Does the F111F/C deserve to be 11.7 GRB

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
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Personally, it should be 11.3. It’s weaponry isn’t bad however, when compared to the competition, it does not compete. But what really makes it struggle is it’s flight model/performance. At the start of the match, you don’t reach mach speed quickly. In fact, by the time you reach mach 1, you’ll already be within 5-10km within the battlefield making it easy pickings for spaa.

Evading any missile, is out of the question because any movement will dramatically reduce you speed leading you to be even more easier target.

It’s weaponry is okay but with the platform it’s on, it’ll struggle. Regardless of what people might say about the mavericks, it is not a stand off weaponry, and needs to be used within the 5-10km range for it to be effective. I can list out more details why on this is the case but ask anyone that have extensively used the mavericks in top tier and most likely they’ll say the same thing. the GBU15, though has good tracking, cannot be used in long ranges because of the f111 flight performance.

There are ways that it can be competitive at 11.7 but it results in needing have better weaponry such as the popeyes or agm130 both of which can be used at stand off distances. But with the way things are, it’s just food for the pantsir and other spaa systems.

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They’re perfectly fine at 11.7.

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Can you explain your reasoning?

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Overall performance. Speed, thermal TGP, a lot of countermeasures, MAWS. Great loadouts, and for the 111F, great AGMs as well as the GBU’s.

Decent upgrades over planes like the 11.3 Tornado’s.

If you’re getting hit by SAMs trying to space climb to drop the laser guided bombs, then you need to be changing your strategy. Instead of space climbing, running low altitude, high speed attacks, popping up from behind the treeline or ridgeline.

Only use higher altitudes from further away to mark a point of interest in your planes SPI memory, and then using that point to align a low altitude run.

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Paper performance and realistic performance are two different things. Counter measures are irrelavent when all spaa can track and launch it’s missiles. MAWS only works from the rear (you are still flying blind if there are pantsirs). Mavericks as good weaponry in top tier is highly debatable. The same goes for the GBU (though this is mainly because of launch platform)

Tornadoes, I’m not too familiar but from looking at it’s ground weaponry, it doesn’t belong in 11.3. But the king at cas for 11.3 is the SU25T and maybe the SU24.

You make a good point of strategy however this mainly works for supersonic and maneuverable planes such as the f16. But lets say it is maneuverable, does the level of skill required for the F111 is about the same level of skill required for the SU25T? No, using the SU25T in a CAS role is significantly much easier than the F111.

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Countermeasures are very important, there are still a lot of IR missiles flying around, and a lot of smokeless ones like AIM-9M’s.

Which is one more hemisphere than no MAWS at all.

Mavericks are fantastic weapons, especially after the recent warhead buff.

Also fantastic weapons.

No, they’re fine at 11.3.

No, the king of 11.3 CAS is the Mirage 2K D-R1. The Su-25T/39 are fun, but not as good. And the Su-24 is cool looking, but also a bit worse than even the Su-25T/39.

No not really. Its just more fun to use.

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Tornado’s are correctly placed at 11.3 and F-111C/F are both likely correctly placed at 11.7.

Its probably more like the Pantsir isnt correctly placed at 11.7 (and a decompress of ground is needed) that is the issue more than anything else at the moment and whether the F-111 is 11.3 or 11.7 isnt really going to change that much.

F-111 though could be a bit OP to try to deal with in a 10.3 line-up (as is the Tornado, at least the Gr1) but the Tornados are weaker vs CAP than the F-111

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Let’s say in the future gaijin add AGM-142E Raptor/Popeye on RAAF F-111C from great britain tech tree. I predict increase battle rating for GRB to 12.3 or 12.7

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Unless you’re being targeted by an aim9l or any missile that has weak IRCCM, then any plane with countermeasures will work. All IR missiles in spaa can still track and hit you.

For CAS, MAW is only useful if you have full 360 coverage. Rear coverage will only protect you from rear attacks from planes carrying flare able aam.

Mavericks are good at the 10.0 to the 11.0 br bracket, not at top tier. Here’s why. The problem with maverick is that it loses significant speed. If the target is completely stationary, the maverick will hit, but as soon as it moves, the chance of hitting it reduces a lot. A byproduct of that issue is the time it takes to hit the target. Long range launches will take significant time. In that time, it can easily be shot down, target gets into cover, or target dies.

What makes the KH29 deadly isn’t the range. It’s the speed and explosive mass. It is a very reliable missile and that can knock out any vehicle. The maverick can pack a punch but it needs a direct hit center of mass and even that, sometimes fall pray to volumetric.

I implore you to use Mavericks at top tier

I can conceed on the argument that the Mirage would be the king however that doesn’t mean the SU25 is not a queen. The issue with that statement is you still have to prove why the F111F is better than these two when it comes to CAS.

It is easier to use the SU25T than the F111. You don’t face pantsirs, you can out-range any spaa (and hit them reliably which is why it’s better than the mavs), and you can more agms to spare. It’s a very flexible aircraft. You don’t have luxury this in F111.

It is fun to play the SU25 because it’s so easy to get a kill.

@Morvran

I don’t feel like replying again. so I’ll just say it here.

I can see your side of the argument and pareferable I would rather go with your idea, however my argument is that there are aircraft that are 11.3 (enjoying the benefits) while being equal or better than the F111F in terms of CAS.

US has a solid lineup at 11.3 the only issue is that it has no 11.3 CAS jet (not counting the av8). At 11.3 you have a chance not to face the pantsir and that in itself is a reason to play 11.3/

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No, when its comes to Flare Rejection missiles like MANPADS and AIM-9M’s, flaring as soon as the missile launches is highly effective. Even without maneuvering. It essentially breaks the missiles ability when to predict lead with the seeker rejecting flares when its not even on its lead path yet.

And even detecting missiles later when less effective, it still gives warning for you to manually counter them, by flying directly away from the missile, flaring and pulling in a tight barrel roll.

Very useful to have.

No, they’re fantastic missiles at top tier too. I do use them at high and top tier, quite regularly. The Harrier GR.7, JAS39A, F-5E FCU, Kurnass, F-16A MLU, AJS37. And soon to unlock them on the Kurnass 2000. Those are my current high/top tier planes, have the F-16AJ unlocked but not bought, and on the way down to the F-16AM as well.

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Its fun to play because its a low altitude, darting in and out of cover, kind of plane. More involved gameplay.

Pure GBU planes with thermal TGP’s are easier to use, but not nearly as interesting.

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Typing an essay down there?

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F111F at 11.7 F111C at 11.3,
After their RWR got upgraded,their rwr now is copy&paste the one on F111A.

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Not in my experience fighting the F111 and playing the F111. Majority of kills from the aim9m are side aspect and not directly in the rear. Even if it’s in the rear, because the f111 flies so hot even without afterburner, the aim9m can still track And again at top tier, you face spaa systems that can completely negate flares which is your biggest threat.

MAW does let you know if something is being launched however because it’s range of detection is low and the poor manuervability of the f111 dodging any top tier missile is not possible.

I’m not denying the fact the maverick are useless but it’s extremely is situational. How many of those maverick kills were done within the ranges of spaa. how many were shot down and how many did not hit the target because it looses it’s energy. My point is, with a competent spaa, shooting mavericks down is extremely easy.

Even with that being said, all the planes you mention have a good flight models, you don’t significant speed for small movement. the Kurnass while being 11.3 can carry pretty much the same load out while having a gun, aams, and a significantly better flight model.

There’s a certain way mavericks are supposed to be used in top tier or if there’s competent spaa players. That is sticking close to the ground, popping up, fire mavs, and going back down. All these aircraft can do that and can do it well. the F111 cannot.

TGP with thermals are good to have but, the only thing it does is target acquisition and nothing else. What makes the SU25T extremely good even if it doesn’t have thermals is because it has optics that are good enough to see targets 14+km away. And with it paired with the KH29, it can take out targets without even having the worry of being shot at by spaa.

You need to justify on why the F111F has a higher BR than the other 11.3 CAS aircrafts.

edit: nope, just writing whenever I have freetime

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That’s not how flare rejection missiles work. The temperature is irrelevant. When there’s flares inside their FOV, they shutoff the IR seeker tracking and instead predict lead based on the targets last known position and tracking rate+direction. When flares leave the seeker, the seeker starts IR tracking again.

So the key there is to flare while pulling in a barrel roll to get outside of where the missile predicts you will be.

Its not.

Almost all of them, not because it can’t be used outside, but because the closer you launch the less time they have to react. Pop up from behind cover, launch only a few kilometres away, and back behind cover before they even have time to react.

If the SPAA is already looking your way, you can ripple off a couple quickly for good measure.

And no thermals, or MAWS.

It can.

That’s exactly what the thermals are for.

Secondly, the targeting pod aspect gives excellent flexibility for firing and turning abeam against the opposing SAMs, while still being able to defensive fly and bleed the enemy missiles of energy.

Whereas for a very limited camera on the Su-25T, abeam is limited to flying at a specific roll angle to keep the bottom of your plane aimed at the enemy. Which means no defensive flying, no bleeding enemy missiles of energy.

And they can be shot down, same as the mavericks. The point is to use them much closer for less reaction times.

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Due to the F111F/C FM issue, I do not think they are worth at 11.7 in ARB, also for F111C, it is worse than f111f, which needs be 11.3 as well, F111F at 11.7 is fine, it has 6 agm56d

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Already did.

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You’re missing the point. Your initial argument was the MAW can save you without maneuvering. This is not true or at least doesn’t work effectively. flaring can help you prevent an initial lock but it won’t help you get out of a missile tracking you.

Dodging can help however, because the F111F is a brick, you cannot out predict the 9m. Even so 9ms are the least of your worries at this br.

You can’t just say that the no without giving proof. I’ve said my reasoning on why the mavericks are terrible from a “stand off” point of view. Thus it must be used within that short to medium range. If there is any spaa that can lock onto a maverick, it can easily be shot down.

reaction time (time it takes to get there) and the range of which it is fired is the same thing… It cannot be used outside of spaa range because it gives the enemy so much time that can it can easily be intercepted, looses track, or looses energy (if the target it moving).

The pop up/pop down tactic is situational and is dependent on the terrain. It’ll work in mountainous areas but in flat and open spaces, that tactic will not work. And again, is extremely risky when there are IR spaa systems out there.

You cannot do this because on the F111

  1. it takes a lot of time to reach supersonic
  2. you loose significant speed the moment you do any defensive movements

MAW is not an argument as it’s works only from the rear and not a full 180 rear. It is more like a narrow cone. Majority of deaths happen because spaa systems shoot you as you’re approaching the battlefield.

As for thermals, you pick your poison. Sacrifice, defensive armaments, maneuverability for thermals or you go for a well rounded air frame.

My point with the thermals is that it’s over hyped. Having a keen eye (looking for flashes, smokes trailes) can help you with target acquisition.

The TGP is helpful but the armaments and BR will dictate how you will use them. The SU25T is at 11.3. Spaa that poses a threat is the type 81 and asrad (can still be kill outside their range). The rest can be used well outside their ranges.

This means you can fire off 2 KH29TE outside any spaa range and because of how fast they are, it will be difficult for 10.3/11.3 spaa to shoot them down. The only time I’ve had it shot down was from a German spaa bus which happened once .

After firing you have 2 or 4 Kh25ml which have a 10km range. This mean you can fire outside of spaa range while still guiding it and even after the launch, your missile will still be faster and hit before theirs does. What is cool is you can loose laser lock and it will hit near the vicinity of the target.

the vikhr missiles are really good with going cqc. but it based on preference.

The SU25T does have a limited camera however because of it’s long range weponry for it’s BR, very few spaa will pose a threat.

You didn’t really justify why the F111F should be higher because all you talked about is the pros of the plane but not the negatives. When talking about a vehicles BR you talk about all it’s ups and downs, then compare it to the vehicles

It’s weaponry isn’t bad but because of it’s air frame using them effectively make it significantly harder

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It is true, for missiles launched close enough to be immediately detected by the MAWS. Already explained this, read it again.

You know that’s a thing with all the other AGMs in the game? Kh-29’s, Kh-38’s, PGM2000’s, AS30L’s, etc. They can be shot down too, so to have the best chance of success, you can ripple in pairs, or don’t fire them at maximum range and run a pop-up attack instead.

You don’t have to ripple at the same target, but having two in the air gives a better chance of at least 1 getting through air defences.

The thing is, a lot of players climb to orbit to fire off their mavericks. The enemy has time to see them on the radar, find them visually, and watch them for 30 seconds until they launch. They know exactly where the missile is. You’ve given them every bonus.

But if you run a pop-up attack, they have to find the missile post launch as it, and anymore you fired, are bearing down on them.

Rule Number 1, don’t make it easy for the enemy.

But somehow you think Mavericks are “unusable” and “situational”, which couldn’t be further from the truth.

No, not really, all you need is a treeline.

You don’t need to be supersonic to do pop-up attacks. Harrier GR.7, definitely not supersonic, does them all the same. The speed is mostly irrelevant, you get into position for an attack run faster, but for the attack run, irrelevant.

A good pop-up attack, at most you just need to pitch up and down to bleed enemy missiles of energy.

edit - crikey, all this wasted time because you seem to think F-111’s need to go down, which is just not true.

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The F-111F is amazing at 11.7, especially with its 6 AGM-65Ds or 4 GBU-15s.
The only problem is its slow speed form an air spawn, which isn’t too bad por say.