Must be the chad in you 😆
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You’re using the comparably weak 76mm in a 6.0 uptier as a metric here. The way you’re supposed to get around it’s weak performance is by using your stabilizer in a flank/brawling fashion, ensuring that you get accurate shots on your enemies weakpoints while they’re still trying to level the gun off (Or using your Hellcat’s absurd speed to get around your enemies to get flank shots). Trying to snipe at the strongest armor of tanks in an uptier is a bit like trying to play a T-34-85 as a hull down sniper, of course you’re going to run into problems.
Also, said armor profile is very similar on standard Panthers like the D as low as 5.3, and much better on tanks like the Panther F and Tiger E at 6.0. And why are you relying on certain tanks fumbling their shots? That’s not a good bet, and your issues fighting apparently more skilled Cent players kinda proves it.
Also, standard 90mm M82 shot works just fine against the Cent 1, which is available on the standard M36 and M36B, as well as the T26/M4 at 6.0. Which can pen the entire LFP and the vast majority of the turret front at 500m. Far better than it’s chances against a Panther or a hulldown Tiger.
I wasn’t using it alone as a metric. I was primarily responding to the jab at me for being an American main when America doesn’t have anything that is particularly strong to deal with vehicles such as these. The 90mm is absolutely trash unless you have HEAT. They bounce even more than the solid shot AP on the Cent. HEAT is nice but the long reload time, the inconsistency of damage, and the fact that the vehicles that use them have no armor.
Yes, you are right that America does have theoretical advantages here. But they no longer translate to advantages in practice because of decisions by Gaijin. Map design is a big element as the game has basically done away with many of the strong flanking positions that fast tanks could take advantage of. Volumetric and traction changes also had a very noticeable affect. Further, unlike other vehicles which the 76mm and 90mm US tanks previously faced, the Centurion has built in responses to flanking that medium and heavy Russian and German tanks do not have. It is more responsive and can reverse very quickly for a heavy tank, if you add bushes to the turret taking out the Centurion presents a big issue for most, if not all US tanks at 6.0 and below, and the sides of the centurion also make angling the hull armor feasible.
Even if that were true, the M36s lack all the other factors that make the Cent 1 a great tank, with few redeeming ones.
Fair. It may just be that American vehicles around this range should get a BR reduction, or they should buff the 90mm.
It isn’t. Specially not now since it has received lots of smaller and bigger buffs. And it absolutely does not bounce more than 17 pounder AP (unless you’re using T33 APBC, which I will agree is shit).
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Fastest way to kill your centurion in my book.
Just out of curiosity, what made you decide to pick on centurion mk1?
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It didn’t get moved up with the other strong tanks which formerly had concurrent BRs, and I’m tired of seeing them in 5.0 games. Plus the Jumbo 76 sits at 6.3 so there’s that.
Yet then cent mk. 1 is effectively your worst tank in a 6.3 lineup.
It was next to unplayable at 6.0 before the changes and was barely playable after.
Remember the UK gets no APHE and has a 99% chance of sell-shatter at those BRs.
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So its either the best and only tank in a 6.0 lineup which you say isnt that great anyway or the worst tank in a 6.3 line-up where Britain has a much fuller line-up?
APHE is only good if you have the pentration
While M82 shot may somewhat lack flat pen compared to contemporaries, what it’s rather good at is angled pen. This is why it can easily go through, say, the LFP of a Centurion at just about any range, while the 76mm cannot. It’s also why Tigers cannot angle against it like they can the 76mm. It’s a better round for sure, it just requires careful shot selection to make it work.
I far prefer to use M82 over the HEATFS shells where possible, even on highly BR’d tanks like the M48s, as the post pen damage is far greater and less likely to troll me me doing insignificant damage and allowing my victim to turn around and onetap me. But that’s just personal preference.
Which is why they’re 0.7 and 0.3 BR below it, respectibly. And personally I’d prefer the 90mm APHE and HEATFS rounds over the 17 pounder AP and sabot most of the time. .50 cal is nice too. As is the mobility, which isn’t exceptional but is a damn sight faster than the Cent. 5 crew can save you against smaller guns or misplaced solid shot occasionally too. The Cent is overall a better vehicle, no question, which is why it’s at a higher BR. It’s also comparing two tanks with wildly different playstyles, which is an apples to oranges comparison at the best of times.
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If you have the Black Prince you have an ok tank to go with it.
my dear, you have a HESH (does not work) vehicle or another shell-shatter tank.
UK 6.0-6.7 GRB is their worst BRs. Sending anything up and well they aren’t playable in that BR range. on BR and lower is the only time you aren’t the worst vehicle on your team.
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So what happens when you see them in 6 to 7, dont forget if you see them in a 5.0, there is only 4 tanks at that BR
As it stands the US 90 mm is arguably a bit better than the Panther’s 75 mm. For the last couple of months it has received consistent buffs such as being more accurate, M82 having less drag and higher velocity. It’s pretty nice.
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You can’t be serious… there’s no way anyone could possibly believe that.
Relative to their competition (i.e. their effectiveness against the amount of armor it has to penetrate) it’s no contest- the 75mm is better unless you’re factoring in HEAT, but the HEAT has a slower velocity and higher arc.
Objectively I’d still give an edge to the 75mm. A 75mm on an m36 chassis would do better than the 90mm.
Yes, I do believe it.
- All M82 now has a muzzle velocity of at least 853.44 m/s. Early M82 with 813 m/s muzzle velocity no longer exists;
- 90 mm M3 cannon itself has been buffed from 0.075° to 0.027° maximum dispersion (granted, the Panther’s 75 mm did as well);
- M82 itself has received substantially reduced drag. After 500 meters, the flat penetration equalizes with Pzgr.39/42 (both 173 mm);
- Due to the higher caliber, M82 has better performance against angled armor due to overmatching and lower ricochet chances.
A lot of math with lots of information
Before we start, all weight, velocity, etc values are from datamines. That’s why I know the velocity of M82 is 853.44 rather than just 853 m/s.
Flat pen of M82 at point blank, using the calculator available on the WarThunder wiki.
Same thing for Pzgr.39/42
Using this flat pen value and applying the slope effect of capped AP rounds weilds us this penetration graph, where X is degrees and Y is penetration in millimeters. I have coded a calculator that simply gives me these results after many hours of testing to see how slope modifiers work.
(Before you ask, the penetration values for 80+° are purely theoretical. That is to say, the slope modifiers exist for those angles, but the rounds are going to ricochet, specially Pzgr.39/42, not to mention that 90° pen is actually impossible, but again, the values for 90° pen are still there in Gaijin’s slope effect tables. The actual armor thickness that can be penetrated at those angles can be obtained by dividing the caliber of the projectile by 7, which means complete overmatching, and in this case means M82 will be superior).
As evident, higher angle leads to less of a pen advantage for Pzgr.39/42. By the time it reaches 45°, M82 takes the lead by a few decimal places. You can even test it yourself that both M82 and Pzgr.39/42 have 101 mm of penetration at 45°, and just about go through the UFP of a T-54 if shooting at 45°. Additionally, at 100 meters, Pzgr.39/42 will have 99 mm of pen at 45°, and M82 will have 100 mm.
As I stated previously, M82 received a drag buff. This can be easily noticed by looking at the wiki for any tank that utilizes M82, as the wiki hasn’t been updated from the old values. The wiki for the M36 says that penetration at 2 kilometers is 132 mm with M82, but in reality it’s 140 mm.
Here the stat card for M82 at 853.44 m/s.
Here the wiki penetration table for the M36B2 showing values before the drag buff.
As noted from the stat card, at 500 meters it reaches 173 mm of flat penetration. This coincides with Pzgr.39/42 on the Panther, and means that past this distance, M82 will actually have better flat penetration than the Pzgr.39/42. Roughly the same distance works for the 17 pounder as well, although it reaches 172 mm at 500 meters.
So the penetration advantage of Pzgr.39/42 is not only limited to under 45°, it also decreases with distance until 500 meters, where it has no advantage, and past 500 meters, M82 is simply better.
So in short:
- M82 now at the very least can be argued to have similar penetration to the Pzgr.39/42 and 17 pounder APCBC, although I personally would say it is better than both in penetration as angled armor generally matters more;
- M82 will have lower ricochet chances (as those also depend on caliber);
That and other advantages such as significantly better damage make me wholeheartedly believe that M82 is the superior round.
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That’s bizarre and doesn’t match up with my in-game experience at all. To the contrary, I feel like I have waaaaaayyyyyy less of a chance of bouncing with the 76mm than the 90mm. The mantlet of the Panther absolutely eats 90mm but struggles against the 76mm.
But to my other point, the german 75mm begins at 5.0 and there is absolutely nothing that it even has a chance of bouncing against if they aim center mass. The 90mm begins at 5.3 and struggles against just about everything with any kind of good sloped armor like T-34s and Panthers.
Which isnt to say that you arent theoretically correct- it just doesnt translate well because of where it is in the tech tree and other factors of the vehicles.
Every other shot shatters after gaijin obliterated APDS, so the gun is pretty mid. I’d rather have the Panther’s 75 for the postpen and reliability until Gaijin fixes APDS.
And what do you mean “trolly armour”? Bouncing someone’s UFP because you didn’t bother aiming isn’t trolly, the cent’s lower plate is weak, the turret has a huge weakspot in the angled roof being pennable by pretty much anything, the turret cheeks aren’t particularly thick for the BR. You just have to aim a bit, though maybe that’s where the German and Russian mains start to struggle.
I just want them to fix APDS…
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These buffs were somewhat recent.
For example, the “deletion” of early M82 with 813 m/s muzzle velocity happened with the infamous “October BR changes” last year, in which the M26s went to 6.7 and such.
The drag changes happened in update 2.31.1.36 in November 15th.
Assuming the “76 mm” means the 17 pounder, my two cents is that those aren’t “Panthers”, they are VK 30.02 (M)s, which have noticeably weaker mantlets for reasons I have already provided previously.
M82 has just an outright easier time against the T-34 UFP than Pzgr.39/42 so you’re simply incorrect there. At point blank both cannons have basically the same penetration past 45° (as seen by the graph), and as distance increases M82 will gain more of a flat pen advantage.
For example, the T-34’s UFP (which is 45 mm at 60°) will provide 117 mm of effective protection against M82 and 123 mm against Pzgr.39/42. At 2 km, that means M82 still cleaves through (140 mm of penetration) but Pzgr.39/42 can start to non pen since it has only 126 mm of penetration, so much so that at 61° the penetration and effective protection of the armor will match, while you need to hit the plate at 65° for that to happen with M82 at 2 km.
So, at point blank there is no perceivable difference, and as distance increases M82 will be able to penetrate the T-34 easier than Pzgr.39/42. There’s not much else to say there.
And yes, it can’t go through a Panther’s UFP, but neither can the Panther go through its own UFP.
Earlier you said the M36 (if HEAT-FS is ignored) would be better with the Panther’s cannon. How is that the case with everything I’ve said? The 75 mm is only “better” on the Panther specifically because the Panther doesn’t face many Panthers, so it has enough pen to go through most other tanks relatively easily, but an M36 with the Panther’s 75 mm wouldn’t actually get any benefit from it.
Also, little fun fact: M304 APCR (yes, APCR) can go through the UFP of a Panther at close range (up to 260 meters). This is something I’ve made use of myself.
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Are you saying to use apds in 6.3 and use solid in down tiers?
Uhhh-
I was trying to make a point on how the UK doesn’t have the best shell in the game.
and the 6.0 is the start of UK’s nightmares but thinking about it I can’t remember if the Cent mk 1 gets that affected shell type so I might have actually lied. I just remember seeing a lot os “Shell Shatter” around that point in my grind.