Cursed state of GRB

[ULQ_LOVER]

If You die faster than enemy CAS can even appear, I don’t think You should talk about the problem or skill issue to begin with ;)

[richthofen122]

Depends on the map and amount of Hacks on the enemy Team. CAS is only ever really a problem at high tier with helicopters and when your Team gets stomped. These are my observations from the matches where playability was given.

[ULQ_LOVER]

[richthofen122]

Someone in WT told me that I even have a negative K/D on the BMP-2M, so what. It is all bias, Gaijin rigging and Player Hacks.

[ULQ_LOVER]

Of course, that is why there are people who manage to get good stats and have different opinion.

[ULQ_LOVER]

Naval system works because of naval units having AI AA to deal with planes.

We talked already about it in this forum and on old one MH4UAstragon, You have said multiple times that You don’t want any change that would really benefit ground players.

[Zyranovos]

Including you…

If your going to complain about ppl in planes in GRB, don’t be part of the group 🤦🏽

[ULQ_LOVER]

If one wants to talk about something, he should have some experience in it ;)

[ULQ_LOVER]

I don’t get why You try to portray people wanting to play just tanks as newbies MH4UAstragon

[ULQ_LOVER]

The best idea would be to give people who just want to play tanks, their own mode like air have.

With that, we could be working on proper improvments to combined gameplay without the need to care about pure tankers as gaijin have to at the moment.

Naval vechicles have AI AA, if tanks had that, we could compare them.

But all people know Your (MH4UAstragon) point on tankers and why You don’t want to have any improvments for them ;)

Spoiler

" You claim I have such “moral high ground,” but the truth is that tank-only filth threw the first punch whether they intended to or not, killing off what I was enjoying when at the time I was not even playing tanks at all. And not only did they throw a punch once, but they kept doing more. And more. And more. And more still.

It was observing their seeming inability to “be happy with what they have” which told me their very existence and ability to whine with any legitimacy is a threat to the game. Nothing will change my mind in that regard. Because no matter how many CAS nerfs happen, such trash will keep whining for more. Until the day comes that they get boxed in and made to change or leave."

Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71 - Page 138 - Ground Battles - War Thunder - Official Forum

That is why there is no point in trusting You that, You want a real change that will improve things for people wanting to play the ground part.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@GoneToTheAether

Would you and others like you then finally stop asking for such a game mode now that you would be given undeniable proof that it isn’t as popular as you think it is?

If it was really tried and people would not want it, then why bother asking for it? Nothing hard to understand.

@GoneToTheAether

I personally do not think you and others like you would truly ever stop, hence why I do not support your idea of a trigger queue, much less a fully separated mode with a separate queue.

Why not? The same mode just without air units that You don’t have to play so it doesn’t even affect You. So what is so wrong about it? I can’t get any idea why be against it unless You know that it will affect the current mode because people will fled to the TO.

[ULQ_LOVER]

All the things You have mentioned were already discussed in different topics and it was proven that no real change is needed for ground units in TO mode.

[ULQ_LOVER]

You can just go to any other topic regarding TO/Combined mode and read it there. We even had that conversations on old forum.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@GoneToTheAether

Firstly, both combined and TO games would use the same maps. Without the TO mode having some newfound method of dislodging people from power positions (which is sadly the role CAS is forced into), this could lead to TO match statistics resulting in map alterations for all modes despite the changes being only “needed” in one. Effectively the same issue why I got so angry years ago when I was much more immature - punishing all modes for a problem in one portion of one mode. Adding a replacement mechanic such as the “Doom Artillery” from the Battle Royale events could prevent such an issue from arising. Experienced players like you and I know how to dislodge someone from a power position without the help of CAS, but the average player is far dumber, would usually fail to do so without lots of supporting fire from teammates, and then complain here about it.

CAS is not needed to deal with positions on maps.

If one wants to shoot at You, You always can shoot back at him.

@GoneToTheAether

Second, it would concentrate the problems of CAS’s implementation in the remaining mixed mode (at least if selecting “yes” for the trigger queue caused TO players to never see mixed matches) and thus cause major uproars, forcing the snail’s hand. In the past whenever the snail’s hand was forced, the result was usually some boneheaded nerf that caused more problems than it fixed, or a small “victory” that was later rendered irrelevant (the Parts & FPE uproar initially being successful, only then to see everyone get HEATFS stock in high tiers being the main example). If selecting “yes” to the trigger queue resulted in such matches still only occasionally, this would not be an issue. There is also some remote possibility of “mass exodus” causing the current CA mode to wither on the vine instead of get the actual help it needs.

Adding a mode just for tanks would actually solve the issue of CAS in mixed mode as all palyers playing the mixed mode would be focused on combined aspect of it. Anyone wanting to play ‘just tanks’ would have a place for it.

Meaning everyone playing mixed mode would play it with mixed line-up.

@GoneToTheAether

Third, what about Battle Ratings? A machine could see its stats distorted by use in TO, provided such matches occurred regularly enough for people who selected “yes” to the trigger queue, and then see its BR altered in both TO and CA modes. For example, the T95 could see its BR raised due to use in TO where there are no planes to bomb it once it gets into a power position. Another case of punishing all game modes for the sake of one. The opposite example could be SPAAGs seeing BRs lowered further still. This could be a non-issue if TO proved not popular enough, or it could be addressed with yet another BR split between modes. Aforementioned “Doom Artillery” could also prevent this being an issue, as well.

No battle rating adjustments are needed.

T95 can be destroyed by tanks from much smaller B.R. than it is frontally. Not to mention other weakspots.

@GoneToTheAether

Fourth and most importantly, this issue has been argued about for many years, denied more consistently than any other request by the devs, and keeps being shot down even today. If the devs suddenly changed their tune, thereby caving to the complaining, that would set a very dangerous precedent of “if they say no, keep pestering until they say yes.” There is so much bad blood surrounding the issue that there isn’t really a way to implement such a mode and NOT cause an uproar at this point.

Devs changed their opinion many times and will change as they want. There is no issue in changing the game to suit what players really want.

@GoneToTheAether

Fifth, it existing at all would embolden similarly extreme sects of the playerbase to then call for their “[Insert Vehicle Type]-Only Mode” or “Mode without [Insert Vehicle Type]” or “Mode without [Insert Nation].” A few examples would be (in no particular order): Fighter-Only Mode, Bomber/Attacker-Only Mode, WW2-Vehicle Only Mode, Naval-Only Mode, Coastal Boat-Only Mode, etc. etc. It could very easily spiral out of control in a Pandora’s Box scenario. If the devs claimed “this is a special case to put down a longstanding community debate we’re tired of,” it would look to everyone else like the tankers are getting special treatment and rightfully anger other portions of the game community.

If that is the case, then all modes that are not combined should cease to exist.

If You want to discuss anything more, bring examples and evidence so we can actually have a proper discussion.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@GoneToTheAether

In theory, this is true.

It is true in practice.

Air allows player to not get better in the game.

@GoneToTheAether

it would require overkill-buffing artillery

It doesn’t. People will actually need to get better instead of getting an easy way of just using the air.

@GoneToTheAether

You aren’t seeing my point here. If every user in the Combined mode only queues there with intent to spam CAS, it would likely push existing irritations with how CAS unfortunately works to boiling-over levels, causing yet another frustrated uproar and then some overreaction, heavy-handed, and half-baked weapon nerf instead of actually solving the serious problems with how CAS is implemented.

Surely you should know by now that forcing snail’s hand is not wise most of the time. Unless the upper management completely turned over after the Steam Review Bombing Revolt, I would not think it wise to intentionally force a confrontation.

It really doesn’t as people playing that mode would play with that in mind. There would be no people wanting to just play tanks, meaning that if CAS spam appears then there will be fast reaction to it because all people playing the mode are playing it for being combined. Not because that is the only place where they can use tanks.

@GoneToTheAether

Especially when copying Naval’s idea of making everyone have a mixed lineup by default would be easier with ten times less headache.

It doesn’t as teams still consist of people wanting to just play tanks.

@GoneToTheAether

For an experienced user like yourself or myself, yes. We know where to shoot them to cripple or outright kill them. We know to build appropriate lineups instead of blindly rushing down tech trees. We know to not spawn a Jumbo Sherman in a full uptier with an expectation to do well.

The average player does not. They would non-pen, get annihilated, and be that much more prone to ranting here about “[insert heavy tank] is frontally indestructible, what am I supposed to do?!” You or I would merely shrug at dying and then go spawn either a HEAT dispenser or an artillery piece and delete the guy, but the average player is impatient and frequently does not bother building proper lineups before jumping ranks.

So people would need to learn the game instead of getting an easy way with the air? That is good and would allow for more healthy playerbase.

@GoneToTheAether

Frankly, I think the whole game should begin transitioning towards this anyways. Use Naval EC as a base. Allow player ships of Frigate size or larger to capture enemy harbors, after which they can spawn landing boats. Landing boats which reach the beach successfully create player tank spawn points. After capturing a harbor town beachhead, then various caps in the town open up that need to be controlled to fully take over the town. Then more objectives spawn further inland, eventually leading to capturing enemy runways with player tanks. Supply vehicle AI convoys would function as mobile spawn points to push inland with.

Planes would be duking it out overhead, softening up harbor defenses before naval bombardment begins, helping dislodge troublesome tanks in harbor towns or on inland objectives, and so forth.

It would work only if there was no more different modes or when all units have the seperate mode.

With TO in place, we could change combined mode into something much better.

[_Ladies_Man_217]

Russia and Germany on the same team, what a joke.

[richthofen122]

@SpeclistMain

Average response from a CAS abuser:

And I am proud of it.

I read a book titled “Kamikaze” as far back as Elementary School, painted an Imperial Japanese Rising Sun flag onto the schoolyard with crayons and dreamt of a heroic Death on wings of steel.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@GoneToTheAether

This argument was used for years hoping and praying that average players would “git gud using SPAAG,” and guess what, that never happened.

Because most of SPAAs are not effective against the air they are facing. I have pointed that out multiple times.

Especially when we compare it to the air.

Not to mention the difference between asking player to use different vechicle and saying that he should get better in one he is playing.

@GoneToTheAether

Adding your mode does not help make CAS any more of a healthy player in the mode instead of an abusive one. It only concentrates it further hoping to force the dev team’s hand.

The situation changes as all people playing the mode are focused on combined aspect of it.

For the sake of argument, let us say that 50% of players want to play just tanks and 50% of players want to play combined in current GF RBs mode. So the matchmaker can make a situation when in one team 10 out of 16 players will use just tanks while in the other the situation is different. Because of it, the abuse/frustartion happens and no argument of ‘just use X’ will change it. With all ‘pure tankers’ out of current GF RBs mode, You would have 16 vs 16 full combined players.

@GoneToTheAether

TO mode does nothing to make the kill camera less obnoxious. TO mode does not deal with planes spawning in midair at high speed. TO mode does not give both tanks and planes any new objectives to get diehard fans of both off each other’s throats. TO mode does not address the inherent imbalance of the spawn point system for using CAS. TO mode does not make SPAAGs any more user-friendly.

TO mode will only serve to enable already experienced players with years of map knowledge to sit in abusable spots that much more, with many less options available to dislodge them.

With our without kill camera, if someone wants to do revange kill, he will do it.

Forcing all air units to start from the airport will only make the inevitable happen a couple of seconds later, not remove the problem. Not to mention the airfield campers problem occuring.

New objectives are totally different topic, as I have said, with TO here we could change combined mode into something better.

What imbalance of spawn point system?

Again, no matter what You change with SPAA, if people want just to use tanks, then the situation won’t change for them.

I will ignore the rant about ‘experienced players’ as it is nothing more than just rant.

@GoneToTheAether

And frankly the game shouldn’t allow this to begin with. It needs to full-commit to Combined Arms like the dev team proclaims is the game’s focus.

The game allows for many things and we all know that there is no option to force people to do something.

@GoneToTheAether

Note: addressing what is actually wrong with CAS does not actually remove potential for your mode. But it does remove the half-baked rage posts screaming for it which never think seriously about the implications of such a mode. Neither you nor I know how popular the idea truly is without a bunch of rage and salt from being revenge bombed one too many times fueling it.

It doesn’t change anything as a problem for people wanting to play just tanks remains.

@GoneToTheAether

At best I could see it as a small bonus implemented only after the actual wrongs with how CAS works are properly dealt with. A bonus, not a need.

Hell, most of the complaints about CAS really are just revenge bombing or about the intentionally unbalanced top tier debacle of whether the ATGM/Glide Bomb or the SAM has the longer range.

All the issues of air are because of different people put in a game at random. Either we get a mode for pure tankers so people playing current GF RBs mode are focused on combined aspect or we get skill-based matchmaker.

There is no other real solution as no matter how You nerf the air or buff the SPAA, for people who just want to play tanks things remain the same. As soon as You understand that people who just want to play tanks won’t change or go away, You will realize that the best solution for improving current gamemode is to first introduce a place for pure tankers.

[Sweedish_Gunner]

Holy shi*…

[Zannafrancy12]

im a cas lover, im here for the mixed battles, “whining” about cas isnt whining, its objectively too strong and too easy to get into.