it was not
The changes if they arrive unchanged, will come when the Sky Odyssey update releases. Which is likely going to be next week or more likely the week after
Thanks you for the answer
OK thanks you for the answer .
1 Like
So that the suggestions are preserved after the dev forum closes, im going to repost my suggested changes to the damage model here:
So, Changes that are needed so far imo
- Add additional internal modules/parts such as Control veins or oil, hydraulic, fuel lines that can be damaged and destroyed. Including making the modules more accurate and to proper scale. The engines for example are tiny with their current, old and basic models. Another module as suggested by @Cmdr_Deeno could be the oxygen supply for the crew, and appropriate mechanics regarding loss of consciousness if flying too high for too long without functional oxygern supply module(s)
Spoiler
The wings are basically empty, and the engines only take up a tiny part of the housing currently.
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Overhaul Fuel tanks. Not only increasing their size to appropriate scale but also retune self-sealing tank to deal with a limited amount of smaller calibre hits but for it to have limits, including large shells and large numbers of small hits, at which point, the tanks could at best, drain rapidly, at worse actually set on fire too (essentially have the self-sealing disable after suffecient damage has been dealt to them). Large impacts such as from 75mm shells or even missiles should not be sealed.
Fuel tanks also never seem to catch on fire which doesnt make any sense and repeated 75mm HE impacts dont cause fuel tank explosions as they should
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increase the shrapnel damage from HE rounds hitting the airframe, that way crew and internal modules could be better damaged (@OliverXRed testing in this post shows some pretty insane nonsense going on with the damage dealt by HE, in that its spall inherits the pen of the round, which for non-AP, is naturally, very low. The result is that HE is very unlikely to deal any internal damage)
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separate the vertical and horizontal stabiliers from the rest of the tail damage model, so these parts could be damaged and destroyed seperately to the rest of the tail, and given appropriate, proportional resistance to damage
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add aerodynamic impacts as damage to the wings accumulates. Even if they arent sheered off, they should still provide less lift and control as “holes” are blown into them, making the aircraft harder to handle. @Ion_492 Made a good suggestion that the leading edges of the wings should be added as damagable parts too.
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Add code so that IR missiles target the correct part of the aircraft, not centre mass. This gurantees they then hit the engines/wings and do the correct amount of damage. Currently, they hit centre mass/the tail and their damage can be a bit inconsistant (though still will usually take out the control surface on the tail). They would not be so if they targetted the correct part of the aircraft. Typically. it will be IR missiles that will be encountering bombers, so this would be the most relevant change for missiles vs the new damage models
This could be done using the same code used for ASMs which target 1 of 3 fixed points across the ship, instead of centre mass. Aircraft could have a target point within the engine and the IR missile just goes for the closest target point, this in future can also be used for IIR missile targeting cockpits
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Overhaul fire damage and how it works;
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Put a limit on how many times fire extinguishers can be used (though I will be honest, I thought there was already a limit?) (Maybe also a limit on what size fires they are effective on/make them a module that can be damaged and destroyed?)
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Make engine fires last far longer, and basically not extinguish unless fuel starved or EFS is used
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Fire propergation mechanics could also be explored?
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Fire damage to structural intergrity of the wing could also be refined.
Though I think they should also add an easier way to switch off damaged engines, which could then also stop the fire if its in the engine, which I think would be fair
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Give bombers finite ammo, currently they can reload once they run out of ammo, and so can keep going infinitely. This makes them incredibly difficult to deal with in a fighter, as they can just keep firing without a care.
Though, artificial turret spread and ideally, the ability to fire the turrets from first person needs ot be added to improve accuracy. Current ammo counts must also be displayed
I think this would add the right balance between bombers being made of wet paper mache and adamantium
7 Likes
I thought it might also be worth posting some of the more important things I found during testing, so as you mentioned, that they don’t get lost when the dev server section gets closed.
The afformentioned post about the shrapnel damage from HE rounds hitting the airframe
Currently it looks like if a HE type round that detonates on the surface of something like a fuselage because it doesn’t have enough kinetic penetration to penetrate the skin, the fragmentation it creates upon exploding, doesn’t actually penetrate the target and do any damage to the things inside such as crew.
Example of the 30mm HEI-T on the MK 103 against a Wellington bomber, the HEI-T of the MK 103 has 3.7mm High-explosive penetration and 4,3mm Fragmentation penetration. The skin of the fuselage of the Wellington bomber has 3mm of protection.
Shot at 0m where it has 6mm Kinetic penetration
Shot at 2000m where it has 1mm Kinetic penetration
What this show is that the fragmentation from HE rounds do no damage, if the HE round itself doesn’t go through the surface it is being shot at.
Honestly, one of the things they need to do, is separate the damage model of the airframe from the damage model of the skin. With this the airframe could be strong, while the skin is weaker.
If a plane loose to much of its skin, it looses its lift, while if its airframe gets damaged enough, it could break in worst cases.
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First follow up post with more testing showing the behaviour of HEI as it was on the dev server
It looks like there is some kind of threshold for the TNTe of HE rounds, for their HE explosion being able to penetrate the skin and do damage. On the MK 108, the HEI-T with 90g TNTe, cannot do damage to the gunners, while the HEI with 102g TNTe can do damage to the gunners:
HEI-T with 90g TNTe
HEI with 102g TNTe
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Second follow up post with more testing showing the behaviour of HEI as it was on the dev server
I think it might be Legacy in regards to the way it does damage, however it looks like the skin of the Wellington were increased from 1mm to 3mm, which is why a lot of HE don’t do damage with fragmentation to something like the crew, because they don’t have enough HE pen to be able to penetrate the skin.
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A response to a video by @PercussionCap where they were in a Do 17, and their wings took no real damage from a F4U-7 shooting continuously at them.
Honestly, from what i can see from the video, is that one of the problems is that as soon as the flaps gets destroyed (becomes black), they are still there and then works as a bullet sponge. Meaning that after the flaps have been shot off, it then works as a piece of protection for the rest of the wing, making the rest of the wing take nearly no damage. I think this is probably the main reason why the wings are so tanky as they are from the rear.
If it worked, where after the flaps were destroyed , then the wing spar would be exposed and then could begin to be damaged, it would be probably be better.
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An analysis to what probably happened in the video mentioned in the response above. And a suggestion on how to fix it with visualisation.
I would maybe also say that the damage model needs to be able to be destroyed, in the sense of that it gets destroyed the more that it is hit in specific spots. That if you for example were constantly shooting into the same spot, you would more or less dig a hole in the the damage model.
Because from what have know and have seen, if you damage the flaps, such that they are destroyed, their damage model is still there. Which i think were one of the reason why the damaged didn’t really transfer over into the wing structure after the flaps were destroyed in the video of this post:
Changes to Bomber Survivability Feedback and Discussion - #822 by PercussionCap
For visualisation, this is how I interpret how the damage model works in regards to shooting the rear of the wing into the flaps with HE rounds. And how by the damage model getting smaller/destroyed, it could fix it.
First you start of with the wing section, with the flaps and the solid lighter blue, being the airframe in the wing:
If you shoot into the rear of the wing with HE, it penetrates a bit, and then explodes:
This causes the flap to be damaged:
If you shoot into the flap again, it penetrates a bit, and then explodes:
That would in the end cause the flap to be destroyed, which shows as black on the damage model ingame:
From my understanding, even if it is black, and visually it is gone, the flap is still part of the damage model. So if you shoot another HE shell into what you think is the rear part of the actual wing, you hit the dead flaps instead, and it explodes in the flap, which will continue to happen:
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What would maybe fix it, would be after it gets destroyed, it is actually not an actual part of the damage model anymore:
So if you shot a HE into the wing, it would instead hit the rear of the actual wing and then detonate in the wing:
This would then cause damage to the actual wing instead of the HE detonating in the dead flap and doing no damage. This would be something that could be added on top of more damage sections for bombers:
With the current damage model on the dev server, the problem feels as if damage doesn’t really accumulate if you shoot into the bombers with too small of a cannon, which includes the 20mm cannons. Only when you get up to the big ones, like 30mm, does it feel as if they actually take damage.
Of cause, something like a .50 cal should do no or nearly no damage to the skin of an aircraft, since it punches right through. But a 20mm HE exploding on the skin of an aircraft needs to do some damage.
The biggest problem is just how much damage does each round need to do to different things. The amount of damage they do on the live server is too much, I think nearly all can agree on this.
While the amount of damage they do on the dev server can be too little, adequate or still too much, which is what people are arguing about.
A single shot from a .50 cal should not break the tail of a big bomber, however the same spot of a wing section should at the same time not be able to absorb the entire 200 rounds of 20mm from something of a Bf 109 F-4.
So it is very much about finding that healthy balance, for both bombers and the things shooting at bombers.
3 Likes
All of this and Gaijin / Oxys statement of ‘You’re not meant to destroy bombers mid air but rather bring them down’ makes me feel like the ‘severe damage’ mechanic might need a slight rework for bombers specifically.
With this upcoming buff to bombers Big caliber AA guns could finally be useful. Could we see this be added soon to help ground players combat bombers? Kommandogerät auf Fahrgestell VOMAG 7 OR 660
Not entirely. That’s only half of the issue. I didn’t include it because it would be way too much time of just hearing impact noises, but eventually one of my fuel tanks was completely damaged:
And then one of my oil tanks:
Despite this, there was no fuel leak, no oil leak, and I was never set on fire. The only thing that could bring me down was the extra drag.
This is in complete opposition to how they say, in this very news post, that we should exploit to take out bombers - fuel, engines, and oil systems.
the game is unplayable, you have bombers spawn camping you, i supported this but not in this level you cant do anything…
bro this buff is too much, it takes around 5 or 6 people to killa single bomber, have to kamakazi them to kill them or ignore them all match and let the game run out of time, unplayeable
2 Likes
not to mention the b52 still tanks about 5 or 6 120D’s
Well, it turned out exactly as I imagined. If you improve bomber survivability but don’t touch fighter survivability at all, you lose a wing the moment a single 20mm HE round hits you. The only thing that saves you a bit is that the damage from the American 12.7mm guns isn’t exaggerated.
2 Likes
Finally we can all play bombers with one hand while scrolling tiktok/instagram/whatever, completely oblivious to the entire enemy team, and just mindlessly bomb stationary undefended targets!
This is truly what will improve air rb!
4 Likes
Yup, current state is probably the most insulting thing they did to the playerbase
“Just aim better” they say, have fun with this replay
Low tier is pretty unplayable now lol
this was a 75mm HE shell from Ki-109 directly impacting right over the fuel tank of that TB-3
He then said in chat it did basically nothing! The next shot only killed him because the pilot died, otherwise he would have survived that too.
His plane then landed itself on the sand below.
I shot a second TB-3 that same match:
So all you need to do, with an artillery cannon strapped to your plane, is aim for the wingtips. Easy!
2 Likes
I’ve found that the F-82s death laser of 14 .50s is somewhat reliable at taking down bombers, but when a single .50 or 20mm easily takes out your engine(s), it’s way too risky for the reward.
Also severe damage needs to be reworked so heavy damage to the airframe, as well as losing controls or control surfaces should count as severe damage, or you should atleast get a full kill reward when the burning bomber you damaged 5 minutes ago crashes.
3 Likes
2 air kills and one severe later
i’ve been shot and hit by a T18B 57, 109 G6, and F4U-4
i’m still completely flyable!
edit:
(later match) this is the result of being magdumped by two i225s, having a fuel tank on fire, and being rammed by one of them (he died doing it)
3 Likes
Are these changes also to fighters and twin engine stuff? Wings and tails don’t just break off for all aircraft, not just bombers.
Only if they are derived from bombers, like Ki-109 and TIS MA