except most of the time if you’re on the deck and a mig-21 is on your tail you usually won’t be at top speed.

In a merge, he would have to turn around, in the F-4J you can just keep going and reset whenever convenient. Regardless, this was just an aleatory example to say that top speed matters.

@John_Do2002

You find the idea of a phantom being at lower speeds bad but not a phantom being on the deck?

You want to teach me how to play the jet you never did?

@John_Do2002

Its a marginal difference that is less noticable the higher you go in altitude

Wrong.

At 4000m their top speeds with a gunpod are:
F-4S: 1614kph
F-4J: 1703kph

The higher you go, the bigger the difference it will be.

@John_Do2002

Being on the deck actively restricts your situational awareness while making you very vulnerable to top down attacks. There’s a reason why being on the deck and multipathing is widely looked down upon.

That’s besides the point I was trying to make.

If you are running away, which was the situation I was talking about when staying on the deck, by climbing you are just asking to die to any SARH carrier.

To be honest, I don’t know why we are arguing. You never played a single phantom. You don’t have authority on the subject.

You also never touched the F3H-2, so your comments about the missile performance hold little to no weight. I don’t even know why you are on this thread.

[John_Do2002]

@HighRiskNoReward

Brother, its at every altitude. How hard is it to understand?

… Its not though? All phantoms have roughly the same max speed at alt.

@HighRiskNoReward

You never played ANY phantom lmao

Nice try. But I do. If you bothered Statsharking at least do it properly.

@HighRiskNoReward

They have different names and slightly different static thrust ratings in the game.

They are basically identical for gameplay purposes.

@HighRiskNoReward

Its clear to me that you don’t know what you are talking about.

But the guy who thinks playing it at low alt at 12.0 is?

@HighRiskNoReward

Would be great if you stopped acting in bad faith.

you literally made a post earlier stating that there are more disadvantages to slats. Bad faith? This is your own words.

@HighRiskNoReward

To be honest, I don’t know why we are arguing. You never played a single phantom. You don’t have authority on the subject.

Blantant lies? A phantom is literally my 2nd highest played plane.

@HighRiskNoReward

You also never touched the F3H-2, so your comments about the missile performance hold little to no weight. I don’t even know why you are on this thread.

So then why are you bringing in F-4 phantoms? Sounds like you’re derailing the argument. I’ve used almost every fox 1 and fox 3 this game has to offer and I’m better at them, I’d say I am a better authority of missile performance than you.

Not only did you statshark improperly, you then lied about the vehicles I played? Thanks, you just proved that you’re full of shit.

[HighRiskNoReward]

@John_Do2002

you literally made a post earlier stating that there are more disadvantages to slats. Bad faith? This is your own words.

@HighRiskNoReward

Never mind what I’ve said, I was thinking the F-4J had the same weight as the F-4EJ but it is actually the same as weight the F-4S (empty weight). The difference between the EJ that doesn’t need gunpod and the F-4S/F-4J with the gunpod would make it even more drastic

So they pull about the same at high speed, and the F-4S has a tiny rate advantage at slower speeds.

So the only downside between the F-4S and F-4J is the drag/lower top speed.

On another note, StatShark is often inaccurate, so I don’t rely on it.

So I literally replied again to YOU explaining my mistake and correcting it. And you are still using that to distort the convo. You’re acting in bad faith again.

@John_Do2002

Blantant lies? A phantom is literally my 2nd highest played plane.

Sorry, I admit that I didn’t notice the kurnass, I was just looking for the F-4J and nothing poped up, then I searched phantom, nothing poped up.

Anyway, you didn’t touch the F-4J, yet you are here making stuff up about it. Nor did you touch the F3H-2

@John_Do2002

So then why are you bringing in F-4 phantoms? Sounds like you’re derailing the argument.

No. It was due to the convo that started by you saying wrong stuff about the sparrows.

@John_Do2002

The current 7C outperforms the old 11.0 7Es and they patched the sparrow roll, fyi

Then the thread started having all kinds of sparrow discussion, the tornado, phantom etc. Is it my sole fault now?

[John_Do2002]

@HighRiskNoReward

So I literally replied again to YOU explaining my mistake and correcting it. And you are still using that to distort the convo. You’re acting in bad faith again.

Did it change the original post that you stated, hard fact, that there were more disadvantages to slats? No? Exactly.

@HighRiskNoReward

Anyway, you didn’t touch the F-4J, yet you are here making stuff up about it.

There’s nothing to make up. The speed advantages are negligible. It’s a hard fact. I don’t need to play a vehicle to understand established conventional wisdom. Again, if these so called benefits are so negligible, why is the F-4E regarded as the best fm phantom and not the F-4J or F-4EJ?

@HighRiskNoReward

No. It was due to the convo that started by you saying wrong stuff about the sparrows.

No. You started by mentioning phantoms benefits in regard to a tornado, a plane i initially mentioned because it carried a sparrow variant.

@HighRiskNoReward

Then the thread started having all kinds of sparrow discussion, the tornado, phantom etc. Is it my sole fault now?

No, but you acting like you’re on topic when you’ve spent the last few dozen posts talking about the 12.0 F-4s is.

@HighRiskNoReward

Nor did you touch the F3H-2

I do not have to touch the F3H to make a statement that the AIM-7C hard, solid in-game data outperforms the old AIM-7E in every way. It’s the same way I don’t have to touch the AV-8B+ harrier to know it’s one of the worst 13.0 in game.

I also do not have to play the F3H to point out that the 60% increase in player KD performance might have something to do with the missile changes, which was the only relevant change brought to the F3H recentlly:

[HighRiskNoReward]

@John_Do2002

There’s nothing to make up. The speed advantages are negligible. It’s a hard fact.

“hard fact”

@John_Do2002

why is the F-4E regarded as the best fm phantom and not the F-4J or F-4EJ?

It’s obviously the FGR.2, no one knowledgeable about the Phantoms regards the F-4E as the best one.

Now if we ignore the FGR.2 and FG1, then the F-4E is arguably the best, and I also agree. I never said otherwise. The F-4S is worse than the F-4E FM since you need the gunpod, and its not a straight upgrade over the F-4J. It’s worse at supersonic speeds, and more agile under 900kph. But overall still slightly better. But effectively a sidegrade, depends on the playstyle you want.

@John_Do2002

No, but you acting like you’re on topic

Where? Or is this another bad-faith comment?

@John_Do2002

I do not have to touch the F3H to make a statement that the AIM-7C hard, solid in-game data outperforms the old AIM-7E in every way. It’s the same way I don’t have to touch the AV-8B+ harrier to know it’s one of the worst 13.0 in game.

You made the statement that all sparrows could not be rolled.

Which I assumed it wasn’t exactly what you meant because I don’t argue in bad faith like you. I assumed you said that at least AIM-7E-2 and better could not be rolled. Or did you actually mean that even the 7C could not be rolled? I assumed that was not the case, hopefully.

Well… it’s not true because the AIM-7E-2 can be rolled quite consistently.

Also, the AV-8B+ is not one of the worst 13.0 in-game, lol, it is quite mediocre, though. But I don’t want to bring it even more offtopic.

[John_Do2002]

@HighRiskNoReward

“hard fact”

You can’t even do a image comparison properly (one plane is redlining) and expect this to be some sort of awesome retort? Come on. Max speed is when one plane redlines and one doesn’t? We ignoring that planes can go faster in dives now?

@HighRiskNoReward

It’s obviously the FGR.2

It’s not. It only beats the F-4E in dry thrust. Gameplay wise it still pulls less AOA and has to lug a gunpod around.

@HighRiskNoReward

Where? Or is this another bad-faith comment?

You arguing about the F-4J/S the last few dozen posts? Have some self awareness.

@HighRiskNoReward

You made the statement that all sparrows could not be rolled.

I pointed out that sparrow rolling was fixed, and from my own experience, people did not roll my 7E2/Skyflash DF like yours did. Other players have noted as such. So either you’re making it up, or your own personal experience is an outlier.

I’m of the opinion that you gave sparrows bad launches then blamed “rolling” when it was defeated kinematically. Like yeah, it being impossible to roll the way it was in the past does not prevent you from bleeding it out of energy with maneuvers similar to a sparrow roll. That still isn’t a sparrow roll.

[HighRiskNoReward]

@John_Do2002

You can’t even do a image comparison properly (one plane is redlining) and expect this to be some sort of awesome retort? Come on.

AHAHAHA c’mon.

Altitude similar
Acceleration similar, close to 0m/s^2, so they are at their top speed, not accelerating or decelerating.
Climb rate similar, close ot 0m/s, so they are at level flight.
Throttle similar, 110%

One is redlining into near wing rips speeds why? Shoud it be that MAYBE because it’s faster? What else could it be I wonder?

@John_Do2002

You arguing about the F-4J/S the last few dozen posts? Have some self awareness.

Yes I was arguing off topic along with you, I never excused myself. So again you are making stuff up.

[John_Do2002]

@HighRiskNoReward

One is redlining into near wing rips speeds why? Shoud it be that MAYBE because it’s faster?

Wow it has slightly higher thrust while have the same rip speed, and its like, not even that much faster…

I love how I pointed out multiple times that this speed difference makes almost no practical gameplay purposes but you seem to think that it does.

Also, a static image doesn’t show anything. What if you simply airbraked or slowed down while being at that fuel amount? Almost like static pictures are bad evidence.

@HighRiskNoReward

I never excused myself.

That’s what we call excuses buddy. “No I didn’t start it you did” “Oh the thread went all sorts of way its not my fault!”

[HighRiskNoReward]

@John_Do2002

That’s what we call excuses buddy. “No I didn’t start it you did” “Oh the thread went all sorts of way its not my fault!”

Bad faith again. You were the one saying I was derailing the topic, which you also took part off and are acting like you didn’t.

I’ll stop here because it’s clear that my point was made and you are just acting in bad faith. AIM-7E-2 and lesser sparrows can be rolled, F-4J is faster but less agile than F-4S. That’s all.

[John_Do2002]

@HighRiskNoReward

Bad faith again. You were the one saying I was derailing the topic,

You were, by talking about F-4J/S for the last 20+ posts.

@HighRiskNoReward

which you also took part off and are acting like you didn’t.

Oh unlike you I’m more than happy to admit I go off topic all the time.

@HighRiskNoReward

you are just acting in bad faith.

Same guy who went “You never played a phantom!!!” so confidentally earlier. No, just because you apologized or feel guilt did not change that you clearly acted in bad faith here.

@HighRiskNoReward

AIM-7E-2 and lesser sparrows can be rolled

They cannot. You gave bad launches that were defeated kinematically which seemed like rolling. Bleeding out a missile is not the same as rolling it at its peak energy state.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@HighRiskNoReward

“hard fact”

What is this meant to show?

@HighRiskNoReward

It’s obviously the FGR.2, no one knowledgeable about the Phantoms regards the F-4E as the best one.

Two things, 1. Most people including me are factoring BR into this statement, there is no point in FGR being better even if you think it is, since it still faces gen4 where as F-4E faces primarily gen3 opponents. 2. No true scotsman

[HighRiskNoReward]

@John_Do2002

They cannot. You gave bad launches that were defeated kinematically which seemed like rolling. Bleeding out a missile is not the same as rolling it at its peak energy state.

The AIM-7E-2 can be rolled when launched head-on into a target at any range. (low altitude obviously)

I tested this in pure head-on aspect on the fastest AIM-7E-2 carrier (J37D), which also has the best radar in that range (all aspect PD)

Be it from 10km, 5km, 3km… much less than that and the missile doens’t even pull much.

[John_Do2002]

And I’m supposed to believe your word for it because…? That’s not even getting into how this run in contradictory with the majority of players using sparrows post buffs.

[HighRiskNoReward]

AIM-7F was fixed, not possible to roll in usual conditions anymore. No one said the 7E-2 was now also impossible to roll, you just made that up in your head.

The changes were essentially:

-All sparrows buffed kinematically

-AIM-7F/M/P can’t be rolled anymore.

[John_Do2002]

7E2 literally has the same G pull as the F/M/P… so you’re just making things up. Again, I’m genuinely convinced that you are associating kinematically defeating a missile to rolling it because you associate it with these shorter range sparrows, despite 7E2 pulling the same as 7F.

There is nothing wrong with saying a missile is kinematically defeatable. But it is not the same as a sparrow roll.

[HighRiskNoReward]

@John_Do2002

7E2 literally has the same G pull as the F/M/P

It has? Show me your new made-up “facts” I’m curious

@John_Do2002

There is nothing wrong with saying a missile is kinematically defeatable. But it is not the same as a sparrow roll.

I’m saying the AIM-7E-2 can be “sparrow rolled” when it’s at its best energy state in a head-on shot at lower altitudes.

Next time it happens I’ll remember to save the replay. But I won’t be playing more today

[John_Do2002]

@HighRiskNoReward

I’m saying the AIM-7E-2 can be “sparrow rolled” when it’s at its best energy state in a head-on shot at lower altitudes.

Yeah and I’m saying given that only you have this issue, its clear that you are associating kinematically defeating them to rolling.

[HighRiskNoReward]

Rolling in this case = kinematically defeating them because they cannot pull enough G’s to hit the target. By the way, they pull nowhere close to what it says on the stat card.

I had a recent match but it isn’t the best of examples because it was not a perfect head on.

But I launched at 3.7km range at very high launch speeds and the missile hit about 2700 km/h when it crossed the target which evaded without even needing to do a full roll, just like a quarter roll.

So, I know this isn’t the best example, but the missile didn’t turn/react enough at the roll, could be an autopilot issue, or just tracking delay.

I had a bunch of mig-21/J-7D/F-5 easily rolling away from perfect head-on launches where I was flying at close to 1500km/h in the Viggen.

I also rolled a couple of dogfight sparrows myself, but I rarely get targeted by these the way I’ve been playing with the viggen.

I don’t have those replays but I’ll try to remember next time it happens

[CofCof]

@John_Do2002

7E2 literally has the same G pull as the F/M/P

But diff tracking delay 1s for aim-7E2 make insane a difference a short distance

[J_ackal]

Played 2 more games after a week. 1st: 9.7 match team full of harriers, ace and win.

2nd game full downtier 6 kills and win