Change the BR of the Maus

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
344

Yes it would, in fact. Assume the Maus is at 7.0 as I am proposing. It has a 232mm turret face. Even with rebuffs, APCR would struggle to penetrate heavily-angled armor, because that is in fact realistic. But the “shell shattered” crap is not.

Properly-modeled 76mm M93 on the Jumbo 76, T20, or someone’s uptiered M4A3 76 would penetrate 248-260mm, which is enough to pen a Maus at close range, and easily enough to pen its side from quite a distance.

Properly modelled 76mm 17pdr APDS on the Centurions and Black Prince would pen 270mm and actually spall well unlike now. This would go through the turret easily and the sides laughably so.

Properly modeled 76mm M319 APCR and 76mm M331A2 APDS would pen 300-320mm, while spalling very well once they pen. Again, these would laugh at a Maus unless it angles all the time.

Properly modeled 90mm M304 APCR would pen 320mm, and spall more than the 76mm M93.

Properly modeled 90mm T44 on the Super Pershing would utterly laugh at a Maus with 373mm penetration.

Properly modeled postwar M332 and M332A1 APCR would cease to be fair against a Maus even with angling, penetrating 390mm and 425mm respectively.

Properly modeled 105mm T29E3 would pen 381mm, and spall more so.

The T34 already doesn’t even need APCR, but its properly-modeled APCR would pen 450mm and spall magnificently.

Russia has no good APCR rounds to speak of, but properly modeling those would turn the postwar 85mm BR-367 and the T-34/57’1943’s 57mm BR-271P into very competent ammunition to kill a Maus at least through the sides if the need arose.

And in the odd mirror matches, German APCR if properly modeled would also be capable of killing it. Long 88 would get 305mm, the fake 105mm on the KT105 would get nearly 400mm, and the Panther 75mm would get 270mm or so.

Don’t waste your time with him, trust me.

345

So how it works then?

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346

Would be insanely broken, possibly worse than BMPT

In one thin strip which quickly becomes far better

Not how gaijin works. The APCR pen it has now is what it will always have. Even if it did have your penetration numbers, this would provide very low chances of penetration and even lower chances of actual damage

I’m not going to say this again everytime you say “the pen should be higher” but thats not how gaijin works

Very few tanks get apds below 7.7 btw, you listed a rare premium here as one of the examples

Skipping forward past all these examples…

Not only are you asking for gaijin to radically change how APCR penetrates, but you’re also asking gaijin to radically change how they SPALL as well, AND you’re hoping that this apcr buff somehow counters a SEVEN POINT OH MAUS

You literally, read this: Literally want the Maus to be 0.3br higher than the Tiger 2 after this, when the Tiger 2 itself is already considered on the high end of 6.7 in the current game. It’s already one of the best 6.7 tanks in the game. Even turbo buffing APCR would not make this ok.

No, what’s really going to happen in any real game is the T-34 is never going to get this shot off that magically kills the maus and the maus is just going to glance in the general direction of the T-34 and nuke it. Even with all your buffs, this is still a highly impractical shot.

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347

CAS is part of an ecosystem. CAS existing at all does not make it unbalanced. The controls for CAS are supposed to be SP cost, SPAA, and fighters

348

Saying it is a part of ecosystem implies that without it there would be an issue, the thing is that without CAS there is no issue as ground B.R. is decided upon the vehicle capability against other ground units.

SP costs don’t work as You can eaisly get into an air unit that is able to destroy best tanks of enemy team after capping a zone and landing a hit. Sometimes assist is enough.

SPAAs in most B.R. lack effective range.

Fighters can be used in role of CAS. At lower B.R., 12.7mm is enough to destory Panzer IVs.

No matter what change You bring, air will always be unbalanced against ground units.

349

And that is precisely what I mean when I say “properly modeled” - it would have correct pen AND actually good postpen.

I am well aware the round doesn’t work now, to the point where most of its would-be historical opponents are helpless against it. I am simply stating that the claim of it being “game-breaking” is entirely artificial due to those old nerfs to its pen, postpen, and shattering mechanics.

Yes I am, and I am quite serious here in doing so. The Maus is barely better than the T95 in most situations. Currently its historical opponents which should kill it simply can’t pen it at all or if they can they do fuck all for damage. That has always been the problem from my experience - and there is no need for it to remain like such.

Against a skilled Maus player who monitors his surroundings, no. But assuming its the average blind German main versus the average blind Russian main, I’d expect shots like that to occur on a regular basis.

350

Some, I don’t care to get into this particular line of thought with you, do believe yes, that this would cause massive issues with camping/heavy tanks/etc.

  • ULQ_LOVER’s opinion with no evidence

So raise the costs when it makes sense? Now all of a sudden SP costs do work, crazy right? CAS isn’t inherently unbalanced. You can move around the constraints.

SPAAs in most BRs are fully capable of being a cas counter.

And?

And? This has nothing to do with them also being a valid counter. Further, just shooting tanks is obviously not all that effective with .50 cals or 20mms by themselves.

You sound ridiculous. Let’s make even a clean wing plane cost 3000 spawn points. Oh, all of a sudden CAS is no longer an issue and never gets spanwed? OH, so CAS ISN’T inherently a problem and the problem lies in the constraints placed upon it?

351

If all you’re doing is talking about what you think should likely happen, but you do understand that they won’t happen, then I have no reason to talk bad about your ideas. However, I speak on the game itself in the real world and whats going to actually happen or whats likely to happen. You’re basically saying the Maus could be balanced in an entirely different game and even in this perfect world where gaijin does all the right changes, I’d still sooner see the Maus at 7.3 or even staying 7.7 way before I see it as only 0.3br above the Tiger 2…

This isn’t required. It takes an immense amount of effort to get directly horizontal to a maus compared to just driving around in a maus bouncing 90% of whats shot at you by default regardless of your positioning or angling choices

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352

If it was an opinion then low tier plane would’t be enough to kill top tier tank without this tank being able to do anything about it.

To what point and why? No matter how You raise it it is still unbalanced as again, a person in a tank can’t do anything about it.

Open top SPAAs can be destroyed outside of their effective range by placing HVAR rocket near them.

I have just played enough ground and air units in GRB to understand that air will always be unbalanced against ground units in general, especially against tanks that have no way to defend/fight them.

353

Not a thing that happens. Let’s not make up fake scenarios. Do this again and you’ll be ignored and branded.

To fix your cas problem? ??

Not how the game works. Not how logic works. Not how anything works.

If the spaa stands still, doesn’t move, and the cas pilot is a top 0.1% player, sure. Literally remove either of these factors and that hvar isnt hitting.

354

We can always make a custom battle and I can show it to You.

Just because it rarely happens doesn’t mean it is a fake scenario.

Just because You make it happen rarely doesn’t mean that the problem doesn’t exist. It still exists.

What can nashorn do against an aircraft? We can even have an ait unit that costs 2000 SP, it doesn’t change that nashorn still won’t be able to do anything about that air unit.

If Your solution is just to make problems occur less, then it is not a solution.

355

Remember what I said about fake scenarios that dont actually happen, and now your evidence for this happening in real games is you making up a fake scenario in a custom game thats a 1v1, where I’d still just .50 cal you down before you got near me?

Literally nobody would spawn CAS at 3000sp. Literally nobody. So no, the “”“problem”“” wouldn’t exist anymore.

This is a team game. I suggest you figure that out. People who play RTS games don’t whine and cry when their ground units get bombed by air units because they themselves didn’t choose to build AA or other planes or any other counters. You’re going to try to make the argument that this scenario I’m bringing up is a 1v1 in a rts, but the same applies here. This is a team game. The game is built for you to work with your team to counter all threats. You can’t kill a Maus in a XM800T either but you aren’t on here whining about that, are you? CAS is not inherently unbalanced. The constraints placed upon it need tightening and adjustment. Simple.

356

So should I do it in battle? If I do it will You be able to admit that it is not fake or will You try to find another explanation?

We can go with an argument that it is a team game.

So what is the point of having B.R. on tanks? Why Maus is not 1.0? Sure somebody from a team could spawn a plane and bomb it, right?

Sorry but the “team” argument can be used to whatever balance issue people have.

357

It doesn’t happen doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. It means it’s not a real thing that actual people deal with. You doing it does not disprove this! You also wouldn’t be able to do it to anyone that isn’t asleep while playing! 1 .50 cal on your roof is enough to deter reserve planes…

I’m branding you as a permanent troll to be ignored with this ignorant drivel you just made me read. Don’t bother replying.

358

If planes comes from an angle that .50 cal can shoot at, sure.

Sure, remember about “team” argument in any scenario that You think that something is ubnalanced in the game ;).

Have a nice day/night!

359

Should have listened.

360

That’s just it though, the entire SP system does not really “work” for CAS. It renders it a half-baked killstreak powerup as well as its best counter of other planes.

I’d argue otherwise, which is why instead of “just nerf CAS/gib TO mode” my default stance has been “(re)buff the SPAA so they aren’t garbage and are as easy to effectively use to delete planes as killing any tank with another tank is.”

I say that such corrections simply need to happen. Otherwise the Maus will remain “unbalanceable,” because the things that should damn well murder it easily, especially stuff from its own era, currently cannot effectively do so.

Buff the counters, let the stats drop, then the BR drops like a stone along with it. Simple. Ends the pissing war on the topic for good.

His “CAS problem” is built around the idea that a tank cannot 1v1 a plane while it sits in an open field. Seriously man, ignore the guy if you value your sanity, he’s beyond all reason.

361

This is besides the point. He tried making it out like CAS was inherently a problem just by existing even if it was made to be practically impossible to actually spawn in and use.

Which aren’t and to what

Are you the guy that once said the gepard types at 8.3 should be buffed to the extreme despite them already being overpowered? Or was that another guy

362

I mean I have repeatedly suggested undoing the nerfs on SPAAG’s antitank ability globally. Including but not limited to the following ones which would affect the 35mm Oerlikons specifically:

  • APDS postpen rebuffs for all calibers
  • Removal of the shell shattered mechanic
  • Allowing all SPAAGs to load as much APDS/APFSDS as they want
  • Adding any and all missing anti-tank or anti-air rounds for all SPAAGs (such as FAPDS on the Oerlikons).
  • Removing artificial penetration nerfs on autocannon APCR and APDS globally.

So if you’re thinking those, then yes I am the same guy. The goal is to buff SPAAG so the people whining about CAS have no excuse left to whine. If they keep trying to whine they just humiliate themselves just like the “but muh Tiger” crowd did years ago and occasionally still does before being laughed out of the room. THAT is how you kill an ideological argument - you “Make Their Whining Their Own Damn Fault,” so to speak.

All the SPAAGs lacking radar units mainly. It takes dozens of games to begin learning the gun lead and that’s IF you get cooperative pilots flying nice and straight.

Hence why I proposed to give all ones without radar a short-range lead indicator mechanic. Stock crews get one out from 0-1000m. Aced crews with maxed out Rangefinding and Leadership get up to 1600m. The game would now tell people where to shoot.

This change would ideally be granted globally to all tank-mounted MGs, all SPAAGs, all Heavy Flak TD vehicles such as the FlakBus and VFW, and all SPHs that get HE-VT rounds.

Again, empowering the counters to make the mere concept of continuing to complain about “CAS OP” look infantile. Same philosophy of “make their whining their own damn fault.” They can either 1) use the buffed counters and cease screaming 2) refuse to use them but lose their excuse to complain so they force themselves to shut up 3) try to complain but get laughed out of the room by everyone using the buffed counters successfully or 4) leave WT for good.

363

Yeah so you’re not very reasonable either. I don’t really care to have a conversation with somebody who thinks the ideal solution is to make the game really unplayable just to prove some point.

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