It’s the best counter. Even an M36B2 isn’t very reliable, especially against defending tanks and late into the match.
Planes fullfil an important role of being able to kill any tank regardless of uptirr or downtier.
Crutch? Obviously not. Legitimate counter? Yes.
CAS haters continuing to make strawmen, cuz they can’t argue with actual points. Classic.
UNLIMITED SHERMAN WORKS
The M36 is a perfectly good counter.
Also why does it always have to be a very specific scenario in which your chosen tank for the argument cannot perform, ergo the only option is CAS?
I can say the same for almost any tank played by a good enough player
The fact that you constantly talk about the jumbo being isnufficient against KT is evidence of this. You say it cannnot counter it so you need planes. A.K.A a crutch.
But this is straying off topic now and we are no longer discussing SP costs.
I cropped it a bit better now
It’s at a major disadvantage, hence why planes are good to aid in balancing.
We don’t balance based on the best or the worst players, we balance based on the average player.
CAS levels the playing field between two average players.
Because this specific scenario happens all the time and it’s also what CAS is best at.
Crutch? Obviously not. Legitimate counter? Yes.
CAS as counter for heavy tanks is situational at the very best.
Even if we take your example, a defending KT late into the match, there might be situations where tank is prefered.
CAS cant cap nor actually control territory. Taking out single KT means nothing if team is bleeding tickets and needs to cap ground points and gain territory.
Since Tiger II (P) can be reliably sniped by even US 76mm APHE frontally, were talking about Tiger II (H). Sure, while it cant be penned frontally penned by US 75mm, 76mm guns reliably and Jacksons either require APCR or HEATFS, but just because it cannot be penned frontally doesnt mean it cannot be engaged frontally.
And, as I already stated today, a heavy tank full BR higher oughta have some armor capable of protecting it frontally, because otherwise, whats the damn point?
Yes and you keep choosing the jumbo for one specific reason. It is kinda hard to balance. The gun is ass but it has so much armour that if it went down in BR it would dominate. So now it has to sometimes face KTs in uptiers.
Your specific scenario of having to attack a point defended by KTs in a jumbo?
Yeah it can be both at the same time. Sure a plane can bomb a KT but a tank can also kill a KT thus making the plane a crutch by being a tool you use because you cannot perform with the tank to get rid of the threat.
You have heavy tanks and uptiers in pretty much every single Warthunder match.
This is why I said CAS fullfils the role that tanks can’t, and tanks fullfil the role that CAS can’t.
The tanks can’t kill the defending KT, and the CAS can’t cap the point, hence why both are needed.
The M36B2 loses all its advantages over a King Tiger late in the match. A KT can one shot an M36 pretty much anywhere it wants (even without HE) however M36 needs careful aim and access to very specific spots.
It’s a very popular tank that highlights a major issue.
Not just KT and not just Jumbo. Pretty much any attacker is at a major disadvantage.
Crutch implies you use it cause you lack skill.
CAS doesn’t solve a lack of skill (you need multiple kills to get it) it solves uneven playing fields.
and they are encountered in many various scenarios, some of them not requiring CAS to get rid of them in the first place.
That heavily depends on several factors that are almost always unique to the match at hand. Yes, sometimes the most effective way, but not the only way, to get rid of a good player in defending King Tiger. This feature will be kept by the new A2G ordnance SP cost system for ground battles which is the point of this thread.
See the aforementioned point about this being heavily dependent on several factors.
yes, a 6.7 heavy tank can one shot 5.7 tank destroyer. I fail to see how it is bad.
*if engaging frontally. Again, I fail to see how it is bad, a 6.7 heavy tank should have effective frontal armor against 5.7 tank destroyer.
No you don’t.
Bu the tanks can kill the defending KT.
Does it highlight an isssue though? one of the rare tanks that have weak guns but good armour.
And here we are again with the specific scenario. Yes attackers are at a disadvantage I will give you that. But that is when you change tactics to remedy that disadvantage. You needing CAS just shows you think that the only option is to just rush the defending tanks.
Exactly. You lack skill to kill a tank in a certain position because you only engage frontaly it seems by your arguments
Just use the 5.0 IKV 103 then, that thing gets 400mm HEAT
I don’t understand the obsession with “frontally pen.”
Tanks have 4 sides.
Front is only one of them.
If anything, your complaints should be about map design to allow for more flanking and ability to say “This fight is disadvantageous, I pull back and reposition to push a weaker flank.”
You know, interesting decision making.
In Dota 2, if the entire enemy team is sitting top that’s the perfect chance for you as pos 1 to push deep on bottom lane with wards and take their T2 and T1 towers. Maybe even threaten high-ground.
In air, if I go and chase an A-26 from above and behind in my Bf109G14 and get torn to shreds… do I complain that A-26 is OP? (I do complain about mouse click aiming for ASB but that’s general).
No.
I go and fly in front of and below the A-26B where its gun cannot point. I’d probably still get turn out because those things are terrifying if the player is paying attention.
You’re effectively complaining you can’t tail-chase an A-26B without dying.
As I recall there is a tooltip that says to go for the sides of tanks. It is also one of the things shown in the ground forces tutorial.
Yeah The M44 is nasty. That’s Why I don’t have it researched (apart from it being Copy paste into all the trees and France literally having 2 different AMX-13 chassis with artillery guns.)
I will allow myself to have a hot take here, I hate self-propeled howitzers in their current form. They were never meant to engage other tanks with direct fire, at least for the most part, and for them to actually engage other tanks in direct fire, something must have gone terribly wrong. It ruins what little remaining immersion I had.
On top of that, I hate that some of them, like Pzh2000, are the most effective snipers at their BR thanks to being a 1998 vehicle with laser range finder at the BR where they fight 1960s tanks.
Yeah I’m with you on this one. Also being overpressured in a heavy tank by a 155mm shell is not fun at all. The only SPH I have is the Auf 1 and the swedish derp thing. And I barely play them.
how to spawn a tank while trying not to die?
This the response to CAS arguments of just spawn SPAA. The smiley face makes it clear to me at least it’s the subversion of that argument. But we are again straying off topic.
