Changes to Bomber Survivability

[Loofah]

I loved every type of tank. But artillery that could randomly 1-shot you across the map and made people (including me) hug walls and ridges 24/7 was NOT fun.
It was low skill and very random, of course there was some skill for getting a correct lead on a medium or light tank speeding across the map, but it was nothing compared to what a good heavy user had to know and learn (every weakspot, ability to judge yours and enemy angles to a single degree, dodging and baiting shots via movement, damn I was good at heavies).

Artillery was similar to WT, where the core of bomber gameplay is pressing space. Using gunners has always been too much to ask from 95% of bomber playerbase.

[PercussionCap]

@Loofah

Pulling 12G at low speed is less of a problem than pulling 12Gs at high speed.

@Loofah

if you have a steel support that is normally subjected to 100kg, that can survive 1200kg, and another support that normally is subjectednto 50kg, but can survive 600kg, which one will be easier to destroy?

The implication in the reply is that the Zero turned poorly at high speed due to a lack of structural strength and not because of the control setup. Which is just plain wrong. And battle damage is irrelevant here.

---

Anyway, I’ve now played the update. I’m once again sealclubbing in the Ki-109.

I watched a B5N ram a Catalina right in front of me and nothing happened.

I’ve watched several of my 75mm HE shells hit bombers and only set a fire that went out very quickly and dealt no significant damage.

My own bomber-buffed plane has had an engine fire and yet I could casually fly across the map to land; I could still take full-commit head-ons with cannon-armed fighters and be pretty much unaffected; I could still sit in front of other bombers’ gunners to bring them down.

Not much has changed, except that those same 75mm HE shells feel a little more reliable if you get a hit right on the tail. Although this is against very low BR bombers and other times they just tank them anyway.

[DEMON_ANGEL9]

This change is good for small calliber guns, like 12.7mm.
But not good for cannons, because gaijin makes projectiles penetrate bomber well.
And they didn’t nerf bomber’s module HP so you still can’t kill it easily.
The only way is using AP rounds to kill the pilot.
That’s why 50cal is good for intercepting bombers.

[Spitprk]

I tried a few bombers in Naval EC, there a bomber can be sniped and killed from 12Km away. So all you need is a warship to kill bombers

[Loofah]

@PercussionCap

The implication in the reply is that the Zero turned poorly at high speed due to a lack of structural strength and not because of the control setup. Which is just plain wrong.

What implication?
Seriously, who the hell wrote something like that, because I sure as hell did not.

I wrote that Zero did NOT pull 12G at high speed, which is a fact. So the 12G rating of Zero is not the same as 12G rating of P-51, due to different speed/turn rate curve and due to completely different weight and wing loading. BTW you can’t even tell if it could survive 12G at high speed, as it was literally impossible to achieve unless some hydraulics would be involved, and IMO therr’s a difference between “can take 12Gs” and

Again, my example was pretty clear, wing that has to take higher load will be SIGNIFICANTLY harder to destroy under normal load than wing designed for lower load even if both can take same Gs, and the low load wing has to be rarwd for much higher Gs to have same amount of “excess strength”. End of topic.

Now, I’ll just keep playing T18B with 57mm cannon till morale improves. It also wins energy fights vs Bf 109 F4, because why the hell not.

[Juni_Windflower]

See, yes, the AP rounds do work decently, but again first off the bombers IRL does NOT require AP rounds to kill and in fact HEI was known to be better, and if I have the potential to target 12 players out of the 16 player lobby why would I load my belts to target only 4 of the 16 player lobby? it’s unreasonable to think that it’s acceptable for fighters to load dedicated belts to kill bombers.

Anyway I think we got all the problems well documented in this thread already, but it’s just very unlikely that gaijin would ever take a look at this and go “wait a minute, bombers are supposed to have <1mm of RHA equivalence on their wings!!! 20mm is supposed to do damage to bombers with HEI rounds!!! wait what??? crazy!!!”

[PercussionCap]

@Loofah

What implication?
Seriously, who the hell wrote something like that, because I sure as hell did not.

@Loofah

So the 12G rating of Zero is not the same as 12G rating of P-51, due to different speed/turn rate curve and due to completely different weight and wing loading.

It is. You are confusing other aerodynamic loads with simple load factor. A loaded P-51D could not exceed 6G safely.

@Loofah

BTW you can’t even tell if it could survive 12G at high speed, as it was literally impossible to achieve unless some hydraulics would be involved, and IMO therr’s a difference between “can take 12Gs” and

And what?

I doubt P-51 could get to 12G either. Pilots did say it handled “like a truck” at high speed.

@Loofah

wing that has to take higher load will be SIGNIFICANTLY harder to destroy under normal load than wing designed for lower load even if both can take same Gs

And in the case of B-17 it can barely get above 2G before blowing a wing off. Doesn’t seem very strong to me.

[Rinhord]

@Juni Windflower

I wanna give a perspective on the problem as someone that has a over 6.6 K/D on the most flied prop I have, the J6K1, having over 1600 kills

Just a reality check…
Are you sure about that? the skill issue thing? Usually you need to be quite a bit better before even talking about it… but okay, you do you… just saying its a bit much maybe.

btw, when timezone youre playing in? Cause outsite of EU prime time AirRB gets 500% “easier” to play, thanks to smaller teamsizes and less brainfreeze teams… so K/D or whatever, especially in planes… is as you “pro” should know, extremely manipulative depending on when you play.

And your expirience with the pilots snipes in bombers, what ammo did you used? Its already very known that you need penetrating ammo, as everything HE will not properly penetrate and cause the shell of a bomber is not degradable on the physical model the first shell will not rip a hole into the bomber so the second shell goes into it.

Bombers mains are usually below 50 bots… ehm players… almost all of them have no bloody clue of what they talk about… they dont know the game, thats why they sitting in a bomber… they dont play for pvp… thats why they sit in a bomber…

[RXDimA]

Repaired this in 1 min 45 sec, snapped my tail on landing as I could only control pitch with flaps.

The Ki-102 is pretty good at bomber hunting, and can fight fighters too.

[Juni_Windflower]

Please check the stats of my recently flown vehicles, as this is not a second account and I don’t intend to make a second account.
Perhaps look at the stats I have in the J6K1 for instance, it would take you just one button click!

I’m not great at jets, so if you check my overall stats I would be dragged down by my jet gameplay.
Oh, and, I play from 8pm london to 2pm (overnight) london time, and because I don’t live in london, I play in NA servers. You instantly assumed I’m just trying to be manipulative with my K/D ratio but this is just how I perform nowadays in a plane I have a lot of experience in.

It also doesn’t seem that you even disagree with the point I’m trying to make, you’re simply trying to be antagonizing and you didn’t even do it right. Please next time realize that there are casual players in this game. I do not play competitive, I am not playing this game because I make money from it. I play casually to have fun, and because of the amount of hours I have in it, I got naturally very good.

I play during the peak of US servers when everybody gets home from work, the lobbies are very much full and I hate smaller lobbies because I can’t get that many kills in them. I’ve come up on top in 1v7 engagements before (not saying I’m not lucky, I definitely was). Next time, before you start randomly antagonizing people perhaps check the name of the thread: “Changes to Bomber survivability”, add to that conversation, and read the stat page “[] monthly stats” and check that box. Not everyone cares that much about their account history.

I forgot I didn’t comment on the belts I was using: I was indeed using HEI belts, and I’m fully aware I am. Again as I have stated in the previous post, I do not intend to engage bombers as I feel that my fragile aircraft is just a free kill to them. I never load APHE belts due to my cannons having an extremely low fire rate and I want to make sure every hit counted. It’s completely ridiculous that the round designed to take down bombers, HEI, is now worse than APHE. Again this is a thread about “Changes to bomber survivability”, so I’m talking about the “changes to bomber survivability”, not boasting about my skills. I’m using my most flown plane as an example simply because I have the most experience in it, and that I feel it is fair to believe someone with stats this good would have somewhat of a say in the matter. Even if I’m just barely above average, the standpoint I have in it still proves that more than 50% of the playerbase will find this model difficult and unbalanced.

[ALULA_21E-psn]

I think the way the outer skin is handled has the most negative impact on the bomber damage model as well. In the current DM, it just punches a hole where the hit lands, and no matter how many holes you put in it, it never cracks or peels away.It feels exactly like poking a pencil into a bar of soap.
The visual damage is so unrealistic that interceptors have no idea when they should stop attacking. Sometimes you’re thinking “Why won’t it go down!?” and then a shoot down judgment suddenly triggers, leaving you feeling completely deflated.

I think bombers should have a damage indicator displayed the same way tanks do.

[Juni_Windflower]

Agreed. The current damage model does still take damage if it’s a ridiculously big shell, but smaller shots appear to do no real damage to it, not enough to deal enough HP of damage to be able to actually show up. The HP that the bomber skin has is way too high.

Additionally, I noticed I’ve taken elevators off bombers and I didn’t get “servere damage”. This doesn’t make sense really? Maybe if your controls are taken out there’s a force to leave aircraft in 15 seconds thing to make it more realistic and fair.

[Real_K_Soze]

@Juni Windflower

I’m using my most flown plane as an example simply because I have the most experience in it, and that I feel it is fair to believe someone with stats this good would have somewhat of a say in the matter. Even if I’m just barely above average, the standpoint I have in it still proves that more than 50% of the playerbase will find this model difficult and unbalanced.

Seeing your posts as quite reasonable a few things to think about:

1. You hit the core of the topic - but you weaken your argument as you play a BR 6.7 aircraft which sees mainly (except cannon armed Lincolns/Shackletons) way less dangerous bomber opposition than you face at lower BRs. The apex predator G8N1 plays always in your team. The BR 5.0 Be-6 and its CHN copy create a 2 - 2.5 km death bubble with their 23mm turrets around them and are actually way harder to kill.

2. As your reasoning is very mature you are weakening your position without any necessity with mentioning a J6K1. Flying a JP prop at this BR on NA server peak times is killing your entire skill argument. With this amount of played games you should score around 10-15:1 rather effortlessly as your average opponent is clueless, especially at this BR and on NA server.

@Juni Windflower

the standpoint I have in it still proves that more than 50% of the playerbase will find this model difficult and unbalanced.

I do agree to that - but from my pov 90% of the player base had even before this buff severe difficulties to play Air RB in the way you would like to see it.

There is a reason why low skill (=turn fighters) aircraft (except USSR props) see BR increase after BR increase - the player base lacks on average the experience and patience to kill way slower turn fighters or meta planes in general which proves unbalanced game play.

So technically seen the buff just added an additional layer of complexity which renders gained fighter experience borderline useless as even untrained players have now a chance to influence the outcome.

That means that the discussion focuses way too much on PvE planes slaughtering PvP planes whilst ignoring that PvP action was broken long before.

[Juni_Windflower]

Well man, I don’t know what I can tell you. I gotta fight Me-262 C2Bs in that thing… La200s, and BIs.

@Real K Soze@live

but you weaken your argument as you play a BR 6.7 aircraft which sees mainly (except cannon armed Lincolns/Shackletons) way less dangerous bomber opposition than you face at lower BRs. The apex predator G8N1 plays always in your team

Doesnt’ that strengthen my argument because even someone that doesn’t have it the worst still argues it’s bad.

@Real K Soze@live

The apex predator G8N1 plays always in your team.

The G8N is always on my team, but I never even try to participate in the bomber problem.

@Real K Soze@live

you should score around 10-15:1 rather effortlessly as your average opponent is clueless

This is rather horrible to say to the other players, please pick your words. The claim of 10K/D is above my skill level. I am not a god, I’m a casually good player. My plane gets set on fire on one hit. I’m approaching 7 K/D as I post this though, about the best I can do is there.

@Real K Soze@live

I do agree to that - but from my pov 90% of the player base had even before this buff severe difficulties to play Air RB in the way you would like to see it.

I know they struggle, I’m talking about fair competition. the difficulty I’m referring to is aiming for pilot snipes without dying to the gunners.

@Real K Soze@live

There is a reason why low skill (=turn fighters) aircraft (except USSR props) see BR increase after BR increase - the player base lacks on average the experience and patience to kill way slower turn fighters

This already proves I’m flying an overtiered plane. I’m in a struggle too, what else do you want from me

@Real K Soze@live

So technically seen the buff just added an additional layer of complexity which renders gained fighter experience borderline useless as even untrained players have now a chance to influence the outcome.

We already agree with each other, but you still need to say “skill issue though!” instead of contributing something useful to the conversation. The thread is named “Changes to Bomber Survivability” not "If Juni Windflower is a good player. Thank you for the additional toxic “Skill issue”; Perhaps you can join the other 9 people that liked my post, and reply with your own experiences.

I clarified that I’m offering my perspective, and I am no competitive player. I stated the truth with my own statistics, and whatever you think of it is whatever you make of it. Keep your opinions about others to yourself, I’m sure your teachers in school taught that.

Edit: I just checked your stats and I would say you are certainly a creature, 13k kills in the B7A2, and it looks like this isn’t your first account either with how clean your kill record is. You undoubtedly have more experience in the game, and with 13k+ kills in just one plane, it’s very impressive. You seem to have a rather black and white reading of the situation: Either you’re good, or you’re bad. Perhaps you should be reminded of the fact that people with more than 1 K/D on players is actually ahead of the curve. Be mindful there are people who may not be as good as you, but are still good. You don’t have to try to force your superiority complex on everyone.

[Real_K_Soze]

@Juni Windflower

We already agree with each other

That is obvious - but you missed my point. I gave just a feedback why you weakened your mature views with not helpful details which were aimed at adding credibility but are actually lowering it.

That means i see the core similar - but you should consider that feedback in a public forum might be addressing points you had not on your radar.

If i would be toxic i would have argued differently. An example:

@Juni Windflower

instead of contributing something useful to the conversation

I can claim that i expressed my views multiple times in this thread and that is no reason to repeat these in infinite loops.A short search would have proved this.

I would claim that these two claims:

@Juni Windflower

The thread is named “Changes to Bomber Survivability”

@Juni Windflower

Again as I have stated in the previous post, I do not intend to engage bombers as I feel that my fragile aircraft is just a free kill to them.

kicks you out of the debate as you refuse to deal with a challenge as soon it gets complicated.

Finally:

@Juni Windflower

Keep your opinions about others to yourself, I’m sure your teachers in school taught that.

This looks like an emotional reaction to a fact based feedback. Not sure if you noticed that i see the situation almost identical - but have simply different views on the game in general.

Edit: Based on editing the mentioned post:

@Juni Windflower

I just checked your stats and I would say you are certainly a creature

This is just another aspect of how misleading stats can be.

I fly exclusively aircraft with a very stable flight model and pleasant handling, no matter what type they are as i use a Hotas without instructor and not mouse aim which is outside pure 1 vs 1s a severe disadvantage.

That means my kills are just a byproduct of playing the game and not the sole purpose. Otherwise i would not limit myself by playing on xbox with the sole certified Hotas/JS.

@Juni Windflower

You seem to have a rather black and white reading of the situation: Either you’re good, or you’re bad.

No - i just see the often mentioned “skill” as it is - plain game experience. That means even a slow learner has as soon as he has 10days (240h) fighter game time a way higher experience level than 90% of his opponents. Prop Air RB is no rocket science.

@Juni Windflower

. Be mindful there are people who may not be as good as you, but are still good. You don’t have to try to force your superiority complex on everyone.

I am far away from even remotely claiming that i would be “good” - i just play the game for other reasons and with a different approach than most of the players. So with your claim of forcing a “superiority complex” you indirectly express an “inferiority complex” - not sure if you have realized this.

[Juni_Windflower]

I’ve stated that we agree with each other, and this thread is to discuss the situation about bomber survivability. The point has been addressed, our replies are pointless to the conversation.

[Juni_Windflower]

I am horribly sorry about the whole argument that happened here, and I’m sorry that my replies have taken so much space in the thread. My only goal is to contribute to this conversation, therefore for those of you that believes the bomber damage model needs an overhaul, the bug report link is here: Community Bug Reporting System
If you believe you wish to add to the bug report (please do), please leave comments on the matter so we can help Gaijin properly balance bombers to a point of which is historically accurate and hopefully, balanced for gameplay. Our ramblings on the forums are mostly ignored by Gaijin, therefore we should channel our anger to the bug report page, not just here.

[こもおじちゃん]

It’s almost pointless to even engage bombers if your in 9.0-10.0 SAMs. They get hit by 4 missles and then keep flying for 3 minutes burning. Whoever designed and approved this should be fired, period. It’s stupid and bad gameplay. I don’t get how any of this got to live servers. Typical Gaijin…

[Gnza10091441]

@ALULA_21E-psn

In the current DM, it just punches a hole where the hit lands, and no matter how many holes you put in it, it never cracks or peels away.It feels exactly like poking a pencil into a bar of soap.

It seems the game skips any dynamic calculation that subtract lift based on the actual, accumulated area of holes in the wing surface area. Instead, it just applies predefined, stepped damage states that trigger under arbitrary thresholds. For example, the model appears to equate the lift loss from the blast hole of a 20mm HE (~0.35 m²) with that of 12.7mm AP holes, which remove barely ~0.0001267 m² each, since both turn the wing section yellow.

[Rinhord]

Woah hold on brother, i am no against you bro. Its just a know fact, i am trying to pointing that out thats its pretty meh to talk about it, cause “stats” are not equal to everyone, as its depents strongly on what/when/where u play.

Even a dumbass like me gets this “stats” for airRB in the “recent stats”… and they mean nothing, as i basiaclly mostly played the fw190-f8 to hunt the bombers at midnight times + testing the bombers.

I thing its a good habbit in general to point out what state of game knowledge people have, otherwise no one know who they talk to…
but at the same time you also always need to mention that on certain “skill” levels vehicles also differ drastically…
i can play a bomber and also i am capable of hitting fighters very good with my gunners… because i have many hours in them from years ago… i can do that, i am lethal to anyone coming to close, i am also the bomber player that throws away his bombs and hunts ground + fighters, always have.

My playstyle of bombers is very dangerous to the enemy, as i force them to get me, either they kill me, or i kill ground for ticket win.

With that in mind, i state same as you, bombers are way to survivable atm. If there would be a tournament with same RB winning conditions and free choice of plane, i guess my whole team would use a bomber because of it.

But because i follow this topic for a while and know how people are, its still very clear that most bomber players are absolutly not interessted in winning, fighting or pvp. Thats what makes it on the one hand even more frustrating when these half afk players can mess your best fighter player up… on the other hand you can still ignore them as most of them are not even trying to go for ticket bleed or hunting fighters…
just once a not half afk player gets his hand on one, then the real big drama starts.

and that is smt that need to be very clearly included in everyone reporting in the forum… what pov they have, what expirience level they have. Cause theres to many people just claiming its bad or good how it is… without realising that they are not the middle of the universe and it has to be balanced throughout all “skill” levels and not just “theirs”