Well, first off, it’s not technically unbalanced. Most everything with a gun that can’t pen it has the mobility to easily avoid it, but again, think what you like about how balance works. Secondly, there are A TON of things that you don’t usually want to pick a fight with that are perfectly fine at their BR, for instance the IS3. Pretty much regardless of the vehicle I’m playing I just avoid it unless I’m already flanking or can flank it easily and have a certain kill. And true enough on Scimitars comment that some vehicles just don’t run that well, but most of those, for example, the tog, have either enough armor or enough firepower to be able to tank a hit or disable the thing quickly. We consider things like the Jagtiger, a similarly impenetrable vehicle frontally that in the right hands is a nuke printer to be perfectly balanced, and they have the same flanker vulnerability. I’m not proposing that the Maus just go down to 7.0/7.3 as is, either. I literally said like 20 posts ago that that would be combined preferably with some rebalancing of HEAT, HESH, the APHE post-pen spall, etc. I too disagree with the Maus going down in BR currently, it would be more than a little dangerous, but combined with the aforementioned adjustments it would probably be fine, and just adding another rolling brick at 7.0/7.3.
yea nah thats exactly what balance is. a rock paper scissors scenario of fast things cant pen it but the slower easier targets can.
these are needed no matter the BR and vehicles you want to specifically scrutinise.
APHE overperforms, early APDS and APCR/HVAP underperform because they are all modelled around one of the worst examples of those shells, HEAT ruins armour metas but many vehicles with it are incapable of tolerating higher BRs, HESH flat out doesnt work most the time even with “fixes” and is extremely lowballed in its armour defeating capacity.
There isnt a single vehicle that doesnt benefit or suffer greatly from how poorly a lot of ordinance is done.
Well that’s why I said technically yes, but, keep in mind, most of the slower “easier targets” are also the ones more heavily armored with bigger guns.
Pretty much exactly what I mean. The HE filler on APHE does overperform a lot, and on the biggest examples like the Tiger 2? It’s not even necessary that it overperform for the thing to do well. It’s already amazing. And yeah, all of the sabot rounds and most dedicated AP rounds SEVERELY underperform on post-pen, and again you got exactly my problem with HEAT. It’s really good as a tool to disable super heavily armored stuff like the Maus, T58, etc. because it’s less vulnerable to volumetric, has high pen, and also takes some skill to play well, hence the reason I love the M51, but currently the internal damage is at the very least super inconsistent, if it was even consistently bad I could play it better but I can’t trust if it’ll overpressure, crew wipe, or just do the equivalent of poking the thing with a stick and like taking out one crew member or something equally dumb. And yeah there’s not really anything that doesn’t get affected by this, even if it’s something where it’s round it fine but it gets screwed over by constantly facing stuff with seriously overperforming ammo.
depends. theres some heavies with really trash guns for their BR (and abhorrent armour for it too) all over the place. Churchill mkVII being the same BR as a panther is a pretty good example of that.
Maus despite the rather extreme uptiers fares decently well. you get teammates with leo a1a1 and turm 3 to back you up, but you are facing olifant/centurions and sheridans quite often who will make quick work of you if they are even slightly competent.
imagine how nice it would be to never be cupola spammed by SPAA ever again. sheer bliss it would be, especially for the m48/m60 with that stupendously large “shoot me here” sign for all the gepard sweatlords
What I say should happen with the Maus mostly varies on what situation it’s in at the time of a BR change. If it’s current, I say downtier it because making 90% of a single players games is worse in my view than making maybe 10% of any random players games worse, and in a way they can, usually, counter. Most of those really bad vehicles need rebalancing of their own. If it happens along with ammo rebalancing, potentially even better and same with a change to the battle rating system. It could also potentially be much worse though if rounds get rebalanced, probably not necessary at all depending on what exactly happens. Also I wouldn’t really say teammates “back you up” that much, if they kill anybody shooting you it’s a 99% chance they weren’t even considering that you might’ve died. It could go either way on that count.
Oh yeah, especially with all that stuff in the BR range with cupolas the size of the empire state building that’d be a lifesaver. Round modification combined with some mods to the way AA autocannons work to help deal with CAS better and it would be SO much better to play that general range of vehicles.
from last months stats it certainly seems to do well by itself. However suffers from the standard pitfall that german vehicles always do, your team is really crap for PTFO, lots of frags but very few caps.
I love playing tiger 2, its an easy 7.0-7.3 tank at 6.7 but its sometimes absolutely awful to play as you are alone all the time. all your teammates are fodder to the inferior but same BR pershings.
The german tanks from low tier all the way up to top tier are all (bar luchs or other meme vehicles) BR defining in overall dominance of the battlefield, I trashtalk the teams all the time but it is truly fascinating to watch so many notably undertiered tanks still get sealclubbed day in day out.
just to show im not pulling that out of my backside heres my overall stats (ruined by noob me) and recent stats in the vehicle
If SPAAs were forced to just be SPAAs, 4.0-10.0 would become a much less toxic place tbh. I think we all have a specific SPAA we have a major vendetta against
How does avoiding “solve” the inbalance of not being able to fight it even from the rear? What if the Maus simply camps a capture point? What then? Im guessing next excuse is call CAS and you can’t expect that to be some catch all solution for any overpowered tank
IS-3 has like half the armor if that, Maus’s level of armor versus conventional ammo far surpasses everything else at this br
How is a tog going to do either of those? It’s going to die once the 128mm hits it once and it cant pen the maus anywhere on any side
They are NOT the same thing. Jagdtiger is both turretless AND has way weaker armor even considering the lower BR
Those changes would do nothing to balance out the maus
Oh how nice, I manage to have a sane and pleasant conversation with one person and then it goes back to this. Anyway,
for the second time, I said technically for a good reason.
Numbers don’t matter when you can’t pen either one, though yes the IS3 side armor is a good deal thinner, but similarly impenetrable to guns like the 76 unless you aim really precisely.
Well it doesn’t necessarily die, it is capable of tanking the round but I was using it purely for example as to a tank that he mentioned that was slow and had decent armor but not great against the 128. One key factor, there’s a solid chance you find a Maus while it’s reloading and in that case it’s reasonably easy to disable the guns/tracks.
Again, no the numbers aren’t the same, and yes flankers are deadlier to the Jagtiger, but again, frontally in terms of penetration chance, they are pretty similar if the Jag is hull down.
Seriously? Making stuff like HEAT, the biggest threat to the Maus, BETTER, wouldn’t change the balance at all? If you’re gonna continue to make claims like this I’m just ignoring you because of how useless it becomes to argue with you. I also literally said that I didn’t want the Maus going down in BR unless there was an accompanying change like a BR makeover or ammunition rebalance.
I didn’t do anything negative to you.
Then whats your point
You CAN pen the IS-3 in a significant amount of things ESPECIALLY if you flank, that can’t even pen the maus in the direct rear
AND the front armor? The UFP is barely thick enough to bounce a lot of rounds at this br so even a tiny bit of unangling turns it green, plus the driver port and turret roof are always available too. The maus has no real weakspots to a ton of tanks it sees even right now.
No thats the thing, if you flank a maus in a 76mm sherman literally nothing will happen you still cant kill it, but if you flank an IS-3 you can literally 1 tap it instantly through the side armor. This is a massive difference.
You’re going to die everytime. It’s 128mm APHE. It will overpressure you if nothing else
You can’t rely on this as one of the only defenses against a maus
Thats not the problem with maus, the problem with maus is what I’ve been saying this entire time, its so armored you can’t even flank it. You are just immune in Maus versus a substantial amount of conventional ammo tanks
No… heat vehicles can already kill maus, making heat better only helps vehicles that can already kill maus.
then don’t, do you not think I think the exact same of you? You don’t even get the problem that I’m explaining
I’m also not being rude to you but you are being toxic back, fix your attitude, just cause we disagree does not mean you need to be like that.
Dude, the Maus can outangle almost everything it fights, outside of some gimmicky HE slingers and 8.7 rounds
And the Maus, like any tank, plane or heli should struggle in an uptier
The argument to buff any vehicle because it struggles in an uptier is just dumb and doesn’t work
I could apply that to literally anything, even most overpowered vehicles using that logic
The Maus is fine where it is
Many vehicles at its br struggle to penetrate it effectively and even a good many 8.3/8.7s can get outangled by a Maus
And you want it to face 7.0 tanks
On the regular
Okay whatever. Sure, it’s fine at 7.7 and can totally compete at 8.7 and does fine for anybody. I give up. It’s nearly midnight, we’re collectively responsible for over half of this threads activity and I expect we’re all tired. If you have an issue with ammo rebalancing I’ll probably create a separate thread tomorrow.
Fair enough, I don’t have the best track record when it comes to polite responses when somebody’s annoying me. Sorry if I said anything hurtful. I also do this thing that drives me crazy too when I’m being more aggressively attacked where I’m stubborn beyond belief and won’t give any ground, but when it’s one or two people who are also willing to agree with my own points and still make their own I’m a lot better. This community generally worsens itself because one person’s toxic, somebody else and probably multiple others who normally aren’t respond and accidentally are as well. Again, sorry if I took it too far. I’m just opinionated. We all have points here.
My recommendation is to get more experience in the Maus and other vehicles around the br first
You’ll see what we were talking about eventually
I do see what you’re talking about, it is capable of competing and I just really did NOT want to admit it, I just find it to be a lot more finicky and even if it really isn’t that bad, it seems to be that bad to me as somebody who plays A LOT of the really heavily armored completely immobile tanks.
The Maus is only “strong” against stuff in the 5.7-7.0 range because every. single. weapon. type. which should easily slaughter the thing has been the subject of one or more nerfs to appease some totally different faction in the game’s playerbase.
APCR got nerfed after the American CBT, and several more times since the initial catastrophic one. The bulk of people screaming were Russian tank mains - the Maus was an unintended beneficiary.
APDS got nerfed repeatedly over the years, again due mainly to Russian tank mains using the likes of T-54/IS-3/IS-4M/IS-6/T-10A. The Maus was an unintended beneficiary.
HEAT and HEATFS got nerfed due entirely to whales in the IS-6 screaming their angled armor was penetrated by something. The Maus was an unintended beneficiary.
HESH got nerfed also due to the same whales in their IS-6s one patch after HEAT got butchered. The Maus was an unintended beneficiary.
Big HE got obliterated very early in the game’s life, then overpressure briefly restored its anti-armor potency, then screaming from various folk in the playerbase led to overpressure being rendered an inconsistent mess at best. The Maus was an unintended beneficiary, though its currently bugged due to overpressure triggering on the hull roof radiators despite internal armor plates existing in its damage model.
CAS has been one of the most-contentious subjects in the entire game. It’s been nerfed more times than probably anyone can count. But again each and every single time, the Maus has been an unintended beneficiary.
Thus I say why not undo most or all of those, watch people realize many things that used to “shell shattered” on the Maus suddenly work properly, and then observe its stats plummet, followed by its BR?
Sure if we don’t take into consideration that we play combined games and planes from very early B.R. can just destroy it for a price of capping a zone.
No matter at what B.R. You put it, things like Maus are still going to be eaisly destroyed.
Things like Maus will never suit WarThunder gameplay meta, no matter what You will do about it.
You can buff all of these and there would still be a high % of vehicles that can do nothing to a maus because they only use aphe… even a buffed apcr wouldnt fix this problem
CAS itself is not unbalanced - the concept of it being locked behind SP walls as a “powerup” is.
Indeed - empower the counter to any “problem” vehicle or mechanic and then expect the players doing the complaining to solve their problem themselves. If they don’t, it’s no longer the game’s fault, but their own.
Yeah the kill cam never made sense to me outside Arcade mode. But the blasted thing is even in Simulator.
Making Server Replays less clunky to access would help significantly with this issue.
“The community” is a schizophrenic mess, with various factions within it each wanting often polar-opposite things. The company tried to please everybody, but that just leaves nobody satisfied.
I guess the old saying from a game dev of “people have a tendency to optimize the fun out of a game” applies well here.
Just over half the community wanted APHE made more realistic, and just under half were pearl-clutching at the thought of not guaranteed one-tapping everything with it.
Truth be told I don’t even know why so many people conflate “frontally impenetrable” and “overpowered.”
Though admittedly almost every single means that should annihilate the Maus over the years has been repeatedly butchered, making the thing appear tankier than it actually should be.
Of course it is unbalanced.
In most cases ground units can do nothing about it, meaning that it is unbalanced. If when playing tank the only thing You can do is die and spawn in something else or not play the tank in first place it means that there is unbalance.
Not how that works