[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[SLHavoc]

First off, I didn’t say I wanted anything - I just mentioned that mixing the teams would be the definition of balance assuming that (as you admitted) you’re removing the advantages something has over something else.

I also have Russian top tier and don’t think Russian top tier MBTs are anything special. I think their qualities make them good in the hands of the average player, but NATO MBTs in the hands of an above average player are much better. Yes, Japan does have KH38s now too (which no one was asking for) but Japan also has VASTLY weaker SPAA to work in tandem with their CAS slingers to free up airspace, and they have to face SMSVs. The Japanese SU30 also has 11% of the games played in comparison to the Su30SM/Su30SM2 in February alone. And yes, while Chinese tanks inherit the Russian doctrine and improve it with extra mobility, they have weaker armor and poor reload speeds.

@Flanker_Thunder

i haven’t seen a single Su-30SM2 in GRB in my life, and the highest BR tank i have actually faces them in uptiers. i have RARELY died against a Kh-38MT or LMUR, so i don’t understand why so much hate against something that’s as rare as a M22 in 13.0.

The highest BR ground vehicle you have is the Rank 7 2A4M of which you only have 230 games in. The only other Rank 7/8 ground vehicles you have are Russian, so yeah, it’s not surprising that you don’t die to KH38s and LMURs when they’re generally on your team (if you’re even in a 13.0 game).

As someone who plays top tier constantly (including in a SU30 KH38 slinger), I see KH38s and LMURs almost every single game.

@Flanker_Thunder

it’s not balance, it’s hell. do u really really really see fair for players to have mixed teams? do u actually feel it’s somehow fair to have a nation facing itself? it literally ruins the advantages of that nation just cuz the one who’s requesting this “improvement” aims at the center of mass of a T-90M and says “oh! Russian Bias, my APFSDS didn’t pen it’s 1600mm UFP which is actually accurate to real life!” and has a huge skill issue against a nation which only good things are 1. a TD that’s bugged asf 2. a broken SPAA that shouldn’t have come to the game 3. innacurate jet fighters carrying A2G ordnance and 4. incorrect modelling of heli missiles making the only one with proper “lofting” be Russia by no reason.

Again, as above, I am not someone who thinks that Russian MBTs are some broken vehicle that outshines everything else. However, the 4 things you have listed as “good” are drastically better than the nations that don’t have them. The BMPTs have the highest win rate of all tanks all time, one of which is a premium. The Pantsir SMSV can standalone against multiple CAS vehicles AND still has the ability to fend off ground forces. The KH38s outclass everything else by miles while still being on a platform (x2) that can bring 6 of them AND up to 6 R-77-1s and 2 R-73s. The MI28 not only gets the best of the Heli FnF missiles, but it also has a laser accurate gun that allows it to take out air targets at 3-4km which generally makes it pretty strong against almost any CAP.

@Flanker_Thunder

the only thing that makes Russia “good” is the fact that developers don’t know how to model and program things. it’s not cuz Russia is “superior”, it’s cuz players are dumb and Gaijin doesn’t want to fix their mistakes.

I don’t understand how you can blame the players for this. Players didn’t design and implement these vehicles or come up with the stats. Players didn’t make the game, they just use the tools available to them.

@Flanker_Thunder

yeah but some people prefer to yap and bark about “a nation having better vehicles” cuz they’re bad at the game.
then the moment they touch the nation they hated for so long they regret about their decision.

Yes Russia has a high win rate at top tiers simply because other players are bad and don’t know how to play against Russian vehicles. It couldn’t possibly be that Russia has an overly strong lineup at those tiers with systems that outclass their respective nation’s capabilities that allow them to have multiple very strong options across the spectrum.

Again, remaining on topic, I don’t think mixed battles would be a fun thing, but by definition it would be more balanced. Would more balance be worth the decrease in fun? In my opinion - No. However, the imbalance is also not fun if you’re on the short end of the stick, so the real question is: Does the decrease in fun that mixing the nations at higher tiers amount to more or less than the fun that being on the negative side of the imbalance takes?

[Flanker_Thunder]

@SLHavoc

I also have Russian top tier and don’t think Russian top tier MBTs are anything special. I think their qualities make them good in the hands of the average player, but NATO MBTs in the hands of an above average player are much better.

thx god u think that.

@SLHavoc

Yes, Japan does have KH38s now too (which no one was asking for) but Japan also has VASTLY weaker SPAA to work in tandem with their CAS slingers to free up airspace, and they have to face SMSVs.

SM-SV should have never come to the game, it’s literally 2S6 in steroids, a lot of them.

@SLHavoc

The highest BR ground vehicle you have is the Rank 7 2A4M of which you only have 230 games in. The only other Rank 7/8 ground vehicles you have are Russian, so yeah, it’s not surprising that you don’t die to KH38s and LMURs when they’re generally on your team (if you’re even in a 13.0 game).

i mean, if i play Leopard 2A4M i should face Su-30SM2 in an uptier.

@SLHavoc

Again, as above, I am not someone who thinks that Russian MBTs are some broken vehicle that outshines everything else

again thx god u think that.

@SLHavoc

However, the 4 things you have listed as “good” are drastically better than the nations that don’t have them. The BMPTs have the highest win rate of all tanks all time, one of which is a premium. The Pantsir SMSV can standalone against multiple CAS vehicles AND still has the ability to fend off ground forces. The KH38s outclass everything else by miles while still being on a platform (x2) that can bring 6 of them AND up to 6 R-77-1s and 2 R-73s. The MI28 not only gets the best of the Heli FnF missiles, but it also has a laser accurate gun that allows it to take out air targets at 3-4km which generally makes it pretty strong against almost any CAP.

all this 4 things are innacurately implemented into the game so all Gaijin should do is fix them: Mi-28NM is not the only heli with missiles that have lofting/BMPT needs a correct damage model/all Flankers that aren’t Fullback never used Kh-38/Pantsir SM-SV technically doesn’t exists, it’s a prototype or smth, the only real thing is it’s missile.

@SLHavoc

Players didn’t design and implement these vehicles or come up with the stats

i mean, certain players are lucky enough to have their suggestions accepted and implemented within the game.

@SLHavoc

I don’t understand how you can blame the players for this. Players didn’t design and implement these vehicles or come up with the stats. Players didn’t make the game, they just use the tools available to them.

Flanker_Thunder:

most players are just extremely dumb and blame the game for the OP vehicles, when in reality is just their lack of experience.

a lot of people say T-90M is broken when they never used it, while things like M1A2 SEP V2 and Leopard 2A7V are way better.

[White-Phoenix]

People are so emotional, probably because of Terminator. The new Pantsir makes it worse. Terminators are so annoying.
One tracked me, broke my gun, and I just went AFK for a bit , went for a cigarette, met a girl, got married. After my baby was born, I came back to my PC… and it was still shooting at me.
It’s like you have to pray they kill you with ATGMs, or they’ll torture you forever. It’s just annoying.

[stangbro01]

🤦‍♂️ you are either completely illiterate or just a troll.

[Flanker_Thunder]

u still didn’t defend ur main argument of mixed teams being balanced in any way, u just said it like everybody knows the reason of why it’s a good idea and that’s all.

the original topic has extremely vague information from ur part and looks more like a rage topic cuz u got killed by a BMPT and then come to write it.

[Milashny_Koteyka]

I hate when such happends and you play against oneself. I like WT for that faction based gameplay.

[Mihaly_Mister_x]

@Flanker_Thunder

i mean, if i play Leopard 2A4M i should face Su-30SM2 in an uptier.

Russia and germany get paired together almost every single game…the reason you probably dont get kh38ed…

[Zannafrancy]

@Flanker_Thunder

used Kh-38/Pantsir SM-SV technically doesn’t exists, it’s a prototype or smth, the only real thing is it’s missile.

kh38mt is weird, but generally anybody in favor of it being in game(or existing really) are just doing it in bad faith, the one piece of evidence in support of a seeker being developed shows that it wasnt very good (80% hit rate in ideal testing scenario) + @tripod2008 interpreted some of the other info that was on that brochure but i cant really recall what he said on the matter, and there are other problems with this, like the fact that the missile seeker wouldve been image matching like in the aasm250 and a few cruise missiles, which means statit targets not moving tank sized targets. the seeker ingame is just the devs imagination.

as for the new pantsir? parts of it have been used to a degree like the radar and tbk 1055s, the radar is more common than the tbk’s, as for the new hypersonic hypermaneuverable pencils of death im not aware of any confirmed engagements made by that missile, so gaijin probably just took it at their word for it

[tripod2008]

@Zannafrancy

interpreted some of the other info that was on that brochure but i cant really recall what he said on the matter

Basically the seeker is terrible, it’s sensitivity is known to be worse than the WGU-10/B of the AGM-65D and assorted Missiles. And the required 4 kelvin difference in Contrast between the target and scene is massively more(15 grey levels) than ~.25 degrees (one grey level) required by the Maverick.

It’d basically only be good for attacking large industrial facilities and ships.

- YouTube

[tokerstar]

We already have boring and a unbalanced game in the name of realism… jets with many versions usually have 1 worth playing. Apply this to the full game and it leaves very few air vics throughout the full game that are not just coping. 45 CMs on this 13.7 F16 or 120 on this other 13.7 F16- isnt really a choice.

Mixed battles for ground looks like its the only way left to actually make the game fair

[Rigged_Thunder]

I think the uptier system also needs a major overhaul. It needs to be done in a senseable way though and there are a few ways this might be accomplished.
-Separate era’s of tanks, WW2 tanks should not be fighting cold war era tanks, the technology gap is extremely wide and being uptiered in your gaint hunk of metal with solid AP is beyond disadvantageous. If you want to suffer and bring a WW2 tank into cold war tanks or cold war into modern era, the player should be able to make that choice willingly and some players do it already to achieve god mode(or to be a troll).
-Reduce the uptier to .7 or .5 at minimum and further decompress ALL BRs, not just focusing solely on high/top tier only. This would really help to distinguish a vehicles capabilities and gives them a more accurate BR rating amongst nations. This also requires a MASSIVE rehaul of their maps, not just a few but ALL of them. Make maps made for WW2 eras, Cold War, Modern, etc. There is literally a handful of maps that do this but in a very simple way, usually by making the map bigger the more modern the era is. This also requires literally redesigning these already poorly thought out maps that are attempting to be a cookie cutter map, which is to fulfil a wide range of BRs and not caring about replayability. We all know how absolutely annoying it is to play the same map over and over even if it is just the ‘bigger’ version or a poorly made mode.

It just shows how outdated this game is becoming with its methodology especially now with the insane amounts of vehicles in the game. This game doesn’t even care about objectives, it’s just a circular spot to capture and then move on. There is a very limited functionality in the stategy aspect of this game with how it plays and favours a Deathmatch role instead.

[SadRIPer]

Helicopters:
EC-665 Tiger HAC/Tiger HAD Block 2/EC-665 Tiger UHT

Mode:
Ground RB

Proposed change:
12.7 > 12.0-12.3

Reasoning:

General Thoughts

• Only 8–12 FnF missiles
  • Compared to 16 missiles for AH-64E/Z-10ME (8 for Mi-28NM, but this one has a lot more avantages to it to counterbalance that)
• Limited maximum range:
  • 7–8 km
  • vs 16–25 km for AH-64E/Z-10ME/Mi-28NM
• No IRCM (infrared countermeasures)
• Slower climb rate than other helicopters
• HAC and UHT variants do not have a 20-30mm main cannon. Also, Mi-28NM’s main cannon is a lot more accurate than Tiger HAD Block 2’s main cannon, and other helicopter main cannons in that mater
• Tiger helicopter FnF missiles top-down approach is NOT as perfect as Mi-28NM LMUR’s

---

Missile Explosive Power

• Mi-28NM (LMUR)
  → 19.2 kg TNT
• Z-10ME (CM-502KG / Blue Arrow 11)
  → 7.7 kg / 6.3 kg TNT
• AH-64E (JAGM-MR)
  → 4.8 kg TNT
• Tiger helicopters (Spike ER)
  → 3.3 kg TNT
• German Tiger (PARS 3 LR)
  → 3.7 kg TNT

---

Air-to-Air Capability (same reasoning for SACLOS/Laser+IOG/Beam Riding Air-to-Ground missiles)

• Mi-28NM
  → 16 air-to-air missiles
• AH-64E
  → 4 missiles
• Tiger helicopters
  → 4 missiles
• Z-10ME
  → 16 missiles

N.B. : identical reasoning can be applied to the italian AH-129D, while keeping in mind it does have IRCM and 8 Air-to-Air missiles capability.

[lewstherintalmon]

The only bias I’d like to discuss is the lvl 100s being allowed to play bully at low br and drive new players out of the game. Why is this a thing?

[Normandy_Corsair]

Tired argument. People who have played the game for a while are also allowed to enjoy early war vehicles. Lots of older players started playing this game BECAUSE of the ww2 section of the game. They aren’t doing anything malicious. If you die to someone they just outplayed you

[lewstherintalmon]

And who said that all players can’t use all vehicles? A simple sbmm allows for that.

Maybe you don’t see a high lvl player getting his kicks by running new players away from the game as malicious, but I do. Growth pools are only health.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@lewstherintalmon

A simple sbmm allows for that.

sbmm makes all games worse that it touches

[Owl8NightVN]

Just because you don’t often see Leopard, Abrams, ZTZ, and Black Night tanks destroyed doesn’t mean they’re better than the T90 on the battlefield. The reality is much harsher than you think: drones, helicopters, missiles. And you know what’s most ridiculous, making me laugh at your stupidity? Both of your photos show tanks shot down by suicide drones or bombed, and you use that as justification for claiming Russian tanks are inferior in tank battles? If Abrams, Leopards, and Black Nights were so good, why did they only appear in the first year or two of the U-R war?

[lewstherintalmon]

The only players I’ve ever heard say that were the very same players bullying noobs out of the game.

Malicious intent? Look at your words. “If you die to someone they just outplayed you”. It’s almost like you’re boasting about ‘outplaying’ someone that just started. That’s evidence of malicious intent.

It’s ridiculous to even have to post this. It’s obvious. A lack of a sbmm only helps the people that are retarding the growth of potential paying customers.

[MiGoon_Fox-3]

@lewstherintalmon

A lack of a sbmm only helps the people that are retarding the growth of potential paying customers.

SBMM just isn’t possible in wt.
You can’t have two different ranking systems (BR and something like SBMM) working in tandem in a way that actually works
Especially when you include how the game is grinded as well as player counts.

(Stock high level player vs spaded high level players)

you also can’t forget that new players are fully aware that they’re buying their way to the top ranks in war thunder, a game without SBMM, without knowing a single thing about the new mechanics or how the game is played.

They should not be expecting the game to handhold this kind of behaviour, you bought your way up with 0 clue on how to play at that rank, expect to be bullied till you learn how to play.
Everyone goes through this, you’re not an exception. The game should not be giving you aid just because you knowingly put yourself into a situation which you should not be in

[MeanBROSofD72805]

Do this in the actual br changes thread bro 😭