[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

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@O_HOgameplay

it has bad gun handling,

Same gun handling as the 10.7 T-90A.

@O_HOgameplay

has no ERA

The armor is comparable to the T-90A, even with the Obj 292 not having ERA.

@O_HOgameplay

no MG

A lot of glass cannons don’t have MG’s.

@O_HOgameplay

reload time is awful

It’s mm of pen/sec is better than most of the Russian 10.0 tanks.

@O_HOgameplay

ready rack is small

It’s only 6 less than the T-90A, T-90M, or T72B-3 - and with the 695mm of pen of the 292 it is only lacking in the ballpark of 15% less penetration than the tanks mentioned: 695mm * 16 rounds = 11,120mm of pen, versus 12,760mm pen.

@O_HOgameplay

bad gun depression

It’s got more than the T-90A, and the same as the T-80U, T72B3, and T-80BVM. It’s literally only worse than the T-90M’s depression by a singular degree.

@O_HOgameplay

any hit that pens kills it

Yes, that is what should happen to a glass cannon.

@O_HOgameplay

no thermals.

A small debuff, I guess. Not worth lowering from 11.0 due to the insane penetration of its round and its armor would be too good for it to still be a glass cannon.

@O_HOgameplay

It is a glass cannon.

At 11.0 it would be, there’s literally no Br lower than 11.0 where most of the tanks would easily be able to pen it.

@O_HOgameplay

you need to know where to aim

If “knowing where you need to aim” includes every single spot on a tank that won’t ricochet, then I guess you’re right, but I doubt you meant that.

@O_HOgameplay

It is funny, taht you just say, that “best tank round in the game”, while rank per rank, this is the only russian/soviet tank that has the best round.

Does Russia have a better round than 3BM60 in service? I mean Russia also has some of the best armor in the game (and until the Leo 2A7V and Strv 122+ were added, they had the best), and Gaijin isn’t implementing the anti-ERA properties of M829A2 nor are they going to for M829A3 going off of the devblog on the Abrams.

@O_HOgameplay

You don’t deem to cry about the Ikv 103

It can’t pen literally every single tank in the game frontally, and it isn’t top tier. For the record, it is annoying.

@O_HOgameplay

the M-51

Most of the new artillery tanks have similar rounds while having better maneuverability, also I rarely ever see people talk about it.

@O_HOgameplay

chinese TDs with high pen dart and tandem ATGM with thermals, etc.

Which ones are those? Also a lot of Russian MBT’s get ATGM’s at similar BR’s to the ones I think you’re referring to while actually being a tank.

@O_HOgameplay

Do you remember when everybody was crying rivers about the Object 775 on the dev server?

What could possibly be unbalanced about a tank with a much smaller frontal profile with equivalent armor but a decently better ATGM being at the same BR as a ATGM tank with a much larger frontal profile and a worse ATGM (/s)?

@O_HOgameplay

The same way as Germany or USA.

I clicked on four random tanks from Tiers I through V in the US tree, so 20 tanks in total (about a sixth of the total amount in the entire tech tree, and I only looked at conventional tanks, not SPAA’s), and only one of them (the M22) had any type of APHE round.

I did the same thing with Germany, and only 1 tank (the Dicker Max) has an APHE round.

I did pick random tanks, so there might be more with APHE shells, but off of my random sampling only 5% of the tech tree (where APHE is actually seen commonly, which to my knowledge it isn’t past Tier V generally but feel free to correct me) uses APHE for both the US and Germany.

If you want to do the same with the minor nations you mentioned feel free, they likely have a decent amount of Russian exports in them so yeah wouldn’t be surprised if they had more APHE than the US or Germany.

[O_HOgameplay]

@SpeclistMain

Same gun handling as the 10.7 T-90A.

Worse.

@SpeclistMain

The armor is comparable to the T-90A, even with the Obj 292 not having ERA.

The ERA does a lot on the T-90A.
Plus any shell penning the turret will blow up the ammo rack in the back.

@SpeclistMain

It’s mm of pen/sec is better than most of the Russian 10.0 tanks.

Huh?

@SpeclistMain

It’s only 6 less than the T-90A, T-90M, or T72B-3 - and with the 695mm of pen of the 292 it is only lacking in the ballpark of 15% less penetration than the tanks mentioned: 695mm * 16 rounds = 11,120mm of pen, versus 12,760mm pen.

What mental gymnastics are you doing here? Why do you even multiply the pen by the ready rack size?
Guess what, the CM11 has 33*430=14190, so is it better than the Object 292?

@SpeclistMain

It’s got more than the T-90A, and the same as the T-80U, T72B3, and T-80BVM. It’s literally only worse than the T-90M’s depression by a singular degree.

Which is still bad. Those others have better survivability.

@SpeclistMain

A small debuff, I guess. Not worth lowering from 11.0 due to the insane penetration of its round and its armor would be too good for it to still be a glass cannon.

Ahm, no.

@SpeclistMain

At 11.0 it would be, there’s literally no Br lower than 11.0 where most of the tanks would easily be able to pen it.

In 10.0 too.

@SpeclistMain

If “knowing where you need to aim” includes every single spot on a tank that won’t ricochet, then I guess you’re right, but I doubt you meant that.

I did not mean that. Stop misrepresenting.
YOu have to know what part of the enemy you need to shoot.
You see a hulldown M1. Where do you shoot it?

@SpeclistMain

Does Russia have a better round than 3BM60 in service?

It does not mean anything. This is a tank that is not in service.

@SpeclistMain

It can’t pen literally every single tank in the game frontally, and it isn’t top tier. For the record, it is annoying.

And? it also has crazy pen for it’s BR, yet it is a pile of steaming hot shit.

@SpeclistMain

Most of the new artillery tanks have similar rounds while having better maneuverability, also I rarely ever see people talk about it.

There are many germany mains crying about it.

@SpeclistMain

Which ones are those? Also a lot of Russian MBT’s get ATGM’s at similar BR’s to the ones I think you’re referring to while actually being a tank.

PTZ-89, WMA, PTL, AFT.

@SpeclistMain

What could possibly be unbalanced about a tank with a much smaller frontal profile with equivalent armor but a decently better ATGM being at the same BR as a ATGM tank with a much larger frontal profile and a worse ATGM (/s)?

???

@SpeclistMain

I clicked on four random tanks from Tiers I through V in the US tree, so 20 tanks in total (about a sixth of the total amount in the entire tech tree, and I only looked at conventional tanks, not SPAA’s), and only one of them (the M22) had any type of APHE round.

I did the same thing with Germany, and only 1 tank (the Dicker Max) has an APHE round.

I did pick random tanks, so there might be more with APHE shells, but off of my random sampling only 5% of the tech tree (where APHE is actually seen commonly, which to my knowledge it isn’t past Tier V generally but feel free to correct me) uses APHE for both the US and Germany.

What tanks did you click on?

@SpeclistMain

If you want to do the same with the minor nations you mentioned feel free, they likely have a decent amount of Russian exports in them so yeah wouldn’t be surprised if they had more APHE than the US or Germany.

USA:

Germany:

Japan:

China:

Italy:

Ah yes, gotta love the false flagging when you have nothing to counter it :)

[aDSD]

@SpeclistMain

Same gun handling as the 10.7 T-90A.

Nowhere same optics, doesnt have thermals.

@SpeclistMain

The armor is comparable to the T-90A, even with the Obj 292 not having ERA.

Nowhere close.

@SpeclistMain

It’s only 6 less than the T-90A, T-90M, or T72B-3 - and with the 695mm of pen of the 292 it is only lacking in the ballpark of 15% less penetration tha

Will be a big thing in combat.

@SpeclistMain

It’s got more than the T-90A, and the same as the T-80U, T72B3, and T-80BVM. It’s literally only worse than the T-90M’s depression by a singular degree.

Still bad gun depression.

@SpeclistMain

A small debuff, I guess. Not worth lowering from 11.0 due to the insane penetration of its round and its armor would be too good for it to still be a glass cannon.

Small debuff is funny, by this logic lack of smoke grenades is a minor debuff too?

@SpeclistMain

Does Russia have a better round than 3BM60 in service?

Yes.

@SpeclistMain

It can’t pen literally every single tank in the game frontally, and it isn’t top tier. For the record, it is annoying.

292 is yet far from lol-penning every each tank.
It practically pens same areas other rounds can.

[MotorolaCRO]

@SpeclistMain

It’s mm of pen/sec is better than most of the Russian 10.0 tanks.

I actually chuckled when I’ve read “pen/sec”.
WT isn’t a form of MMORPG where you’re up against bullet sponge bosses and where DPS means a thing, as if you are holding LMB at all times and fire your next shot as soon as it’s ready.
3BM42 is already pretty strong at 10.0 and it looks like that 292’s round in most cases will be a complete overkill with a pretty nasty reload penalty attached to it.

“Oh look, 2C/Rad 90/90105/2K/(insert 90% of vehicles at around this BR), I’m sure my 700mm pen round will be needed here and I’m more than willing to trade 2.9s of reload for it.”

That being said, 292 could go up to 10.3 since it would change barely anything, but anything above that is simply too much.
T-90A looks to be a superior package overall.

[Xx8xX]

So what the point of Obj-120 sitting at 8.0 with APDS-FS that don’t work HEAT-FS that is unreliable and HE that have less TnT equivalent that 6.0 of other nations quite idiotic not to mention no stabilizer no laser and so on and is this same BR with Vidar ofc in some time Vidar will go up and Obj - AVRE and other Derp premiums will stay at 8.0 is the special predatory tactic of the company if they sell alot of them they will make them unblayable later so ppl buy new shining premium for 6 month

Shattered APDS from 152 mm gun in with 450+ pene at point blank on enemy tank with 79 armor value at straith line is idiotic the game engine need alot of twiks seems RNG based - if you go to DMG indicator this will never happent so game Full of RNG and idiotic comparison they do chances based on Si-Fiction and the game become worst that WoT with the RNG

[Emperororca]

If you want something unplayable try the conqueror. Obj-120 is still effectively a railgun at 8.0, lolpens everything.

[Xx8xX]

The point is the game should tweak the game mechanics and other values on paper other if the enemy moves something is happening with the calculation of armor value the game makes the armor value so high that even a well-aimed shout on the weak spot makes the shell shatter or bounce incredible stupid and wrong but they so-called Fix cosmetic issues and try to put more RNG idiotic chances making the game pure Monty Python series

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This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[O_HOgameplay]

@SpeclistMain

No, both have 14.3 degrees per second of traverse.

Gun handling is both horizontal and vertical. The 292 has worse vertical.
Don’t be dishonest.

@SpeclistMain

Long story short the Obj 292 has comparable protection to the T-90A up until it faces 11.3 BR rounds, and as a glass cannon it should be easily penned (so moving to 11.0-11.3 makes sense based off of its armor). Just showing the one front hull weakspot on the Obj 292 and shooting at the mantlet (when all mantlets in War Thunder are weak) is a bit disingenuous, as well.

There is a bigger area where the diverer’s port can be penned. It will result in a oneshot.
The mantlet is also weaker, with a giant ammo rack behind it, that you can not remove. Penning there will blow up the tank, which does not happen with the T-90A.
It also lacks ERA, which greatly improves the armor, especially against HEAT type warheads, which is the stock ammo of pretty much any gun tank at that BR (except UK and Sweden).

@SpeclistMain

Guess what, the Object 292, T-72’s, and T-90’s are all Russian tech tree MBT’s that are all above 10.0 BR with APFSDS rounds in excess of 120mm. The CM11 is a 9.3 BR Chinese MBT with a 105mm gun, lol. I was comparing like with like, the exact same thing you were doing with bringing up the ready racks of Russian MBT’s above 10.0 BR with APFSDS rounds above 120mm.

What was the reason of multiplying the 2 numbers? It means nothing.

@SpeclistMain

Nice argument lol.

No argument needed for that. You think that having no thermals is not an issue. It significantly reduces a tank’s effectiveness, especially when it has bad armor and a longer reload.

@SpeclistMain

No? The first rounds that can easily pen the Obj 292 appear at 10.7, and those are either on only Russian MBT’s or only two Chinese MBT glass cannons.

You shoot the exact same spots on every russian MBT. And in case of the 292, even 8.0 tanks can pen those parts.
Yes, it is good to just LOLpen the front, but even with those shells, a reasonably good player will still aim for those spots.

@SpeclistMain

Since when were we looking at only hull-down tanks lol?

You know what an “example” is, right?

@SpeclistMain

When a 10.0 Russian MBT can pen all rounds in the game and has barely more frontal weakspots than a 11.7 Abrams

Can pen all rounds? What?!

@SpeclistMain

What do you mean? If there isn’t a better round for Russia then that’s that, and Russian MBT’s get access to better rounds than any other nation at 10.7 with the 3BM60.

So what? I don’t get what do you mean.

@SpeclistMain

First one is an 8.7 tank destroyer with no armor with a 443mm pen ATGM, meanwhile the T-62M-1 is an MBT with actual armor and a 600mm pen ATGM at 9.0. Second one is a similar deal, a light tank at 9.0 with a 750mm ATGM, the T-62M-1’s only disadvantage there is the lack of pen in the ATGM. The third one doesn’t have ATGM’s. Fourth is a 9.0 tank destroyer again with no armor, this time it can only shoot ATGM’s.

Congrats! They are glass cannons!

@SpeclistMain

More like I should use the GIF lol:

APC is not APHE
APCR is not APHE
APCBC is not APHE

Just because the "“HE” part is not written, they are still APHE, since they have a high explosive filler.

@SpeclistMain

I’m not bothering to do Germany since that took so long, but yeah APC, APCR, and APCBC are not APHE shells lol.

You lack the essential knowledge of the game dude.

[SlowHandClap]

I admire your patience.

Dude really just used chat GPT as a source.

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Draft response written Saturday:

@O_HOgameplay

Gun handling is both horizontal and vertical. The 292 has worse vertical.
Don’t be dishonest.

And a good amount of the maps at top tier are nearly completely flat and/or are in cities.

I also wasn’t being dishonest; I’d test driven the Obj 292 and it didn’t feel much different than the top tier Russian MBT squadron vehicle that I test drove a while ago in terms of vertical gun handling.

Additionally, I tested the vertical traverse of the Obj 292 and T-80UM2 (I don’t have top tier Russia so I was guessing at different test drive URL’s and was able to guess the T-80UM2’s correctly) by aiming at the bottom of the wooden pole to the left of the crosshair in the image below, starting a timer while simultaneously aiming (the smaller crosshair showing where the barrel will end up) at the lower of the two top cross-beams.

For the T-80UM2 it took 5.58 seconds (I also tested the T-80UK because I forgot it existed and got 5.68 seconds), and for the Obj 292 it took 6.60 seconds, so about an 18% decrease in vertical speed. It is worse, but not really sure how much it will effect gameplay due to the aforementioned lack of maps with huge changes in elevation.

The pole I'm talking about

It has explosive filler,

@O_HOgameplay

What was the reason of multiplying the 2 numbers? It means nothing.

Comparing similar rounds of similar types of vehicles. A lot of tests/theorums/evaluations apply to specific circumstances, like implicit solutions to functions which only apply locally.

@O_HOgameplay

No argument needed for that. You think that having no thermals is not an issue. It significantly reduces a tank’s effectiveness, especially when it has bad armor and a longer reload.

The T-80UM2 has no thermals lol and it’s 11.0. Again, the armor of the Obj 292 is not bad even at 10.7 - I mean it just seems like you want to ignore how I showed that the armor of the Obj 292 is only similar to a glass cannon at 11.3. Again, it also can just straight up do more DPS than any Russian MBT before 10.7.

I mean why are you saying “What was the reason of multiplying the 2 numbers? It means nothing,” while also saying “It significantly reduces a tank’s effectiveness, especially when it has bad armor and a longer reload.”

So does the reload matter or not? I am literally just showing that despite the slower reload of the Obj 292, it literally is barely affected because it does similar levels of damage as the other Russian MBT’s at 10.0 and 10.3. The issue is that the Obj 292 can also lolpen everything in the game, which the Russian MBT’s at 10.0 and 10.3 cannot. If my comparison doesn’t matter then the reload doesn’t matter.

@O_HOgameplay

You shoot the exact same spots on every russian MBT. And in case of the 292, even 8.0 tanks can pen those parts.

This isn’t an argument. If the penetration values of only the weakspots mattered then there should be no round in the game higher than like 400mm of pen at top tier, let alone at lower tiers.

The Obj 292 having similarly sized weakspots to the T-90A is literally an argument that the Obj 292 should be moved to a higher BR than the T-90A. A glass cannon should not be as survivable as the average tank it its BR.

@O_HOgameplay

Yes, it is good to just LOLpen the front, but even with those shells, a reasonably good player will still aim for those spots.

Saying good players will still have good aim doesn’t mean anything. The Obj 292 doesn’t need to aim much at all (essentially all it has to go is not shoot at places that will eat the rounds regardless or will ricochet, like the tracks or heavily angled armor) to do massive damage.

@O_HOgameplay

You know what an “example” is, right?

An example of what? That the M1A2 SEPv2 should be at the same BR as the T-90A because of it’s massive frontal weakspots?

@O_HOgameplay

Can pen all rounds? What?!

Wow a single typo, couldn’t just swap one word out to get what I was saying.

@O_HOgameplay

Congrats! They are glass cannons!

Yes, and the Obj 292 literally is not a glass cannon until it gets moved to at the very least 11.0 if not 11.3. Wow, thanks for agreeing with me, I don’t know why you’re arguing against the Obj 292 moving to 11.3, though (/s).

@O_HOgameplay

Just because the "“HE” part is not written, they are still APHE, since they have a high explosive filler.

Parts of response from today, Feb 7th:

Alright I’m back now, I got very sick over the course of Saturday and Sunday.

There are tanks with APCBC with HE filler in them in the American tech tree, but that filler takes up a much lower percentage of the mass of the shell - between an extra ~60% to ~100%. Russian APHEBC also does not have the standard cap, yet their ricochet values are the same as US APCBC. The very small difference in the performance of Russian APHEBC and APBC is very suspect, for example the APHEBC round BR-350B (MD-8 fuse) is at only a 3% penetration deficit while weighing the exact same amount as the APBC round BR-350P while also putting 100.1g of TNTeq into the round.

[O_HOgameplay]

@SpeclistMain

I also wasn’t being dishonest; I’d test driven the Obj 292 and it didn’t feel much different than the top tier Russian MBT squadron vehicle that I test drove a while ago in terms of vertical gun handling.

You only talked about the horizontal drive, which is the same, and conveniently forgot to talk about the vertical, which is different. So you were being dishonest.

@SpeclistMain

Comparing similar rounds of similar types of vehicles. A lot of tests/theorums/evaluations apply to specific circumstances, like implicit solutions to functions which only apply locally.

And it has no additional value of multiplying the penetration of the round with the ready ammo count.

@SpeclistMain

It’s only 6 less than the T-90A, T-90M, or T72B-3 - and with the 695mm of pen of the 292 it is only lacking in the ballpark of 15% less penetration than the tanks mentioned: 695mm * 16 rounds = 11,120mm of pen, versus 12,760mm pen.

@O_HOgameplay

What mental gymnastics are you doing here? Why do you even multiply the pen by the ready rack size?
Guess what, the CM11 has 33*430=14190, so is it better than the Object 292?

@SpeclistMain

Guess what, the Object 292, T-72’s, and T-90’s are all Russian tech tree MBT’s that are all above 10.0 BR with APFSDS rounds in excess of 120mm. The CM11 is a 9.3 BR Chinese MBT with a 105mm gun, lol. I was comparing like with like, the exact same thing you were doing with bringing up the ready racks of Russian MBT’s above 10.0 BR with APFSDS rounds above 120mm.

105 is closer to 125, than 152 to 125 btw.

@SpeclistMain

The T-80UM2 has no thermals lol and it’s 11.0.

It has a better overall gun, has much better armor, hard kill APS, commander override, HMG, and does not have a giant, unprotected ammo rack in the back of it’s turret.

@SpeclistMain

I mean why are you saying “What was the reason of multiplying the 2 numbers? It means nothing,” while also saying

Because multiplying the ready rack ammo count with the penetration means nothing.

@SpeclistMain

while also saying “It significantly reduces a tank’s effectiveness, especially when it has bad armor and a longer reload.”

Because it is.

@SpeclistMain

So does the reload matter or not?

It does. And i did not say it does not matter. If you think i said that, feel free to quote the exact line!

@SpeclistMain

am literally just showing that despite the slower reload of the Obj 292, it literally is barely affected because it does similar levels of damage as the other Russian MBT’s at 10.0 and 10.3. The issue is that the Obj 292 can also lolpen everything in the game, which the Russian MBT’s at 10.0 and 10.3 cannot.

It has a not of disadvantages compared to them. I already told you.

@SpeclistMain

If my comparison doesn’t matter then the reload doesn’t matter.

You comparison is BS, and meaningless.

@SpeclistMain

The Obj 292 having similarly sized weakspots to the T-90A is literally an argument that the Obj 292 should be moved to a higher BR than the T-90A.

That is just dumb. It has bigger weak spots.

@SpeclistMain

A glass cannon should not be as survivable as the average tank it its BR.

It will not be.

@SpeclistMain

Saying good players will still have good aim doesn’t mean anything. The Obj 292 doesn’t need to aim much at all (essentially all it has to go is not shoot at places that will eat the rounds regardless or will ricochet, like the tracks or heavily angled armor) to do massive damage.

You still need to know where to shoot. YOu might LOLpen any tank’s turret you see, but it means nothing if you shoot the wrong side, only kill the loader, and in return, you get 1shotted.

@SpeclistMain

An example of what? That the M1A2 SEPv2 should be at the same BR as the T-90A because of it’s massive frontal weakspots?

Yep, you don’t know what an example is.

@SpeclistMain

Yes, and the Obj 292 literally is not a glass cannon until it gets moved to at the very least 11.0 if not 11.3. Wow, thanks for agreeing with me, I don’t know why you’re arguing against the Obj 292 moving to 11.3, though (/s).

Because it will be a glass cannon.

@SpeclistMain

There are tanks with APCBC with HE filler in them in the American tech tree, but that filler takes up a much lower percentage of the mass of the shell - between an extra ~60% to ~100%.

They are still APHE.

@SpeclistMain

The very small difference in the performance of Russian APHEBC and APBC is very suspect, for example the APHEBC round BR-350B (MD-8 fuse) is at only a 3% penetration deficit while weighing the exact same amount as the APBC round BR-350P while also putting 100.1g of TNTeq into the round.

Using TNTeq istead of the charge mass already shows that you know nothing about the topic you talk about.
The penetration value is affected by the filler mass, not the equivivalent.
Calculator with russian shells:

Spoiler

BR-350B

BR-350SP:

96.6/99.16/0.974

US 75mm

Spoiler

Normal M61:

M61 without filler:

103.96/106.37=0.977

[eqS729gYidXuT2BN]

@O_HOgameplay

You only talked about the horizontal drive, which is the same, and conveniently forgot to talk about the vertical, which is different. So you were being dishonest.

Being dishonest by not mentioning a difference in vertical handling of 18%, when you have been saying the Obj 292 has bad mobility when it literally has a 26% better power-to-weight ratio than the T-72’s at 10.0 and better mobility than everything in the T-72 line besides a single vehicle?

@O_HOgameplay

And it has no additional value of multiplying the penetration of the round with the ready ammo count.

@O_HOgameplay

Because multiplying the ready rack ammo count with the penetration means nothing.

@O_HOgameplay

Because it is.

@O_HOgameplay

It does. And i did not say it does not matter. If you think i said that, feel free to quote the exact line!

@O_HOgameplay

You comparison is BS, and meaningless.

You were saying the low amount of ammo in the ready rack was a bad thing, and the only way you could mean that is by saying that more ready rounds = vastly more damage before having to restock the rack. All I did was show that this was not true, and that the difference between the damage the Obj 292 can do with its 16 ready rounds is roughly equivalent to the tanks at 10.3 and 10.0, so it is not lacking.

You: less ready rounds = less damage

Me: less ready rounds, but much better penetration and post-pen damage = same damage as other 10.0 and 10.3 tanks, so it is not lacking

@O_HOgameplay

105 is closer to 125, than 152 to 125 btw.

And this is supposed to matter because? The CM11 isn’t Russian nor does it have a 120mm+ cannon. I said 120mm+ because what Russian MBT has a cannon less than 120mm that is within even a single decade of the T-72?

@O_HOgameplay

has much better armor

Um, no???

M833 Protection -

T-80UM2 Protection Against M833 (387mm pen, BR 10.0 round) @ 500m

Obj 292 Protection Against M833 (387mm pen, BR 10.0 round) @ 500m

M900 Protection -

T-80UM2 Protection Against M900 (513mm pen, 11.0 round) @ 500m

Obj 292 Protection Against M900 (513mm, 11.0 round) @ 500m

The thing would only be barely weaker than the hull and would actually have a noticeably weaker turret if the Obj 292 was moved to the same BR as the T-80UM2.

@O_HOgameplay

That is just dumb. It has bigger weak spots.

@O_HOgameplay

It will not be.

I suggest you actually go and look at the proof I provided in this message: [Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings - #215 by SpeclistMain

@O_HOgameplay

Because it will be a glass cannon.

Nothing before 10.7 can pen it outside of it’s weakspots, which are either the same size or smaller than other Russian tanks at 10.0. That is not a glass cannon.

Comparing the Obj 292 to the T-80UM2 only makes the hull have a low possibility of penetration and the turret finally have a larger weakspot if moved to 11.0 does not mean it’s a glass cannon.

Glass cannons should have very weak defense/armor, not literally comparable to tanks 0.7 BR above them and only moderately worse a full BR above them.

@O_HOgameplay

You still need to know where to shoot. YOu might LOLpen any tank’s turret you see, but it means nothing if you shoot the wrong side, only kill the loader, and in return, you get 1shotted.

That doesn’t have anything to do with the Obj 292, though. When shooting the same place with the Obj 292 versus literally any other APFSDS round in the game will result in the Obj 292 doing more damage.

@O_HOgameplay

Using TNTeq istead of the charge mass already shows that you know nothing about the topic you talk about.

Notice how I said “putting 100.1g of TNTeq into the round,” not “putting 100.1g of TNT into the round.”

If you’ve got data saying they use different types of filler than cool, but until then yeah I’m just going to assume there isn’t a large difference in the filler mass.

[O_HOgameplay]

@SpeclistMain

when you have been saying the Obj 292 has bad mobility when it literally has a 26% better power-to-weight ratio than the T-72’s at 10.0 and better mobility than everything in the T-72 line besides a single vehicle?

Yeah, compare it to the slowest vehicles in the game. You know, a Churchill tank also has better mobility than a T95, yet both are slow.

@SpeclistMain

and that the difference between the damage the Obj 292 can do with its 16 ready rounds is roughly equivalent to the tanks at 10.3 and 10.0, so it is not lacking.

No. You will miss, and not kill tanks with 1shot, also there could be shots that get eaten by volumetric.
16 rounds in a slow autoloader is not a lot.

@SpeclistMain

Me: less ready rounds, but much better penetration and post-pen damage = same damage as other 10.0 and 10.3 tanks, so it is not lacking

No. See reasons above.

@SpeclistMain

And this is supposed to matter because? The CM11 isn’t Russian nor does it have a 120mm+ cannon. I said 120mm+ because what Russian MBT has a cannon less than 120mm that is within even a single decade of the T-72?

You did not say that initially.

@SpeclistMain

The thing would only be barely weaker than the hull and would actually have a noticeably weaker turret if the Obj 292 was moved to the same BR as the T-80UM2.

It has no ERA, meaning the driver’s port weakspot is bigger and weaker.
No ERA on the side ->much worse armor, especially at an angle.
Very weak mantlet with an ammo rack behind it → any shot penning there will kill the tank, unlike on the others.

@SpeclistMain

Nothing before 10.7 can pen it outside of it’s weakspots, which are either the same size or smaller than other Russian tanks at 10.0. That is not a glass cannon.

That is just blatantly false.

@SpeclistMain

any other APFSDS round in the game will result in the Obj 292 doing more damage.

And you can wipe your a** with it if you shoot the worng place that ends you being dead, because the tank still has a breach and/or a commander.

@SpeclistMain

Notice how I said “putting 100.1g of TNTeq into the round,” not “putting 100.1g of TNT into the round.”

Which is still crap. You can get that equivivalent with a lot of ways, them ranging from having less actual mass to actually having more mass than the TNTeq.

@SpeclistMain

If you’ve got data saying they use different types of filler than cool, but until then yeah I’m just going to assume there isn’t a large difference in the filler mass.

Do you have these things, called, “eyes”?
If yes, do you have this cool ability, called “reading”?
If still yes, then check ammo statcards.

[TinQQ]

Someone do something for german planes. Every plane seems way out of place in BR.

First I was flying the 1945 Me-163 B-0 against some 1980s MiG-21’s and what not. Thought that OK this is only a temporary thing. But after that I got the CL-13 9.0 and 9.3, which are also CONSTANTLY flying against 10.3 enemies. I have started disconnecting every battle in which I see a 10.3 plane at start before spawning plane. This means like disconnecting 5/6 battles. Unacceptable.

[eqS729gYidXuT2BN]

@O_HOgameplay

Yeah, compare it to the slowest vehicles in the game. You know, a Churchill tank also has better mobility than a T95, yet both are slow.

Who cares? In terms of mobility it is better than 50% of what top tier Russia has to offer while being a full 1.7 BR below 11.7.

@O_HOgameplay

No. You will miss, and not kill tanks with 1shot, also there could be shots that get eaten by volumetric.
16 rounds in a slow autoloader is not a lot.

If an Obj 292 and a T-72B (or whatever other 10.0 or 10.3 tank) misses the same percentage of shots that will not matter. 10*0.5 still equals 5 regardless if it’s arranged (5+5)*0.5 or (2+2+2+2+2)*0.5.

@O_HOgameplay

No. See reasons above.

See the above.

@O_HOgameplay

You did not say that initially.

The first time I mentioned this type of calculation I specifically only mentioned Russian MBT’s around it’s BR, all of which have cannons greater than 120mm in diameter. It can assumed that because I am trying to compare the Obj 292 to other Russian tanks that I would only look at Russian tanks (especially when you’re comparing the Russian Obj 292’s ready rack size to the ready rack size of other Russian MBT’s at top tier) and it’s also assumed I wouldn’t be tanking about IFV’s and stuff because they don’t do enough penetration to frontally pen without aiming for weakspots (it would be like saying a Sherman Jumbo is good enough for 11.7 because it can pen the weakspots of top tier tanks).

@O_HOgameplay

It has no ERA, meaning the driver’s port weakspot is bigger and weaker.

The driver’s hatch/port weakspot is bigger, but the Obj 292 has essentially no turret ring weakspot, making it more survivable on the whole as there is more pennable area on the horizontal (so in cases where an enemy gun needs to swing and shoot, there will be more area for them to hit on the T-80UM2).

@O_HOgameplay

No ERA on the side ->much worse armor, especially at an angle.

Like pretty much every single other tank at the BR, while yes it is a slight disadvantage in terms of USSR the USSR does just straight up have an advantage in ERA in game (so it’s not like it’s particularly bad).

@O_HOgameplay

Very weak mantlet with an ammo rack behind it → any shot penning there will kill the tank, unlike on the others.

The mantlet generally has better protection than the T-80UM2’s mantlet, in terms of raw protection values from the protection analysis.

I also just went into the protection analysis and fired shots at the mantlet from every single spot I could and literally no shot to the mantlet of the Obj 292 will cause damage to the ammo, the cannon breech eats the spall and penetrator almost every time. Literally the only thing in that general area that will potentially cause damage to the ammo is by hitting the very middle of the driver’s sight. I also tested the T-80UM2 and it was the exact same story.

@O_HOgameplay

That is just blatantly false.

Uh, is it? You did see anything I showed prior with the heat maps? Or how about this:

First round that even has a low possibility of penning the Obj 292 outside of weakspots -

• Russia - 3BM60, first seen at 10.7, low possibility
• USA - M829, first seen at 11.0 (technically M900 on only the M1128 at 10.0, but that’s a singular vehicle which isn’t an MBT), low possibility
• Germany - DM33 (120mm), first seen at 11.3, low possibility
• Great Britain - L26, first seen at 10.3, low possibility
• Japan - JM33, first seen at 11.0, low possibility
• China - Type 1985-I APFSDS, first seen at 10.7, low possibility
• Italy - DM33, first seen at 10.3, low possibility
• France - OFL 120 F1, first seen at 11.7, low possibility
• Sweden - DM33, first seen at 11.7, low possibility (although technically the slpprj m/95, first seen at 11.3, low possibility, but that’s on a light tank)

So all in all -

• Two minor nations have rounds that can pen its non-weakspots at 10.3
• A single major nation and a single minor nation have rounds that can pen non-weakspots at 10.7
• A major nation and a minor nation have rounds that can pen non-weakspots at 11.0
• A single major nation has rounds that can pen its non-weakspots at 11.3
• Two minor nations have rounds that can pen non-weakspots at 11.7

Meaning it should be bare minimum 11.0-11.3.

@O_HOgameplay

And you can wipe your a** with it if you shoot the worng place that ends you being dead, because the tank still has a breach and/or a commander.

And if you shoot literally anywhere else on the tank they’re insta-dead. If you shoot the tracks of a top tier tank with an AP round from a M2A4 it’s not going to do anything either, because shooting the tracks of a tank 99% of the time eats the round - the same holds for the cannon breech.

@O_HOgameplay

You can get that equivivalent with a lot of ways, them ranging from having less actual mass to actually having more mass than the TNTeq.

Yes, hence why I said “If you’ve got data saying they use different types of filler than cool, but until then yeah I’m just going to assume there isn’t a large difference in the filler mass.” The only thing I would change in this sentence would be to change the “in the filler mass” to “in the filler mass to TNTeq ratio” or something since I was talking about the amount of TNTeq in each round’s type of explosive filler.

@O_HOgameplay

Do you have these things, called, “eyes”?
If yes, do you have this cool ability, called “reading”?
If still yes, then check ammo statcards.

I didn’t see anything about the types of filler being used, literally not a single chemical compound (or even non-reverse-engineerable common names like “C4” or something). Literally all they say is “filler,” never the name of a compound.

[Akiko_Haruna]

Statement: ALL missile-equipped SPAAs should get +0.7 br to give room for ASFs

A typical 10.3 SPAA like the ROLAND can be effective against aircrafts for about 5-6 km. Staying near the spawn(~2km away from cap), it is capable of destorying a 10.3 CAS plane (typical payload of unguided bombs/rockets with CCIP) well before the plane imposes any threat to allied tanks near the cap. Meanwhile, an ASF at 10.3 generally relies on rear-aspect IR missiles(effective range of around 3km), with radar-SARH missile combination effective only against high-altitude targets. This makes a 400+ SP ASF less effective than your 100 SP SPAA in destroying CAS planes, and the ASF itself is also threatened by the AA due to its inferior effective combat range. Rising the BR of all missile SPAAs should significantly degrade their performance – AAs should be effective in either avenging fallen ground teammates, or deter the pilot to use his payload in a less effective manner.
In other words, the br of SPAA should not be evaluated by how effective it is in eliminating ALL air threats at the same BR, but rather the HIGHLY EFFECTIVE ONES(bombing, rocketing, helis…) only. Long-range (and thus less time efficient)) strikes outside the scope of SPAAs should be countered by ASFs.
This is exactly how low rank battles work – any pilot gunning ground targets would be punished by SPAAs quickly, while those bombing or rocketing tanks usually die to ASFs. Similar balance should be applied to higher rank battles as well, instead of SAMs blowing everyone off the sky

[Emperororca]

Cas is alr op, dont move its best counter up in br

[aDSD]

Maybe learn how to read, read my initial comment and answer all of your questions by yourself.

[elpeladoby13]

yeah , but . what happend whit the loots probabilities