Correction, the T-34-85 has a slightly inferior round.
The Chi Ri having the “magical APHEBC slope modifier” isn’t as notable as you claim.
Honorable mention to the T95 that got absolutely hammered by APHE:
The Chi-Ri never had a 8.5s stock reload, it had an ace reload of 3.3s, I don’t know who is telling you it was 8 seconds.
It used to be 4.7 was great. 5.0 was where it was fine. 5.3 and 5.7 were pushing it.
It has a 4.5s reload, clearly it is as good as the Type 90 :clueless:
Aye. The Chi-Ri in 5.7, 6.0 and 6.3 matches, it’s fine, because for the most part, it’s fighting tanks it used to fight. It already handled them. I’ll not be the last to admit, the Chi-Ri would need a few other things to be a better tank, but that’s just fine.
With this loader-assist buff, it actually feels like a 5.3 tank: look no further than the French M4A1 (FL10), with it’s FULL-ON autoloader, guaranteed to fire once every 5 seconds, allowing it to fire 13 times before needing to replenish. If I recall from test-driving it once, you did have to stay hidden until the rack had a round in it, then it would reload the gun, like most full-on autoloaders, and that has smoke grenades, so it can give itself cover to move in or distract foes.
If it were me, the Chi-Ri would be rough but manageable at 5.7 if it got, say, the Type 90 Smoke Shell and the Na-To’s Type APCR, then the autoloader would give it a one over the Sherman 76 like the Sherman 76 has the stabilizer over the Chi-Ri, but given the lack of these rounds on other vehicles armed with basically the same cannon, the Chi-Nu II and Chi-Tos, the Chi-Ri as latest of the bunch wouldn’t either…
You are ignoring the loading trays. The reload was 6.5 seconds aced the same as the Chi-To’s, but you had 2 rounds on the loading tray that gave you 2 3.3 sec reloads before you reverted to your normal reload rate, loading from 1st stage straight into the gun. Once you stopped firing the loader would restock the loading tray. Basically identical as to how the PZH-2000 currently functions with 2 ready rounds with 5 sec re-load then the rest are 7.5 until the loading tray is re-stocked.
With that in mind changing it from, 3.3 seconds to 4.5 seconds is a nerf or at absolute best a side-grade with the 1st stage increase. having a larger ready rack for a slower reload could be argued as a buff for a close in brawler that might have to engage multiple enemies, but the Chi-Ri isn’t a front line tank, unless you like being flanked and side penned buy a duster. Having 3 quick shots then a 6.5 sec reload or backing up to re-stock the ready rack was not an issue for the Chi-Ri.
It is also illogical that the ammo now teleports from the 1st stage storage to the loading trays.
You make plenty of good points on the matters of the T-34-85…
It’s smaller, faster, more prone to volumetric nonsense, and has an APCR, that because APCR is in poor condition, isn’t all that useful, but better to have it and not need it than need it but not have it.
Volumetric is a big part of the T-34’s survivability, it’s why I take care when shooting them and Panthers, the volumetric stuff can eat even well-aimed shots, even those with fairly high pen like the Type 4 Kou. But the Chi-Ri could always handle T-34s and Panthers, it has always faced them, their weaknesses are normal, and targetable weaknesses without having to squint at them funny to see them: If the T-34-85 slips up, the Chi-Ri can punch his UFP and he’s done (though most anything can do that to a Chi-Ri, it can’t angle), or the Panther’s cupola or the mantlet on either side of the gun.
The Chi-Ri does not lack these weaknesses, it’s just that you don’t need to exploit it’s weaknesses: it is a giant weakness with no way to cover itself other than with hard cover.
In short, a gun’s performance alone does not dictate the tank’s performance. The size, shape, mobility and gun together do. That’s why…
Let’s compare some different, similar vehicles: Panzer 4 J, and Chi-To.
The Panzer 4 and Chi-To have comparable mobility, reload speed, armor and firepower.
The Panzer 4 is the smaller and slower of the two, has less explosive mass to it’s explosive rounds, and the slower turret traverse… But it has HEAT, APCR, Smoke Shells, and smoke grenades, as well as the better reload. It sits happily enough at 3.7.
The Chi-To is larger, has locked optics, and hull traverse issues due to it’s length… But has more explosive mass, turret traverse, better top speeds and is entirely .50 cal proof. The Chi-To is 4.7
Did you angle today? This isn’t the most serious factoid, but it’s still rather relevant on other vehicles…
The Panzer 4… Really can’t angle, but those frontal hull sides are steeply angled from the front, allowing it to angle.
The Chi-To has much the same issue, but the angle is significantly worse: the tank is simply too long to make that same situation work.
But enough of the comparison. On to some flawed arguments.
The Chi-Ri’s old reload of 3.3 seconds tripled once the loader-assist was empty, hence why it felt bad… Gaijin didn’t even do that part right. It should have had a 6.6 second reload, right next to the Chi-To’s. The new 4.5 second reload should, by that logic, should be 9 seconds after the emptying of the loader-assist. But Gaijin just made their screw-up a feature, and so the empty rack leaves it with a 13.5 second reload now, as made note of in one of your images. Luckily for Gaijin, this “new” feature makes sense, as the ready-rack is in the turret, and the rest of the ammo is in the hull. The Chi-Ri literally gets nothing but the loader-assist size buff as reason to it’s BR increase. One more crew member? In the turret, one APHE there does the same thing as it used to: kill them all and leave the Chi-Ri with 2 crew. A better APHE and a new HE to the 37mm? Niche before and now a bit more helpful in fights where you’re facing an AA with your hull and a tank to your side with your turret. Those don’t even warrant a BR change together, it’s all on the loader assist buff. Granted, the Chi-Ri couldn’t have stayed at 5.0 with this buff… But saying the Chi-Ri is on par with a Tiger 1 just doesn’t gel. Is a Panzer 4 on par with a Tiger 1? We both know the answer is a resounding no.
It’s basically the exact same tank as a Chi-To-Late (BR 4.7) with two quick reloads (and a 37mm cannon which is less useful than the 37mm on the M6A1). And IMO Ch-To-Late should really be 4.3.
Not sure a full BR uptier is worth that, as it will face enemies with much heavier armor than 4.7 vehicles do. 3 quick shots that won’t pen are hardly better than 1 shot that won’t pen.
Comparing it to T-34 85 is a stretch as the Ch-Ri bounces hardly any shots, and aside from it’s top speed, the Ch-Ri is very sluggish. T-34 also gets APCR, which can make the difference in SOME situations.
You realize the Chi-RI II never saw combat service, right? What it would have mostly fought were Sherman 75mm M4s and the rare 76mm, as those were just too heavy for the Pacific.
How is this relevant?
Yes, basically at some point gaijin changed the stage one ammo rack from the turret bustle to the hull floor drastically increasing the base reload and restock rate.
He is talking about in game. Not historically.
Historically, yes, it would have fought Shermans, and if it saw service in the state it is in-game in real life, it would have been quite the menace to them. But this post isn’t about history, as others may have already noted. This is about it being at a BR where it can fight things that it cannot hurt, on the regular (because fml, I live in stereotypical Wehraboo territory and so 5.7 sees 60% full uptier rate) and how that seems unfair to the vehicle on the grounds that it doesn’t have any of the more effective gap-bridging capabilities at the for 5.7 vehicles fighting 6.7 vehicles, like a stabilizer, better mobility, smaller size, angled armor, APCR or the like.
In short, on the principle that the Chi-Ri is basically an autoloaded Panzer 4, should it be fighting Ferdinands, SU-122-54s or USA T-34s at all? In all likelihood, it’s not a 5.7 worthy vehicle, even if the buff makes it a lot less gimmicky/more viable.
I don’t want to break your mood, but I don’t think so…
It wouldn’t have fought Shermans anyway
Because, as a joke, US Mains of IRL just CAS everything.
Carpet bombing from B-29 or Close Air Support by Corsairs or Bearcats…
I think it wouldn’t going to have a chance to fire a gun…
Well, about WT, maybe it is borderlining 5.7, maybe?
Not good enough to stay 5.7 but not bad enough to buff down to 5.0.
The Panzer 4 has an inferior round, inferior mobility, inferior reload…
On top of potentially being under-BR’d.
Chi Ri’s mobility, reload, and round is what protects it.
@QTip_44
The Chi To Late is slightly less mobile getting to 30kph 2 seconds slower than Chi Ri, and Chi Ri having a 50% faster reverse speed.
Chi Ri also has a 2.3 second faster reload, which has caused further increases in BRs elsewhere.
None of these are my opinions.
You know what my opinion is in all this? I find it being 5.7 fine.
The reason for this opinion is the fact Chi Ri will never have a non-5.7 lineup because of its mobility, its round, and its reload.
If you succeeded in getting it to 5.3, it’s still in the 5.7 lineup.
It can’t be 5.0 again, it’s been buffed and its equivalents mostly sit at 5.7 to begin with, with maybe a few at 5.3.
CAS was always it’s own thing. In real life and in War Thunder, it’s there, though I do see the writing on the wall more than the Japanese did by the time they were losing the war: hindsight is 20/20, it wouldn’t have made a difference since there was a distinct lack of air superiority on Japan’s side. (shakes fist) Curse you, Imperial Japanese Navy.
Chi-To’s, Nu Ii, and Ri II were always 4.3 originally, unless you’re referring to before 2017.
I won’t argue the facts are the facts. And the facts are that the Chi-Ri’s contemporaries have more consistency: T-34-85: faster, so it’s inferior rounds can get to the weaker sides of it’s enemies and make use of the higher explosive mass to more lethal effect. And it’s a capped round, so it performs against angles slightly better, and so it can flank even less to get the same results: it’s round killing the enemy sooner and from safer positions than the Chi-Ri can It gets APCR, situational as that is. The Sherman 76: stabilizers make getting into fights faster, especially if both participants are moving. There’s also the .50 cal, which can help to ward off air and keep the main gun up and ready when shooting tracks, keeping the Sherman from being helpless from most directions (compared to the hull-mounted 37 of the Chi-Ri being as situational as not being hull-down and exposed), smoke shells, and APCR so it’s not a sitting duck despite being slower than the Chi-Ri. The Panther: way better pen and armor, faster, smoke grenades, neutral steer. It’s 5.3, or 6.0.
The facts are, you can be fine with it at 5.7. You can have that opinion, if you feel fine like that, by all means, be my guest. But the Chi-Ri’s contemporaries all have something over it the reload can’t account for, something I feel the Chi-Ri would want (but can’t have because of the strong notions of historical accuracy in War Thunder, and thus the lack of proof it had those things) if it were going to stay 5.7.
I want to fight guys who are aware of me sometimes, it’s more… Interactive and fun-feeling that way. An aware USA T-34, of course, does not lose to a Chi-Ri. And of course, you can always rely on your team… To kill the guy who just killed you during or after your kill cam.
So let’s shake on it.
You can have Chi-Ri at 5.7 whenever you feel like, I would really like it to be 5.3, so I don’t have to spend half the match cowering because something I can’t hurt unless he was already unaware is staring me down while his allies smack around the rest of my team until someone else comes along and either kills me or draws my attention from the thing I can’t kill, forces me out of cover or whatever else may come/so I can feel like I’m not a pebble in front of a steamroller.
The Chi-Tos are both 4.7, the Chi-Ri is 5.7, the only one left of the lot at 4.3 is the Chi-Nu II. The Chi-Nu II, of course, sits 1.0 above the Chi-Nu and is essentially what the Sherman 76 is to the Sherman 75, better gun, same armor. But it’s that low because, well… You can .50 cal the Chi-Nu II from anywhere but the front. And since a lot of vehicles can pen 50mm and even the 20~25 the Chi-Nu II’s sides are… Even the Chi-Nu II may be overtiered.
Should have stayed at 5.0 tbh. Maybe 5.3. Definitely not 5.7 though.
It was mediocre to bad before the reload change but if they had just kept it at 5.0 it would’ve been viable. Though still not great because of its abysmal mobility, large size, and no useable armour.
The Delat Torn was better but with the change it would’ve been fairly equal. Worse mobility, larger profile, slightly worse turret rotation speed and short-term reload but much better long-term reload and better reverse speed.
Chi Nu II should be 4.0 to be fair
