Says who
Where did you pull that from?
If you read the 1974 report you will understand that wing overload is not the cause of the problem.
The problem was a control problem …
Hence the suggested 20g & 26 deg AoA limits with the incorporation of ERCL (Elevon rate command limiter) “to fully utilize the IH airframe’s 20g capability”.
Plus, you can see that even with 12g limit the missile was still not 100% reliable (as no missile is):
Thats what “statistically probable” means…
Thats a blatant lie, you’ve once again selectively ignored other portions of the report, and even quoted the sentence wrong.
ERCL is “necessary but not sufficient”
Which is why the part you misquoted says “near-full”, not “full” like you’re pretending it says.
The 20g limit mentioned is likely combined plane btw:
12g ± 2g single plane, 19.8g combined plane with a factor of safety of 30% to account for overshoot
Its possible its meaning 20g single plane, but thats definitly not what I’m understanding to be the actual single plane capability of the missile in the Sedjil’s configuration.
The 20g limit mentioned is likely combined plane btw
Pretty sure MiG_23M already explained that before if you want to scroll up
I’ve had MiG_23M blocked for months, so I didnt see it. Point still stands the sedgil should not be capable of pulling 20g’s in-game. Tho Sudo_su’s point of “reliability not being a factor in WT” is technically true, if a missile has a statistically significant chance of catastrophic failure when attempting to pull a certain level of G’s, that imo falls out of the realm of a “reliability” issue, and into the “structural/design limits” category.
If a plane could hit M2.8, but had a “statistically significant” chance of blowing up trying to do so, itd be limited to a top speed at which it didnt blow up yanno?
At the end of the day tho, like I siad, thats up to gaijin. Imo the report very much reads as “the I-HAWK (and therefore the sedgil in its current config) cant pull the desired 20g’s (single plane) without a good chance of breaking apart, structural and guidance changes are required to allow it to pull the 20g design limit (combined plane) of the missile”
It was originally designed with 14G in mind, but later in 1969, the target g requirements were raised from 3g to 6g and consequently commanded g and AoA were increased to 20g and 22 deg (which is what the missile went into production and operational service with and stayed until at least 1974.
Then there is this part, (as one of many suggested potential fixes in the initial 1973 report) suggesting limiting “commanded G” to 12, “which is what the structure was designed to accommodate”
And we know that the 12/14G value is the single plane design limit of the wings.
Meaning the missile autopilot actually pulls its (20g) “commanded g” in single plane.
And:
I.e. the autopilot is not capable of dual plane maneuvering, thus it cannot equally distribute the load on both pairs of wings. So:
1- “When pitch and yaw are limited” (e.g. The autopilot is trying to pull 5G in one axis and 10G in another axis), the forces are not “being distributed equally on both sets of wings”.
1- Only when the autopilot is trying to pull max G in both axes (i.e. “When pitch and yaw are not limited”, i.e. When the autopilot is trying to pull 20G in pitch and 20G in yaw), the forces are “being distributed equally on both sets of wings”
You can’t really compare plane reliability with missile reliability.
Now granted, even a lot of planes and tanks had reliability problems and limitations IRL that they don’t have in the game.
But with missiles and bombs, reliability failures are even more common. (especially if we are talking late 1960s and early 1970s)
OK “near-full” …!
Yes, as I said, there were some other modifications as well.
The point was that it was mainly a control problem. And the fact that the 1974 report itself says that I-Hawk’s airframe is 20g capable.
BTW, seems like Sedjeel missiles both with and without gapped wing modification existed:
With gapped wing:
Without gapped wing:
You didn’t read the document, stop butting in.
However, would sometimes command full elevon deflection to pull towards a target and had insufficient roll control. This meant that pitch-yaw-roll coupling would cause the missile to tumble and breakup on occasion. These issues were due to them not conducting more extensive analysis of the wing and the aeroelastic effects. All of this is covered in the documentation that everyone seems to be misreading now.
That’s not true.
That’s also not true, did you even read?
You have read, and continue to discuss my comments with others in discord. What is the point of telling people you have me blocked still?
SMH i swar man people in these forums can not read. It literally says “pitch and yaw planes” which is dual plane. So yes it can pull 20 Gs in dual plane but not single plane.
That doesn’t mean anything.
Every missile is gonna have pitch and yaw planes.
Dual plane means that the autopilot can maintain X configuration towards target’s plane of motion and use both sets of wings for both yaw and pitch.
The fact that it says that the loads are not equally distributed on both sets of wings, means the autopilot is not maintaining an X configuration relative to the target’s plane of motion:
It states that when pitch and yaw are limited (lowering AoA of fins from 22 to 15), the autopilot selects “+” axis for maneuver towards target vector rather than “X” axis. Previously, when pitching with full elevon deflection (in either pitch or yaw), it left no trim left for sufficient roll control.
… you didn’t read though, apparently.
Gave it some more thought and I think you might be right, majority of the report is discussing single plane, so not sure why that 20g stated would be combined plane. That being said, the Sedjeel in its ingame configuration would still be in the config that is statistically likely to fail if trying to pull more than its initially designed g-load, which i still consider to be beyond a “reliability issue” and as such should be limited to original design constraints.
Not to mention that the F-14AM is a massive balancing issue, and would make a lot more sense if its LRAAM’s were modelled on the lower end of their potential max G-pull, seeing as in its current state, or its current dev server state, the F-14AM should be thrown up to 13.0 MINIMUM, if not 13.3. Gaijin should have never added this plane to the game. It was shear stupidity.
I actually did. Amazing right?
Your statement makes it quite clear that you did not understand it, or did not take the time to actually read it.
The missile was fully functional, there were even suggestions to further increase AoA to 26° and some simple modifications rather than software change to future lots could have resolved the issue.
This isn’t a reliability problem, it’s just a suggestion to improve it. As far as I’m concerned, it’s still more reliable than the Sparrow or R-27 and yet those are in-game functioning 100% of the time … that’s because reliability is not a game feature.
The better way to balance it is to give the ordnance its’ real world limits (20G, 15-22° AoA) and balance it like all other aircraft in-game. By efficiency.
Seems like Sedjeel missiles both with and without gapped wing modification existed:
I.e. Fixes were also made to the Sedjil to remedy any reliability issues stemming from this.
Curiously, the pictures with gapped wing modification seems to be all / mostly when mounted on a plane, whereas the pictures without gapped wing modification are all / mostly with static display missiles.
“Initial design g-load” and “original design constraints” are irrelevant.
The project requirements were changed during development and it was finalized and went into production and service with these new parameters.
The “original design constraints” merely existed on paper or very early prototypes …
If anything it’s quite likely that ultimately, if things turned out as planned by the 1974 report, the missile was ultimately changed to 20g & 26 deg AoA with incorporation of ERCL and gapped wings.
I find it quite unlikely that the missile would constantly switch between X and + configurations depending on how much G/AoA it is pulling.
For one, there would be no reason to do so … If it has an autopilot capable of maintaining the X configuration relative to the target’s plane of motion, why would it ever leave the X configuration and switch to + whenever it’s not pulling max G/AoA?
I think what it means is that “when pitch and yaw are limited”, i.e. when it’s not pulling max G/AoA, “the load is not being distributed equally on both sets of wings”, not because it intentionally is using the + configuration, but rather because it doesn’t have the ability to maintain the X configuration.
When the autopilot is applying max pitch and yaw commands (i.e. Pitch and yaw is not limited) then it doesn’t really matter what configuration the missile is relative to the target, since it’s applying max elevons (minus a little bit of “reserve” that is supposed to be left for roll stabilization) … So obviously the load is going to be equally distributed on both sets of wings (as both sets of wings are going to be at their max load, at least as long as the missile hasn’t departed controlled flight) …
The missile autopilot will select which axis is closest to the target or switch to X if needed to allow high roll rates without instabilities, the elevons simply needed limiting so as to leave sufficient remaining tolerance for roll control.
Because to pitch with full force in a direction (it being AoA limited) it would need to use all elevons as opposed to two. In “+” configuration, provided AoA is not a limiting factor, the other two elevons can be used for yaw and roll control.
Using a combined guidance methodology will suit a missile far better than limiting it to one mode with drawbacks.
im iranian, almost nothing new has been added to the iranian f-14, so its the f-14a
radar, avionics, engines and other systems are the same with f-14a,
I’m American, the Iranian F-14AM is upgraded in all the ways actual sources have said it is. It’s known as the F-14AM when these upgrades are applied.
no upgrade has been spotted by me yet lol its very hard for mullah regime to upgrade this modern jet
