F/A-18 ruined 11.7

[HighRiskNoReward]

@An_Pigeon

It also has a severe lacking of CM’s last I checked only has about what 50 flares?
I mean has a boatload of chaff, same as all top tiers as well.

CM count on paper is a bit worrying on the rafale, on practice I never found it to be an issue. You can’t spam them like on the eurofighter but its good enough. F18C has the worst CM count since drops 2 per press with only 120 CMs.

@An_Pigeon

Definitely as I’ve said, not the best, the EF2000 has that as far as I know, the Rafale can pull insane AoA but it turns it into a falling leaf.

The eurofighter does everything better regarding manouvering, speed and acceleration. But the rafale is very close 2nd in all aspects but top speed, it rips at about 1450kph IAS and 101% afterburner with full load will surpass that speed. Probably 20-30% of my deaths in it was due to overspeeding in a shallow dive when busy with something else. Yesterday I killed 3 guys after ripping 1 wing…

@An_Pigeon

Mica as best A2A?? where?
aim120 is better
R77-1 is better
I think MICAs are down there with the Derby’s and darters.

Mica is the fastest missile within high PK ranges, and pulls by far the hardest. Its the best missile in the game plain and simple. I haven’t tried r-77-1 but I think those are the 2nd best.

I don’t like the aim120 very much, they are good for the proper wez jamming playstyle. But since you can notch missiles fired at your 12 at ranges as low as 6-7km in the most agile jets, the aim120 is sometimes the worst option to have.

@An_Pigeon

You keep throwing that out there without any actual factual statements to back it up.

I will also say the rafale is currently the best, feels like playing easy mode, its not just that it can carry 8 micas with a FM close to the eurofighter, but the radar is much better and is far easier to survive and thrive in the chaos.

The eurofighter radar keeps getting me killed because sometimes I push over the enemy unknowingly.

Another downside with the eurofighter is that if you are multipathing and want to shoot an aim120 you need to point your nose up and climb away from safety or the missile might hit the ground, the mica just pulls off the rail like a squirrel on crack.

[HighRiskNoReward]

The reason the F18A is at 12.3 is because the premium one has much better missiles and gaijin doesn’t want to put it at 13.0, or decompress BRs for that matter.

Having both at the same BR is a blatant PTW issue, both should be higher in BR but at 13.0 the F18C early gets overshadowed by the flankers and the fox3 slingers. 13.0 is the most compressed BR there is

A band aid solutions I would be fine with, is to give the premium one Aim9M and put it there. Then the f18A could move up to 12.7.

[Farlexgamer_psn]

@An_Pigeon

The EF2000 suffers in sim due to the place holder radar RN that is common knowledge.

It doesn’t

[Beeschurger]

@サラトガ

heavily nerfed already inconsistence radar R-24R

Last time i tried to fly 23MLA the radar wasnt even nerfed, it was borderline bugged, refusing to lock.

[An_Pigeon]

@HighRiskNoReward

Mica is the fastest missile within high PK ranges, and pulls by far the hardest. Its the best missile in the game plain and simple. I haven’t tried r-77-1 but I think those are the 2nd best.

Mica also lacks a lot of range compared to the aim120s as it blows itself out thrust vectoring.

@HighRiskNoReward

I don’t like the aim120 very much, they are good for the proper wez jamming playstyle. But since you can notch missiles fired at your 12 at ranges as low as 6-7km in the most agile jets, the aim120 is sometimes the worst option to have

The micas are incredible missiles, in close range.
However if you stay out of the MAR which you can do even in a the JAS39C with R darters them the rafale suddenly becomes less of a problem.

The ef2000 hell even f15e has caused me substantially more issues with the 120s as it puts you defensive long before you are within range. The mica is completely negated if you stay outwith its range, the R77-1 is I believe on par now with the Aim120.

@HighRiskNoReward

The eurofighter does everything better regarding manouvering, speed and acceleration. But the rafale is very close 2nd in all aspects but top speed, it rips at about 1450kph IAS and 101% afterburner with full load will surpass that speed. Probably 20-30% of my deaths in it was due to overspeeding in a shallow dive when busy with something else. Yesterday I killed 3 guys after ripping 1 wing…

So the EF 2000 is better in every regard in FM and speed? and only falls short on the radar department?

@HighRiskNoReward

I will also say the rafale is currently the best, feels like playing easy mode, its not just that it can carry 8 micas with a FM close to the eurofighter, but the radar is much better and is far easier to survive and thrive in the chaos.

That makes no sense, if the EF2000 as you say is better Fm wise, then how is it not easier to survive in the 16v16 chaos?

@HighRiskNoReward

The eurofighter radar keeps getting me killed because sometimes I push over the enemy unknowingly.

how even?
How are you flying over the enemy without knowing they are there…

@HighRiskNoReward

Another downside with the eurofighter is that if you are multipathing and want to shoot an aim120 you need to point your nose up and climb away from safety or the missile might hit the ground, the mica just pulls off the rail like a squirrel on crack.

That cause the MICA has thrust vectoring, which if you are in close engagements with, can use against it, if you get the rafale ( or anyother Thrust vectoring missile carrier) low enough speed it massively hampers the missiles launch and can cause it to basically spin out.
Unless they patched that but as far as ive seen, they haven’t.

[An_Pigeon]

@Daffan

1470kph speed means it beats pretty much every plane in a straight line and in a dive. It is limited by airframe not engine, so it’s acceleration is also godlike and climb rate both burst and sustained. 2x amazing radar missiles with MTI, who else has this SARH combo at 11.7 or below? JA37C but with worse missiles and other performance metrics (sustained turn etc)

To be fair to it, its top speed on teh deck is what 1.22? ish, however to attain that you have to go full swept wing and also take the time to dive / accelerate to it, in which time you lose almost all ability to manuevere like an 11.7 air craft and turn into a flying brick.

@Daffan

2x amazing radar missiles with MTI, who else has this SARH combo at 11.7 or below? JA37C but with worse missiles and other performance metrics (sustained turn etc)

I mean the MTi mode is incredibly situational its not as if its suddenly MTI, which can insta lock enemies, it also is a pretty sh*t radar overall.

@Daffan

72 CMS of Large in the best launch pattern where others are 20-45-60.

72CMs as well as more thrust so even sometimes an R60 or 9L will creep through (depending if you flare properly or not)

@Daffan

It will out turn 80-90% of enemies,

No it wont.
See this is where the argument falls apart to be able to turn with most enemies you sacrifice the ability to go fast
The FM changes mean even with a 65 percent wing sweep its still a struggle to keep up with stuff like the F4E or F5Es.

You can slam its wings to 85 and try bleed them of energy but this too has the drawbacks of you lose more dogfight capabilities.

@Daffan

That’s good than, because the MiG23 has the better airframe too!

An Pigeon:

Than what? specifically.

@Daffan

Like what?

WDYM like what? the F16A, mirage 2000C S4, the F20A last I checked.

The big thing you keep over looking is the fact that the Mig 23 sacrifices all other aspects of its FM to move fast, it cannot turn at all.

@Daffan

12.0

An Pigeon:

yeah realised that after I put it in that it was looking at GRB but wasn’t able to change it was teaching.

@Daffan

apart from gun quality + ammo, radar missiles / missile quantity, top speed/dive, accel, climb. Yeah and that’s only a 0.3 difference.

J7E has a better gun, less ammo. has 2 less but more reliable missiles/ and is far more controllable at its higher end speeds than the mig23M, ML and MLD.

@Daffan

notch against a plane that is both faster top speed, accel and turns better.

See, you keep adding these three together, when if you want the Mig23 to go fast you have to sacrifice its ability to turn, ive no idea why you keep acting as if its going mach 1.22 and can turn

[An_Pigeon]

It does genuinely refuse to lock ive had folks in thr mti mode, and on the shoot down aspect and refuse.to lock, acm, scanning and actively trying to get it to lock.

Its a nightmare to function ive had more luck with r60s over r24s.

The mig29 with the r27ers but is a totally different ballgame

@Farlexgamer_psn

It doesn’t

well folks tell me its suffering, in ARB ive reliably seen them rinse lobbies so its a hit or miss i reckon

[HighRiskNoReward]

@An_Pigeon

Mica also lacks a lot of range compared to the aim120s as it blows itself out thrust vectoring.

The extra range is not useful if your target has lots of time to react and notch. That’s why I said the mica is the best within high PK ranges, gives the less time to react.

@An_Pigeon

The micas are incredible missiles, in close range.
However if you stay out of the MAR which you can do even in a the JAS39C with R darters them the rafale suddenly becomes less of a problem.

The ef2000 hell even f15e has caused me substantially more issues with the 120s as it puts you defensive long before you are within range. The mica is completely negated if you stay outwith its range

MAR is irrelevant when you can reliably notch missiles. Furthermore I won’t be launching micas outside of the MAR to begin with. I can just fly sideways being defensive all the time with the rafale against a aim120 spammer and whenever he gets close I just HOBS a mica into him and keep notching. That’s doable with every modern fox3 except the aim120 itself.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@incongru

idk their missiles are actually easy to notch without losing too much speed

Based on…? Because the 7P is a IOG+DL missile and the hornet radar is the best at the BR with the smallest notch angles.

[LoL-LoL]

It has TWS+6 Sparrows and gets 11.7 games most of the time haha

[rezhin44]

personal anecdote so not worth much but i dont find them that hard to notch? idk maybe the people i play against pick really bad aspects

[Daffan]

@An_Pigeon

To be fair to it, its top speed on teh deck is what 1.22? ish, however to attain that you have to go full swept wing and also take the time to dive / accelerate to it, in which time you lose almost all ability to manuevere like an 11.7 air craft and turn into a flying brick.

Well other planes can’t even get there in a full dive from 10,000 meters so it’s going pretty good relatively.

@An_Pigeon

72CMs as well as more thrust so even sometimes an R60 or 9L will creep through (depending if you flare properly or not)

The 23 probably outruns the R60M without even having to flare tbh.

That’s kind of the amazing thing about it, the 23 cannot be pressured by 90% of planes. If an enemy turns into you and engages and let’s say they have the advantage in position (Behind, or 45-75’ to the side but behind coming in) and he is at 2.5-3km, they will never get closer due to their speed, so any firing window is non-existent.

You can actually mimic something close with the MiG-21Bis and F4E, the F4E is like 30-40kph faster, so unless the 21’ started within 2.4km it cant really fire any R60M’s. Basically you just run away for 5 minutes and they can never do anything.

@An_Pigeon

See this is where the argument falls apart to be able to turn with most enemies you sacrifice the ability to go fast

Who cares? The enemy is bleeding everything too but worse… you have best of both worlds. The F5E is great, but it will never catch the 23 in the first place. That’s why the plane is so oppressive, it can choose to out run, catch or turn in basically any scenario.

@An_Pigeon

WDYM like what? the F16A, mirage 2000C S4, the F20A last I checked.

Why do you keep supporting my argument by posting planes that are literally an entire BR above it.

The 2000C was the 23MLD in the past. It used to be 11.7 when F16A’s were 12.0. Now it is equal to them and even above the 9L slingers. Out run anybody, catch anybody and 2 auto kill missiles. Sounds familiar.

@An_Pigeon

See, you keep adding these three together, when if you want the Mig23 to go fast you have to sacrifice its ability to turn, ive no idea why you keep acting as if its going mach 1.22 and can turn

You seem to think that expanding the wings takes like 2 minutes roflmao and that the planes it is facing in 80% of battles are somehow amazing turners in their own right. Bonus points, If you have to notch you have already given up the position… it’s not a merge (they would win anyway) they already are starting from a superior position because you had to move around.

[An_Pigeon]

@Daffan

The 23 probably outruns the R60M without even having to flare tbh.

No it doesn’t.

@Daffan

Well other planes can’t even get there in a full dive from 10,000 meters so it’s going pretty good relatively.

Its doing okay but again you sacrifice its maneuverability and capabilities massively for speed.
Also likely to wing rip

@Daffan

That’s kind of the amazing thing about it, the 23 cannot be pressured by 90% of planes. If an enemy turns into you and engages and let’s say they have the advantage in position (Behind, or 45-75’ to the side but behind coming in) and he is at 2.5-3km, they will never get closer due to their speed, so any firing window is non-existent.

So play it like an f104 and have next.to no match impact.

@Daffan

You can actually mimic something close with the MiG-21Bis and F4E, the F4E is like 30-40kph faster, so unless the 21’ started within 2.4km it cant really fire any R60M’s. Basically you just run away for 5 minutes and they can never do anything.

Theres also 16v16 going on here.
Like im trying to say the mig23 isnt what it used to be at all, arguably the MLD could get a selector for mti and go to 12.0.

@Daffan

Who cares? The enemy is bleeding everything too but worse… you have best of both worlds. The F5E is great, but it will never catch the 23 in the first place. That’s why the plane is so oppressive, it can choose to out run, catch or turn in basically any scenario.

Are you intentionally being obtuse ?
The f4e has the same sustained rate as the smt.
Infact the f4e beats the MIG29 SMT in sustained rate, unless they updated the mig29 fms to reduce drag coefficients.

Even fully swept the mig 23 still doesnt just blow these planes away, if someone comes in maintaining mach 0.95 and forces you to maneuver at all, you bleed an astronomical amount of speed, unless you sweep your wings to about 65-80 degree area for beijg able to actually merge and fight affectively.

Going full wing sweep i only use for baiting people to chase.
Its not an effective way to play overall

@Daffan

Why do you keep supporting my argument by posting planes that are literally an entire BR above it.

12.3 is not an entire BR above it at all, you regularly see them, f18s and mig29s.

@Daffan

You seem to think that expanding the wings takes like 2 minutes roflmao and that the planes it is facing in 80% of battles are somehow amazing turners in their own right. Bonus points, If you have to notch you have already given up the position… it’s not a merge (they would win anyway) they already are starting from a superior position because you had to move around.

The wings doesnt take long to extend but they do cause you to have to actually slow down you cant go above mach 1.10 roughly below 80 degrees.

Which again turns the flogger into a delta over a capable dog fighter.

Im not saying mig23s are bad, but im saying theyre not some uber weapon folks seem to think they are 🤣

You also seem to be overlooking, mixed teams make it so even if you try to extend away theres always another Flogger near by.

Id 100 percent rather use the F4E or even the mig29 over the mig23 again, theyre spaded and left in the hanger.

[Beeschurger]

@An_Pigeon

No it doesn’t.

I wish, but R-60s tailchase ability is outright bad outside extremely close range

[An_Pigeon]

Unless the dudes just flitting past then he wont out run it.

If you are slotting in behind them like youre supposed to, the dude has two options, fly straight and take an r60 up the tail pipe.

Now mind you hed have to be going max speed before hand for it to not catch him.

And if he is going max speed like mach 1.22 then you wouldn’t have a chance to get a proper launch solution.

However, as I’ve stated above too many times.now on an F18 post, the mig23 sacrifices maneuverability for speed it cant have both now.

[Beeschurger]

@An_Pigeon

However, as I’ve stated above too many times.now on an F18 post, the mig23 sacrifices maneuverability for speed it cant have both now.

Oh im not disputing all that, i wanted to talk about R-60 specifically.

@An_Pigeon

Unless the dudes just flitting past then he wont out run it.

I personally wouldnt bother with R-60 launch at target thats beyond 1.2km unless i have massive energy advantage

[An_Pigeon]

@Beeschurger

I personally wouldnt bother with R-60 launch at target thats beyond 1.2km unless i have massive energy advantage

For some odd reason it appears to work at about 1.8 for me on the mig21 and up.

Might just be good launches though

@Beeschurger

Oh im not disputing all that, i wanted to talk about R-60 specifically.

An Pigeon:

Yeah R60s are a bit brutal to get used to, imagine mig29 had aim9G range IR missiles

[Beeschurger]

@An_Pigeon

Yeah R60s are a bit brutal to get used to, imagine mig29 had aim9G range IR missiles

Double rack for R-13M1s on Mig-23 would do it for me.

[An_Pigeon]

@Beeschurger

Double rack for R-13M1s on Mig-23 would do it for me.

Wouldnt mind that man sounds fun TBH

[Beeschurger]

Yeah provided the radar gets fixed id be prolly the best overall jet for that BR