Chieftain Mk 10, Chieftain 900 and T-72M1 Battle Ratings

[Heavytanker1945]

I mean… They had a tendency to not flat out lie about the performance of stuff. They might inflate the numbers some, But they own up to their failures, they know the OG version of L21/L23A1 (What ever you wanna call it) was total garbage.

People think they do, Especially with stuff like the 6 pounder APDS, but when that stuff could knock holes in the front of Jagdpanthers, i entirely believe it.

I mean if a 6 pounder could do THIS, i seriously wonder how absolutely shafted 17pounder APDS is in game.

[MatrixRupture]

Sorry ofc sources are only acceptable is they come from the Regis cosmic space Christ

[Heavytanker1945]

i mean…

British testing showed that at 500m 17pounder APDS could UFP King Tigers so… I think Gaijin just like screwing over the British.

[Caernarvon02]

@Heavytanker1945

They had a tendency to not flat out lie about the performance of stuff

ajax.

@Heavytanker1945

Especially with stuff like the 6 pounder APDS, but when that stuff could knock holes in the front of Jagdpanthers

i mean that parts only going to be like 150mm LOS of steel.

@Heavytanker1945

i mean…

not even close to the same angle and this is war thunder armour models

[Heavytanker1945]

@Caernarvon02

i mean that parts only going to be like 150mm LOS of steel.

it hit bellow the bolts, meaning it hit both the UFP, and the cast mantlet. So its more like 200mm

[MatrixRupture]

Sadly you can’t really go off that too many variables.

[Caernarvon02]

thats just gone through the casting and not the plate. that specific jagd is at munster tank museum, its actually about 120mm from looking it up myself

- YouTube

IK youre a teaboo but come on dude at least be realistic with the glazing of my country

[poopooo]

They don’t necessarily have to face the Leopard 2A4. What should be done is to decompress the battle groups by adding new models or modifying existing ones. For example, the armor of the first T-72B could be changed, the T-72A (1984) could be added, the Leopard 1A3 or A4 could be added, the M60A1 RISE could be added without ERA, giving it only the M750, the Chieftain Mk5 could be given the L15A5 with its correct penetration, and the Mk10 its correct L23A1, the T-62 (1974) could be added with the 3BM21, etc. It’s simply a matter of further separating the battle groups by adding tanks with similar performance characteristics.

Just as the battle groups of aircraft were raised, the battle groups of tanks could be raised to Br 14.0.

[TwitchyNGL]

TTD does far better against Terminator than a lot of the lineup tbh, Ajax and CRV II are useless against it, TTD is one of the better tanks for fighting it

[Kobes-Kamov]

@Heavytanker1945

I found a couple things that mentioned the “Sundance” Program they keep mentioning being canceled,

Please refer to the parliament archieve below, as of 1978 the engine improvement program (almost certainly sundance) was said to be “going well”, I doubt it was cancelled.

@Flame2512

Also if Chieftains were rolling around with 840 hp engines in 1978 then that would have made the Chieftain 800 program in the early 80s completely pointless. Why would they re-engine a chieftain to have less power than what the current engine provides?

Just because the program ended in 1978, that does not mean that a significant number of Cheiftains were upgraded to that standard by then.

Archieves from parliament indicate that by Feburary 1978 the engine improvement (likely Sundance) program was still “continuing”. You can either read this as the actual program of upgrading tanks was continuing, or that the program of designing / developing improvement modifcations was still ongoing.

We don’t know how many Chieftains were actually upgraded, it could have only been a select few, therefore the CV12 replacement made sense due to the fact that many of Cheiftains were still running the old engine by 1982.

Even with Sundance upgrades, the L60 still had a lower maximum horsepower than the CV12 which could go up to 1000hp (as per your document), it made no sense to use the L60 instead of the CV12. The CV12 had more power potential and was more reliable.

@Flame2512

Four years after the 840 hp engine supposedly entered service you would expect them to refer to that as the “current L60”, if indeed it existed.

I’d like to point out the word current isn’t used, it says “existing L60”, it never refers to it as the current variant as in the most modern variant rather just saying the L60 is the engine fitted to the Chieftain.

This is pretty vague, it dosen’t mention which variant of L60, and assuming it includes the sundance upgraded L60s is not unreasonable, but we don’t have direct proof.

---

Personally, I believe we should go with the Leyland society’s numbers as they are very specific about the engine variants and their horsepowers. A lot of the other sources talk generally about the L60, or about the marks of tanks themselves rather than the engine marks. The Leylands Society’s information is very precise and in detail, it also comes from Archives, so it’s reliable information.

[Heavytanker1945]

But all it says is that the L60 was capable of making 840hp.

Nowhere does it say the engine in the tanks MADE that much HP. find evidence in a Manual or something for the Chieftains that say it flat out had 840hp, and ill believe you.

But until you do, im not believing some random Magazine.

There are alot more Primary first hand sources that say the chieftains topped out at 760HP.

[Heavytanker1945]

@Caernarvon02

ajax.

also, are you really trying to blame the british for the issues with the Ajax? Every issue that tank has is caused by Scameral Dynamics, The Booker was in the same exact boat. Its why it was discontinued.

[Kobes-Kamov]

@Heavytanker1945

But all it says is that the L60 was capable of making 840hp.

It states that the Mk.11A - 12A were specifically part of the Sundance program which aimed to improve the engines, FOR THE CHIEFTAIN TANK, this according to the sources included increasing the engine power to 840hp. Therefore it makes absolutely no sense that they would upgrade the engine to 840hp and not implement this on the tank.

You can go and find me a source that says that the MK.11A or 12A engines were downrated before being put into the Cheiftains.

@Heavytanker1945

But until you do, im not believing some random Magazine.

Some random magazine? One of the Leyland societies goals is to preserve primary archival information about Leyland engines (including the L60), and they likely have more archival information that anyone else excluding the British Government themselves regarding Leyland engines.

If you keep saying ridiculous stuff like this I’m just going to ignore you

[Caernarvon02]

@Kobes-Kamov

If you keep saying ridiculous stuff like this I’m just going to ignore you

dont worry he will

[Heavytanker1945]

I think this set of BR changes shows just how INEPT Gaijin are.

There was no reason for the TTD to go down, now it just stomps on 9.0s that flat out can’t pen it, or out maneuver it.

The TTD was already a VERY Good MBT, sure the reload rate is scuffed and it should be about 6 seconds flat, and the turret ring was a tad week.

it still was a VERY Competent MBT, there was NO reason to move it down to 10.0.

So why move it down, and the Chieftain up? thats just adding to the BR compression issue.

Moving the Chieftains up to 9.3, was like if you moved the M60A1 (RISE) up to 9.3, they are basically the same tank, no Thermals, poor mobility, decent turret armor, crap armor else where. You have put a Stop gap, Gen 2 MBT, at the same BR as early Gen 3 MBTs, and that just isn’t right.

[Heavytanker1945]

at this rate, i think as many people as possible with the Chieftain mk10 and 900 just need to go into as many matches as possible and just throw. if Gaijin is just going listen to their garbage Ai generated Spreadsheets and NOT the voices of the players, then lets ruin the spreadsheets so bad that they will have to do something.

[Heavytanker1945]

the fact that THIS THING, and a Chieftain can now end up in the same match is just depressing.

The Chieftain is approaching 70 years old.

[rainy2000]

AJAX is abysmal

[Heavytanker1945]

its actually decent, If the armor actually worked it would even better, it should be 30mm APDS Proof from the front, But well…

[Milashny_Koteyka]

@poopooo

What should be done is to decompress the battle groups by adding new models or modifying existing ones.

Modifying the M60 to make it equal to 2a4 is a joke tbh. Same goes with Leopard 1s. They lack armanment and protection so much, and without addition of 120mm cannons with decent ammo (that would make the “new models” a glass cannon which is not good i believe), or new proper armor (that is probably never existed such a modification to whistand a 120mm shot to at least a turret). And adding just same tanks but with a bit better ammo (which still would damage not enough as its 105, and still wuld require to shoot same spots) isnt an option as again - glass cannons.

Tho i DO agree those machines need decompression. So the 7.3-7.7 wont meet the stabs and apfsds, the 8.0-8.3 wont meet thermals with stabs and apfsds, and 8.7-9.3 wont meet modern MBTs. But that is unprobable as there wont be ±1 then to play.