I think the fact that we can know the distance of a missile in the RWR from a relative scale is already OP as it is. It represents signal strength but in WT they all seem to have the same intensity so we can use that to judge range relatively accurately.
Maybe modern RWR/maws systems would be able to do it but we can use the old ones for that purpose too
I have no problems dodging these missiles with maneuvers in a short range head-on (even if it’s close sometimes but not close enough for the proxy to trigger). The MICA always hits directly (no proxy needed), so it’s not even close to a miss.
TVC is not only helpful for HOBS but to hit maneuvering targets as long as the motor burns as it can pull way higher AoAs independent of airspeed, which is my problem.
Exactly. You have to use the RWR to dodge if your MAWs hasn’t triggered. And that’s nearly impossible <10 km. Every missile is rather forgiving because of the 15° notch-angle, but the MICA has only 7° (not even half of the other missiles) so you have to be ±3,5° precise which is near impossible with that visualization currently ingame.
Im talking about 2-3km ranges, you wont out manoeuvre a derby and the warhead will explode in your nose.
Are you talking about gun ranges? I never encounter such situations because im putting myself at a very high risk of trade-off. Within 5-4km I will hobs and of that fails somehow I am trying to set up an overshoot and hope I don’t get aim9m’d in the process
If you are somewhat slow its still easily done, but if a mica caught you going mach Jesus while trying to notch you are probably dead
I’m talking about the 5 km range. In <2 km ranges you won’t outmaneuver any missile (if it’s already off the rails at that distance) except it’s an AIM-120 because it’s pull is so insanely sad and the delay between “off-rail” and “start maneuvering” is so long. No chance to hit anything with that missile at this distance if the target is maneuvering xD
5km range you can’t even outmanoeuver the aim120a unless you are already turning away and not going full head on
Oh you can. Just dip downwards a second before you pull hard up (you have to test a bit to find out the right timing). The dip will lead the missile downwards on an interception curse causing it to hard down, so it has to pull way harder upwards the moment you pull hard upwards, causing it to fly past below you. This way almost never lets me down, except you overdo it and rip your wings in ARB (or going against a MICA of course).
Most missiles have a problem if you turn into them at short distances while they’re flying on an interception course (RF and IR alike) as they like to overshoot under your plane.
I’ve seen that happen (against derby) even at 10km range and it seems to be a tracking bug.
Here the F16 dips down and then pulls to the side, the missile stops tracking for no apparent reason. Even though the F16 isnt doing extreme manouvers.
I need to test what you’ve said, maybe we’re up to something here.
Oh I didn’t mean they stop tracking. You can see them trying to pull towards you again the moment you pull up but miss as they physically can’t keep up by not being able to pull the nessecary AoA. It works against every missile (R-77 being the most difficult and MICA being impossible to defeat that way).
This is also difficult to pull off in some planes as the F-16 for example is really sluggish if you try to pull up right after a nose-down. The easiest are the F/A-18A/C as they have a really high AoA control and onset.
The missiles seem to also have a problem with overleading, could be related. Check the link to a different but related thread in that link I posted if you want.
Ah yes, watched the video now. It’s exactly like this only that the maneuver I do is vertical and not horizontal. Didn’t test if it also works horizontal until now ^^
But I can tell you, this maneuver works since years with the other missiles too and even IR missiles are defeatable this way.
I never tried because it seems counter intuitive and I use the roll and pull thingy as a last resort that works against some missiles like the aim7.
The instantaneous turn from like -5g to 10g+ might be causing some tracking bug it seems.
I’ll try that next time.
Interesting. For me it’s intuitive as I “lead the missile on” into a direction I will never be, effectively baiting it (throwing a feint).
I say counterintuitive because why should I pull 5G into one direction and 10 to the opposite when I can do 10G to one and roll into 10G to other instead?
Modern jets all roll quite fast except the flankers so I never thought of doing negative Gs for that
That’s the reason: Nearly no delay when changing directions. The EF is too slow when rolling from my experience. The F/A-18 can do it really fast but the roll costs time nonetheless in which the missile shortens the distance. Most of the time the 5G dive is quite enough.
I understand but at the same time you are leading the missile into a circle instead of a line that intersects your jet again on the transition, which one is more efficient will depend on speed and jet.
Regardless, a high manoeuvring missile within the booster phase should have no trouble intercepting the jet anyway, no matter which manouvers he tries.
Thats why I think theres something wrong with tracking/leading.
I’ve seen missiles overlead and then try a hard correction and sometimes fail to hit at the last second eve though the target isn’t doing anything crazy
I think the key is also that some objects have some sort of “sluggishness” when changing directions abruptly. If you have the F-16, do a nose down and pull immediately upwards. It feels so incredibly slow. The F-18 doesn’t really show this and the EF not to this extent. If missiles behave similar this could also aid the strange behavior.
This video shows the missile overleading and then not tracking while the seeker is pointing into the target.
And this one clearly shows the missile overleading and then try a last second correction but overshoots the target. (There is a small instance where the missile is notched but it relocks immediately, which made no impact on the course itself so ignore that)
The video links are broken in the quote, open the thread instead to play them directly
I looked through the video frame-by-frame the last few seconds before the miss.
The missile has minimal AoA (3-4°) while pulling continously nearly 20g. It doesn’t even try to pull harder so it’s not like it’s trying to correct the course at all costs. Is 20g the limit of the R-Darter? Funnily enough it shows TRK while in SRC mode shortly before the miss.
It is trying all it can (20g). Statcard max G is rarely reacheable in normal conditions
So it isn’t really a problem with overleading but rather it being physically outmaneuvered as it can’t pull any harder. I assume the calculated interception point for the first maneuver was correct and the corrected second interception point after the second maneuver wasn’t physically reachable anymore.
Maybe there’s a difference regarding flightpath control between ingame and reality, like the missile switching to “direct approach” instead of “interception” mode when close to the target and having enough energy reserves. Would make sense to me at least.