I don’t buy it. You said it yourself, excluding premiums. Which themselves can stack at least twice, be added or removed at will, and can in some cases even be linked like tech tree vehicles (F-89B/D, Calliope/M26 with rockets, etc). Is the implementation of a scroll bar in the UI really beyond Gaijin?
A well thought out tree. Though I think some of the premiums could be regular TT vehicles to help fill out BR areas etc.
PT-17 is mock up that is purely visual concept with zero changes and it is just a T-72M1 under the sheet metal/cardboard.
Other than lack of radar, Poprad would be superior due to it being also compatible with the Piorun missile that is far more flare resistant and having it’s range extended by 1 km. (5500 vs 6500)
So here is the first update to the TT and the OP was already updated (I left older images inside spoilers for sake of transparency).
The changes are:
Removed
-
Rosomak AMUR because there are solid sources showing that the turret was never completed
-
Zbik-P/R because it was shown that it didn’t exist and the photo of it is photoshop.
-
14TP as it was never completed
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SMK 120 RAK as it is useless in the game
Added
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T40/75 (67.627) as rank II premium
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Panther G “Pudel” as rank IV premium
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PZA Loara into SPAA line at rank V
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T-72M2E Moderna into 1st medium tank line at rank VI
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ZSU-23-4 “Donets” as rank VI SPAA
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Varta MRAP with SERDAR (Skif) into TD line at rank VI
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T-64BM2 into 2nd medium tank line at rank VII
Moved
-
LSPZRA Stalagmit to rank V
-
PASARS-16 to rank VI
-
WWO Wilk to rank VI
The changes are more changes in expanded CEE TT (with HU, RO, BG):
-
Added 39.M Csaba into LT line at rank I
-
Moved LT vz. 38 into 1st medium tank line
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Added Opel Blitz with 1939.M Gebaurer MG as rank I SPAA
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Moved 43.M Zrinyi II to rank II
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Added 42.M Toldi IIAK as rank II premium
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Moved 44.M Zrinyi I to rank III
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Moved 40.M Nimrod after BOV-3
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Added 2b9 AMB-1 as rank V premium
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Moved BWP-40 before BMP-23
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Added T-72 CURRUS into 1st MT line at rank VI
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Added KF41 into LT line at rank VI without Spikes and at rank VII with Spikes
Detailed descriptions of each new vehicles and new description of the HU, RO and BG vehicles:
New vehicles - standart CEE TT
T40/75 (67.627)
After WW2 Czechoslovakia decided to refurbish Pz. IV which were left there. Many of these were later sold to Syria. This particular T40/75 is special because it useses Stug IV hull which was remodeled to normal Pz. IV shape and it survived and is now in private collection. There are also other other possible “hybrids” for example Pz. IV auf J hull with auf B or C turret with long 75.
Panther G “Pudel”
1st of two Panther Gs captured during the Warsaw uprising. Tank was captured with only minor damage and after repairs it was put to use by the Home Army. It saw combat during the uprising but was damaged on August 11th and abandoned by the crew who destroyed it afterwards.
PZA Loara
Polish SPAA system which started development in 1984. The system is clearly inspired by Gepard SPAAs and uses the same armament. It is built on modified PT-91 chassis, it is equipped with 26 km range radar and thermal camera. Due to costs it wasn’t accepted for serial production.
T-72M2E Moderna
Is the first version of the Slovak T-72 modernisation attempt. This version is equipped with two 20 mm Oerlikon-Contraves instead of the 30 mm cannon on the later prototype.
ZSU-23-4 “Donets”
Ukrainian SPAA made from ZSU-23-4 turret which is also fitted with 4 Strela-10 missiles placed on a modified T-80 hull. [center]
This could be swapped for or folder with ZSU-23-4MP “Biala”
[/center]
Varta MRAP with SERDAR (Skif)
Ukrainian Varta MRAPs fitted with the Turkish SERDAR module. This vehicle configuration was originally intended for Morocco but was integrated into the Ukrainian army because of the war. The SERDAR turret is very modular and can fit either 2 Stugna-P (Skif) ATGMs and 2 MGs or it can fit 4 Stugna-P (Skif) ATGMs and 1 MG. The module is also equipped with thermal sight.
T-64BM2
Improved version of the T-64BM1 Bulat with improved ERA placement and most importantly thermal sight.
Expanded CEE TT (HU, RO, BG) vehicle descriptions
38.M Toldi I (B.20)
Hungarian light tank armed with 20 mm 36.M anti-tank rifle, 13mm of armor and max speed of 50 kph.
39.M Csaba
Hungarian WW2 armored car equipped with 20 mm Solothurn 36.M anti-tank rifle. The maximum speed was 65 kmph.
40.M Turan I
Hungarian medium tank developed from Czechoslovak T-21 in 1940s. It is armed with a 40 mm MÁVAG 41.M gun. The armor is at most 50 mm and top speed is 47.2 kph.
41.M Turan II
Improved version of Turan I. Modification includes a new turret with new 75 mm MÁVAG 41M L/25 gun, base armor stayed the same but was upgraded with spaced armor around the hull and turret. The top speed decreased due to increased weight to 43 kph.
Opel Blitz with 1939.M Gebaurer MG
Experimental 1939.M Gebaurer MG mounted on Opel Blitz. 1939.M Gebaurer MG was originally intended for aircraft use but was ultimately never adopted because of the light caliber. The MG had a very high ROF of 1800+ rdspm. For testing it was fitted onto an Opel Blitz truck.
Maresal M-02
Third prototype of WW2 Romanian tank destroyer project. It is based on modified T-60 chassis. The armor was up to 30 mm and it was armed with 122 mm M1904/30 howitzer which was able to fire new HEAT shells.
The M-00 prototype
SU-76/Pz. Kpfw. IV
Pz. Kpfw. IV tank which had modified turret which was armed with SU-76 gun.
42.M Toldi IIA
Hungarian light tank armed with 40 mm 37/42M gun, up to 33 mm of armor and max speed of 47 kph.
43.M Toldi III
42.M Toldi IIA with further armor upgrades but retaining the same armament.
43.M Zrinyi II
Version of Hungarian SPG/TD. It was armed with 105 mm howitzer Mávag 40/43.M (L 20,5) which can fire HEAT shells. It has good armor of up to 75mm and top speed of 40 kph.
Maresal M-04
Fifth prototype of WW2 Romanian tank destroyer project, based on a modified T-60 chassis. This prototype was armed with a new 75 mm M1943 Resita AT gun. Armor was slightly weaker with only 10-20 mm.
42.M Toldi IIAK
Version of 42.M Toldi II equipped with additional spaced armor.
43.M Turan III
Prototype of improved Turan II with improved armor and gun. The gun was 75 mm MÁVAG 43.Mand armor was increased to 85-95 mm. The gun was fitted into new larger turret.
44.M Tas
Project of Hungarian heavy/medium tank heavily inspired by the Panther tank. Works started in 1943. It was to be armed by 29/44M 80 mm L/58 gun but the testing showed some problems with the gun. So it was decided to use 75 mm MÁVAG 43.M, the armor was to be heavily sloped 75 mm on the hull and 100 mm on turret. Assembly of the 75 mm prototype started but wasn’t completed because the factory was bombed. There are two possibilities for in game implementation the 75 mm prototype or the intended version with the 80 mm.
40.M Nimrod
Hungarian anti-aircraft and fire support vehicle based on Toldi chassis, it received an enlarged open top turret which carried Bofors L60 40 mm cannon. In later stages of WW2 the units also received Nimród 42M Kerngranate which was HEAT grenade with 160 mm of pen. Making in-game Nimrod quite potent in anti-tank gameplay with one major downside which would be drastically lowered ROF when using these grenades.
44.M Zrinyi I
Version of Hungarian SPG/TD. This version was armed with a 75 mm MÁVAG 43.M gun. It has good armor of up to 75mm and top speed of 41 kph.
BMP-23
Bulgarian IFV based on 2S1 howitzer hull. The turret was armed with 2A14 23 mm cannon and Maljutka ATGMs. I propose possible modification upgrade to BMP-23A which has smoke granades and access to 9K111 Fagot ATGM
RN-94 OWS-25R
6x6 APC which was developed by Romania and Turkey in 1994. This prototype was armed with the OWS-25R turret which carries 25 mm Oerlikon cannon and two ATGMS either 2x Maljutka or 2x Spikes.
TR-77-580
Romanian version of T-55 which was elongated to fit 800 HP engine but engine development was never finished and so only 580 HP engine was used instead.
TR-85M1
Further development from the TR-77-580. The TR-85 has improved armor to around 300 mm which is further improved on the M1 version with Romanian ERA but the gun stayed the same but is able to fire new APFSDS rounds. Engine was also improved to 860 HP engine from Germany.
2b9 AMB-1
Hungarian project of developing self propelled platform for the 2b9 automatic grenade mortar. It uses a modified AMB-1 ambulance hull. The 2b9 82 mm has ROF of 120 and is able to fire special cumulative grenades with 100 mm of pen. The vehicle is also equipped with a laser range finder and the night vision device.
TR-125
Romanian prototype of their own domestically produced T-72, it uses a domestic “copy” of the standart 125 mm gun and has slightly improved armor. The hull was lengthened to accommodate better engine with 900 HP.
T-72 CURRUS
Hungarian prototype of improved T-72M1 which was fitted with new ERA improving its armor, and improved autoloader which has ROF of 10. The commander also has acces to passive night vision device
KF41
Hungarian version of KF41 Lynx. The IFV has enhanced protection with Strikeshield APS panels placed around the hull. The APS is capable of stopping ATGMs and has full 360 coverage. It is fitted with a manned turret which is armed with MK 30-2/ABM 30 mm cannon and both commander and gunner have access to thermals. The current version doesn´t have ATGMs installed but the turret is capable of fitting theoretically of up to 4 Spike LR ATGMS. Therefore I decided to suggest two different variants of the Lynx one without Spikes (like PUMA) and one with them.
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And I have different person telling me that PT-17 is real and that the PT-16 is fake. 🤷♂️ IDK I will leave both of these in until I find more concrete evidence.
The Zbik was removed since I learned it didn´t exist. I furher looked into the Grom/Piorun missiles and I don´t think they are that great so I am not fan of SPAA relying purely on those (as well as any other AA utilizing just light manpads missiles. Especially when it is really big truck such as Poprad.
I will be doing another TT version which will include every possible vehicle I can find, the Poprad will 100% be included there.
I will need to respectfully disagree. All these nations have large issues when building up their own TT. As I already mentioned while:
- Czechoslovakia is able to “easily” fillout rank 1 and then has some interesting vehicles around ranks 3 and 4 none of these unique vehicles are “mainline” medium tanks so this would need to be filled with copy paste vehicles from other nations. Even the top tier is very limited because right now best MBT would be T-72M4CZ or Leo 2A4
- Poland even has quite weak rank 1 and the mid ranks are basically non-existent. While Poland has sizable pool of vehicles at top tier it basically has just Type 93 on bigger truck and less missiles ready.
- Yugoslavia is perhaps the best allaround of the main 3. But still the Yugoslavian rank 1 would be very weak with no completly domestic vehicles. And again it also severly lacks at top tier capability by having just one MBT which could be called top tier.
All of these problems are just about the GF TT the AF TT states are in much much worse state.
I really don´t think that having these nation together in one TT would stifle the posibilitie for majority of member nations’ arsenals being added. We just would have thousands of T-54/55, BMP-1 modification which are largely unnecesary. Also mind you many of the TT suggsetions on the old forum had some vehicles wildly overtiered or undertiered.
To show you all of this I will make another version of the TT which will have all of these slight modification included.
There are some mistakes I want to correct here.
U.O.139 shouldn’t have the Yugoslav flag, rather it should have the flag of the Independent State of Croatia.
In the tree the M-55S is referred to as T-55S.
The M-320 had a 90mm gun, not 85mm.
Not sure what you mean by Hispano L/70, but the M55 cannons are based on the HS.804.
Additionally, this vehicle had an independent tracking computer that makes me dubious on the idea of this being a rank III vehicle.
Fake vehicle.
The Yugoslav M36 mods had their engine replaced with that of the T-55, which I find is worth mentioning.
Nora B-52 is a diverse family, it is worth specifying that this is the M-15 variant that you are presenting here.
The variant you show here has the 9M14-2T5 missiles, which have an extended range, improved speed, a tandem charge warhead and 1000mm penetration against RHA after destroying ERA. It also has 3rd gen thermals. Absolutely unsuited for 6.7.
There is no new powerpack in the M18A2 modernization.
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I don’t mind such a tree. But I also think that some countries can be represented with their own tree. Maybe not from the first rank. For example, there is a proposal on the forum for a Ukraine tree starting at rank 4. Something similar to Israel.
Good to see an update to the tech tree.
Nice see that you put more Hungarian vehicles I suggested.
I don’t understand why you said that the Turán II was upgraded with additional skirts like it was only just for the Turán II, the Turán I also received skirts and had solid and mesh ones.
Do you want to create more difference between the Turán I and II, because then it’s understandable.
Fun fact: The Zrínyi II picture you used was the pre series one which is different and I suspect it had 100mm of armor, see the gun mantlet and how much it sticks out or the bolts, totally different than what the production ones had.Did you notice something strange with this Zrínyi?
The Turán had two turrets the one in the picture you have is made out of wood and there was another which was made on the final Turán III. I don’t know why you put the mock-up picture of it. Also what do you mean by prototype of improved Turán II, a normal Turán was used. Or do you mean an improved prototype from the Turán II. And the big thing is the tank had 80 mm of armor, not ~90mm. I don’t know if you read about it in my previous comment.
Source for that: http://real-j.mtak.hu/11725/1/Haditechnika_2004.pdf at page 304.
The 2b9 amb at 7.3 isn’t too much? It has 270 m/s she’ll velocity, it is an open toped case mate. I know it has a laser rangefinder and high fire rate but it still has its limit.
Interesting thing you can add is a BMP with a BTR 80A turret or a T55a Currus upgraded with Hungarian ERA.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1066441900267151450/1081626529689247834/image.png
It has two types of ERA one smaller and one bigger. I made a topic about it where you will find info about it.
If you used my suggestion topics, I thank you for using it, it means a lot to see vehicles I researched added to tech trees.
This works, while poland has enough native and borrowed vehicles for naval, ground, and air combat to be its own native tech tree, every pole would just rather be under another tech tree rather than “ussr”
I will fix that
In the tree the M-55S is referred to as T-55S.
Thank you, I will fix the typo.
The M-320 had a 90mm gun, not 85mm.
Do you have more info about the M-320, M-636 and the M-628 projets? What was the inteded armament, armor and if there was prototype made? I have very little info about these from not that credible sources and I have feeling that the photos which should be of a different vehicles aree in fact photos of the same vehicle from different angles.
BOV-3
Not sure what you mean by Hispano L/70, but the M55 cannons are based on the HS.804.
Additionally, this vehicle had an independent tracking computer that makes me dubious on the idea of this being a rank III vehicle.
I couldn´t find any info stating that the computer had any automatic ranging capability. From what I could find it seem some kind of inertial and manul parameter imput computer, did it have laser rangefinder? From what I could find the system is less capable then the fire computer of the Falcon SPAA so I highly doubt that it would get any targeting help so I belive the BR is apropriate.
HS means Hispano-Suiza so I shortened it to just Hispano and the L/70 is the caliber lenght.
SO-75 Mk.III Mod.
Fake vehicle.
Thanks for the info I will fix that (remove it)
SO-90 M-36B1 Mod.
The Yugoslav M36 mods had their engine replaced with that of the T-55, which I find is worth mentioning.
Thank you for the info, I believe that coupled with the new HEAT round it can go up to 6.0. What do you think?
Nora B-52
Nora B-52 is a diverse family, it is worth specifying that this is the M-15 variant that you are presenting here.
Thank you for the clarification I will clarify it in the TT and in the post.
BOV-1
The variant you show here has the 9M14-2T5 missiles, which have an extended range, improved speed, a tandem charge warhead and 1000mm penetration against RHA after destroying ERA. It also has 3rd gen thermals. Absolutely unsuited for 6.7.
Thank you for the clarification. The original vehicle will stay but I will use different picture and I will post new version with the new missile. Does the version with newer missiles have new name?
M18A2
There is no new powerpack in the M18A2 modernization.
I found this which talks about new powerpack:
IMG
That and to help it at the higher BR.
Fun fact: The Zrínyi II picture you used was the pre series one which is different and I suspect it had 100mm of armor, see the gun mantlet and how much it sticks out or the bolts, totally different than what the production ones had.Did you notice something strange with this Zrínyi?
Honestly I don´t see it. So IDK
The Turán had two turrets the one in the picture you have is made out of wood and there was another which was made on the final Turán III. I don’t know why you put the mock-up picture of it. Also what do you mean by prototype of improved Turán II, a normal Turán was used. Or do you mean an improved prototype from the Turán II. And the big thing is the tank had 80 mm of armor, not ~90mm. I don’t know if you read about it in my previous comment.
Source for that: http://real-j.mtak.hu/11725/1/Haditechnika_2004.pdf at page 304.
It was clearer picture compared the other ones but I will fix that. I meant it as improvement from the Turán II. Looking into your source the table shows up to 95 mm of armor though.
The 2b9 amb at 7.3 isn’t too much? It has 270 m/s she’ll velocity, it is an open toped case mate. I know it has a laser rangefinder and high fire rate but it still has its limit.
I think the 7.3 would be fine the high ROF and LRF would make it quite effective in hitting roofs of enemy vehicles. Which I feel would make it quite good at that BR.
Interesting thing you can add is a BMP with a BTR 80A turret or a T55a Currus upgraded with Hungarian ERA.
It has two types of ERA one smaller and one bigger. I made a topic about it where you will find info about it.
I will think about that.
If you used my suggestion topics, I thank you for using it, it means a lot to see vehicles I researched added to tech trees.
I was just using you post here and some other sites on the internet. I will look into your topic though and look into the other vehicles to add and include especially in the full TT version witl all the modification.
Do you have any info about the KF41 and the Spike launchers? What is the situation?
I just want to say that the source I gave you says 80mm its just that the stat table is for what was planned, if you see the text beside the stat table it says it was upgraded from 50 to 80mm.
It was not 95mm.
I will try to research more about the KF-41 spike version, if I am right Hungary will have kf-41s with spikes.
Hungary bought spikes and on the KF-41 you can see the boxes where the spike missiles will go.
Isn´t it possible that the turret was 95mm and that the hull was just 80mm? Since the paragraph talks about the hull.
I will try to research more about the KF-41 spike version, if I am right Hungary will have kf-41s with spikes.
Hungary bought spikes and on the KF-41 you can see the boxes where the spike missiles will go.
So basically the same situation as with PUMA. Ok thanks.
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Sadly no. It is for frontal armor, both the Turret and the hull. I would like to have the Turán III with 95mm of armor but it did not have it. :(
OK thanks.
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I unfortunately cannot help you with the M-628, as there isn’t even a picture of the vehicle.
The M-320 and M-636 are two real vehicles that have pictures however. These tanks look very similar, so I highlighted some differences.
Assuming these are the pictures you are talking about I can definitely understand the confusion, but some differences can be seen.
In the first picture you can see some antennas that are missing on the second image.
There are also differences in the tracks, as the former has return rollers and the latter doesn’t. Additionally, you can count six roadwheels on the first vehicle and only five on the second. It could be that the last one is obscured due to the image angle, but I personally don’t believe this to be the case.
One last detail is that the front hull of the former vehicle is much more angular while the latter has a much more rounded hull.
I believe the first vehicle to be the M-320 due to some armor schematics that show an angled upper hull rather than a smooth and rounded one. The pictures I have linked here.
I will ask around for info regarding the J-171 computer as it does provide automatic tracking, but I don’t know of the ranging ability. Considering what you said about the Falcon I think it is a pretty fair argument to keep the BR of the vehicle lower. I guess that would mostly depend on how Gaijin would implement the vehicle.
I would definitely have to agree, it does increase the horsepower of the vehicles by 80hp.
The new BOV-1 modification that was originally shown in this post doesn’t have a new designation that I know of, but I think it would be fair to just call it the BOV-1 (2016),
I would argue that the intended old BOV-1 variant should still be put at a higher BR, as 6.7 is also where the Type-60 ATM sits, which is in almost all aspects (especially firepower) a much worse vehicle than the BOV-1.
I appear to stand corrected on this claim. I’ve never seen this picture before, so I’ll thank you for presenting it to me :D.
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Good job on your hard work putting this one together, i support this tree! Well done mate.
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So here is the secibd update to the TT and the OP was already updated (I left older images inside spoilers for sake of transparency).
The changes are:
Removed
- SO-75 Mk.III Mod. as it is fake vehicle
Added
- BOV-1 (2016) as rank VI TD before the Varta
Changed
- I made some slight BR adjustments and fixed mistypes and some factual infos.
New vehicles - standart CEE TT
BOV-1 (2016)
Serbian modernisation of Yugoslav ATGM carrier based on the BOV 4x4 chassis. It is armed with new 9M14-2T5 ATGMS with SACLOS guidenence and tandem warhead with 1000mm pen. Top speed stayed at 93,4 kph.
In the next update I will add expanded TT which will include all possible modifications and versions I can find.
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