Changes to the SP cost of CAS in GRB

[Beeschurger]

@Pangolin_Fan

It’s the best counter.

CAS as counter for heavy tanks is situational at the very best.

Even if we take your example, a defending KT late into the match, there might be situations where tank is prefered.

CAS cant cap nor actually control territory. Taking out single KT means nothing if team is bleeding tickets and needs to cap ground points and gain territory.

@Pangolin_Fan

Even an M36B2 isn’t very reliable, especially against defending tanks and late into the match.

Since Tiger II (P) can be reliably sniped by even US 76mm APHE frontally, were talking about Tiger II (H). Sure, while it cant be penned frontally penned by US 75mm, 76mm guns reliably and Jacksons either require APCR or HEATFS, but just because it cannot be penned frontally doesnt mean it cannot be engaged frontally.

And, as I already stated today, a heavy tank full BR higher oughta have some armor capable of protecting it frontally, because otherwise, whats the damn point?

[Herojure24]

@Pangolin_Fan

We don’t balance based on the best or the worst players, we balance based on the average player.

Yes and you keep choosing the jumbo for one specific reason. It is kinda hard to balance. The gun is ass but it has so much armour that if it went down in BR it would dominate. So now it has to sometimes face KTs in uptiers.

@Pangolin_Fan

Because this specific scenario happens all the time and it’s also what CAS is best at.

Your specific scenario of having to attack a point defended by KTs in a jumbo?

@Pangolin_Fan

Crutch? Obviously not. Legitimate counter? Yes.

Yeah it can be both at the same time. Sure a plane can bomb a KT but a tank can also kill a KT thus making the plane a crutch by being a tool you use because you cannot perform with the tank to get rid of the threat.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Beeschurger

CAS as counter for heavy tanks is situational at the very best.

You have heavy tanks and uptiers in pretty much every single Warthunder match.

@Beeschurger

Even if we take your example, a defending KT late into the match, there might be situations where tank is prefered.

CAS cant cap nor actually control territory. Taking out single KT means nothing if team is bleeding tickets and needs to cap ground points and gain territory.

This is why I said CAS fullfils the role that tanks can’t, and tanks fullfil the role that CAS can’t.

The tanks can’t kill the defending KT, and the CAS can’t cap the point, hence why both are needed.

@Beeschurger

Since Tiger II (P) can be reliably sniped by even US 76mm APHE frontally, were talking about Tiger II (H). Sure, while it cant be penned frontally penned by US 75mm, 76mm guns reliably and Jacksons either require APCR or HEATFS, but just because it cannot be penned frontally doesnt mean it cannot be engaged frontally.

And, as I already stated today, a heavy tank full BR higher oughta have some armor capable of protecting it frontally, because otherwise, whats the damn point?

The M36B2 loses all its advantages over a King Tiger late in the match. A KT can one shot an M36 pretty much anywhere it wants (even without HE) however M36 needs careful aim and access to very specific spots.

@Herojure24

Yes and you keep choosing the jumbo for one specific reason.

It’s a very popular tank that highlights a major issue.

@Herojure24

Your specific scenario of having to attack a point defended by KTs in a jumbo?

Not just KT and not just Jumbo. Pretty much any attacker is at a major disadvantage.

@Herojure24

Yeah it can be both at the same time. Sure a plane can bomb a KT but a tank can also kill a KT thus making the plane a crutch by being a tool you use because you cannot perform with the tank to get rid of the threat.

Crutch implies you use it cause you lack skill.

CAS doesn’t solve a lack of skill (you need multiple kills to get it) it solves uneven playing fields.

[Beeschurger]

@Pangolin_Fan

You have heavy tanks and uptiers in pretty much every single Warthunder match.

and they are encountered in many various scenarios, some of them not requiring CAS to get rid of them in the first place.

@Pangolin_Fan

The tanks can’t kill the defending KT

That heavily depends on several factors that are almost always unique to the match at hand. Yes, sometimes the most effective way, but not the only way, to get rid of a good player in defending King Tiger. This feature will be kept by the new A2G ordnance SP cost system for ground battles which is the point of this thread.

@Pangolin_Fan

The M36B2 loses all its advantages over a King Tiger late in the match.

See the aforementioned point about this being heavily dependent on several factors.

@Pangolin_Fan

A KT can one shot an M36 pretty much anywhere it wants

yes, a 6.7 heavy tank can one shot 5.7 tank destroyer. I fail to see how it is bad.

@Pangolin_Fan

however M36 needs careful aim

*if engaging frontally. Again, I fail to see how it is bad, a 6.7 heavy tank should have effective frontal armor against 5.7 tank destroyer.

[Herojure24]

@Pangolin_Fan

You have heavy tanks and uptiers in pretty much every single Warthunder match.

No you don’t.

@Pangolin_Fan

This is why I said CAS fullfils the role that tanks can’t, and tanks fullfil the role that CAS can’t.

The tanks can’t kill the defending KT, and the CAS can’t cap the point, hence why both are needed.

Bu the tanks can kill the defending KT.

@Pangolin_Fan

It’s a very popular tank that highlights a major issue.

Does it highlight an isssue though? one of the rare tanks that have weak guns but good armour.

@Pangolin_Fan

Pretty much any attacker is at a major disadvantage.

And here we are again with the specific scenario. Yes attackers are at a disadvantage I will give you that. But that is when you change tactics to remedy that disadvantage. You needing CAS just shows you think that the only option is to just rush the defending tanks.

@Pangolin_Fan

Crutch implies you use it cause you lack skill.

Exactly. You lack skill to kill a tank in a certain position because you only engage frontaly it seems by your arguments

[Herojure24]

@Beeschurger

if engaging frontally. Again, I fail to see how it is bad, a 6.7 heavy tank should have effective frontal armor against 5.7 tank destroyer.

Just use the 5.0 IKV 103 then, that thing gets 400mm HEAT

[RunaDacino]

I don’t understand the obsession with “frontally pen.”

Tanks have 4 sides.

Front is only one of them.

If anything, your complaints should be about map design to allow for more flanking and ability to say “This fight is disadvantageous, I pull back and reposition to push a weaker flank.”

You know, interesting decision making.

In Dota 2, if the entire enemy team is sitting top that’s the perfect chance for you as pos 1 to push deep on bottom lane with wards and take their T2 and T1 towers. Maybe even threaten high-ground.

In air, if I go and chase an A-26 from above and behind in my Bf109G14 and get torn to shreds… do I complain that A-26 is OP? (I do complain about mouse click aiming for ASB but that’s general).

No.

I go and fly in front of and below the A-26B where its gun cannot point. I’d probably still get turn out because those things are terrifying if the player is paying attention.

You’re effectively complaining you can’t tail-chase an A-26B without dying.

Nerf A26B! A26B:

[Herojure24]

As I recall there is a tooltip that says to go for the sides of tanks. It is also one of the things shown in the ground forces tutorial.

[Beeschurger]

@Herojure24

that thing gets 400mm HEAT

hell, just bring large enough HE shell.

[Herojure24]

Yeah The M44 is nasty. That’s Why I don’t have it researched (apart from it being Copy paste into all the trees and France literally having 2 different AMX-13 chassis with artillery guns.)

[Beeschurger]

@RunaDacino

I don’t understand the obsession with “frontally pen.”

[Beeschurger]

@Herojure24

That’s Why I don’t have it researched

I will allow myself to have a hot take here, I hate self-propeled howitzers in their current form. They were never meant to engage other tanks with direct fire, at least for the most part, and for them to actually engage other tanks in direct fire, something must have gone terribly wrong. It ruins what little remaining immersion I had.

On top of that, I hate that some of them, like Pzh2000, are the most effective snipers at their BR thanks to being a 1998 vehicle with laser range finder at the BR where they fight 1960s tanks.

[Herojure24]

Yeah I’m with you on this one. Also being overpressured in a heavy tank by a 155mm shell is not fun at all. The only SPH I have is the Auf 1 and the swedish derp thing. And I barely play them.

[SHERMAN250]

@ULQ_LOVER

The difference is when You are in a plane You have a chance to not die ;)

@ULQ_LOVER

You can always spawn a tank and deal with him ;)

how to spawn a tank while trying not to die?

[Herojure24]

@SHERMAN250

@ULQ_LOVER

You can always spawn a tank and deal with him ;)

how to spawn a tank while trying not to die?

This the response to CAS arguments of just spawn SPAA. The smiley face makes it clear to me at least it’s the subversion of that argument. But we are again straying off topic.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@Beeschurger

and they are encountered in many various scenarios, some of them not requiring CAS to get rid of them in the first place.

And there’s many scenarios where CAS is needed.

@Beeschurger

That heavily depends on several factors that are almost always unique to the match at hand. Yes, sometimes the most effective way, but not the only way, to get rid of a good player in defending King Tiger. This feature will be kept by the new A2G ordnance SP cost system for ground battles which is the point of this thread.

Those unique factors are pretty common.

The main issue with the SP nerf is SPAA.

Take for example, an A-4E. You spawn in, you spot a Roland, you drop a walleye, he dies.

You think you’re clear to continue CAS duties, but then the Roland respawns with an Ozelot.

You drop a walleye, the ozelot goes boom, and now you’re out of guided bombs. No big deal, you still have short range options, e.g dumb bombs, rockets, or bullpups.

But low and behold, the ozelot player respawns into a Gepard 1A2, which means that again, you can’t use close range options, and now you’re out of long range options.

This has happened many times, and not just at 9.3. whilst Gajin is nerfing CAS so you can only have a single normal price spawn, SPAA is objectively easier to play whilst being extremely spammable even for players that don’t have a single kill.

It would be one thing if Gajin nerfed SPAA costs, along with CAS costs, however what they have planned right now is just a genuinely awful balance change.

@Beeschurger

I will allow myself to have a hot take here, I hate self-propeled howitzers in their current form.

I wouldn’t exactly call that a hot take.

[SHERMAN250]

sorry for that,but I was just go through the whole text,and I don‘t know that the topic has ended so I just reply him
by the way,I’m not a native speaker so my English is bad,hope you can get what I mean <3

[Herojure24]

@Pangolin_Fan

Take for example, an A-4E. You spawn in, you spot a Roland, you drop a walleye, he dies.

You think you’re clear to continue CAS duties, but then the Roland respawns with an Ozelot.

You drop a walleye, the ozelot goes boom, and now you’re out of guided bombs. No big deal, you still have short range options, e.g dumb bombs, rockets, or bullpups.

But low and behold, the ozelot player respawns into a Gepard 1A2, which means that again, you can’t use close range options, and now you’re out of long range options.

How often does it happen that a single player spawns 3 different SPAA?? I don’t think I have ever seen someone with thta many in the lineup though I admit I don’t pay much attention to that.

@Pangolin_Fan

SPAA is objectively easier to play whilst being extremely spammable even for players that don’t have a single kill.

Yes it is spammable but not easier in the slightest. You said yourself you just drop a walleye. Point and click while the SPAA has to actively try to shoot you down while you maneouver

[Herojure24]

No worries your english is fine. You should go check some other threads with chinese players. Those guys’ english is incomprehensible.

@SHERMAN250

sorry for that,but I was just go through the whole text,and I don‘t know that the topic has ended so I just reply him

No worries these threads usually devolve into the same arguments from older and closed threads. If you don’t have all of those read you might not know all the context. But no worries I just explained his argument as I am pretty sure that was what he meant.

unles @ULQ_LOVER says otherwise

[Beeschurger]

@Pangolin_Fan

And there’s many scenarios where CAS is needed

While it might be the most effective option, its not always needed.

@Pangolin_Fan

The main issue with the SP nerf is SPAA.

Take for example, an A-4E. You spawn in, you spot a Roland, you drop a walleye, he dies.

You think you’re clear to continue CAS duties, but then the Roland respawns with an Ozelot.

You drop a walleye, the ozelot goes boom, and now you’re out of guided bombs. No big deal, you still have short range options, e.g dumb bombs, rockets, or bullpups.

But low and behold, the ozelot player respawns into a Gepard 1A2, which means that again, you can’t use close range options, and now you’re out of long range options.

“I took out two enemy vehicles in the single CAS run and i cant take out third one”

What prevents you from landing back at airfield and rearming and engaging the Gepard with the same ordnance later?

@Pangolin_Fan

SPAA is objectively easier to play

As opposed to spamming spacebar few times outside of effective engagement range?

@Pangolin_Fan

whilst being extremely spammable

because it is completly sane thing to do, filling three different crew slots with SPAA.

@Pangolin_Fan

even for players that don’t have a single kill.

almost as if SPAAs are support vehicles in the first place.

They still require SP to spawn, and require a crew slot to have in the lineup in the first place.

@Pangolin_Fan

along with CAS costs, however what they have planned right now is just a genuinely awful balance change.

Its great change. It keeps the utility CAS provides, makes surviving the CAS run that much more important, prevents CAS spam and keeps the ability to spawn a CAP plane.