I have a different opinion, I think that air spawn helps the SPAAS identifies their targets, otherwise you wouldn’t see a plane when its spawning.
We already talked about how fast FnF carriers can fire off their weapons. They spawn pretty close and with some altitude and can launch in like 10s after spawning.
If you want to prevent this you’ll have to spawn camp or just catch them when going back to rearm.
Good thing aircraft can easily counter SM3.
I think we can agree to disagree.
Having the option to fire right out of spawn doesn’t mean it’s a guarantee kill, even with the KH-38. This applies to all CAS aircraft. You have to wait for the right opportunity to launch them to maximize the change of getting kills. This is why you see most cas aircraft do 2-3 runs before re-arming.
Just because CAP can counter it doesn’t mean it should be the only way. Not only CAP costs 4-5x than spaa, you are essentially hoping that CAS aircraft don’t launch their munitions, once they do, there’s nothing you can do to counter it. In addition what if the enemy also has CAP? Okay now you have to attempt get past it to attack CAS aircraft. It’s going to end up being whoever has the most amount of aircraft on their side wins. You see how relying on a single way of countering CAS aircraft becomes a problem?
Disagree that the Kh25 (IR) is balanced compared to Kh38s? Or disagree that it won’t be broken at 12.0?
Nothing is a guarantee in this game, but considering how small the maps are it might be better to just launch off your stuff and go back to rearm, you won’t be losing that much time anyways.
AAs have issues dealing with FnF CAS starting from 9.7 all the way up to top tier. We need better AAs across the board throughout multiple BR ranges in order to restore any kind of balance regarding CAS vs AA.
Either way, I’d much rather have a subsonic bus with FnFs than something with crazy good FM along the way.
There’s a lot of ifs and buts but I like to look at it from a fair perspective (1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and such).
I disagree that SM3 should go to 12.0 with KH-38s removed as you wouldn’t accomplish much to either help the players on the ground or the plane itself.
Possibly but you would also be risking the enemies to gain more sp and spawning in CAP. The goal is to spawn in CAS asap because you would face the least amount of resistance.
This is kinda true. Up until 10.7, no nation has an effective way to deal with CAS but from 10.7 and on, only a select few can deal with them (excluding Kh38 slingers and maybe even the hammer). the 2S6, ITO and Pantsir.
The point of the statement you responded to is to show that CAP is the only way to counter the SM3. Where it’s not really the case for other CAS aircrafts such as Mavericks slingers. It’s to show how unbalanced Kh-38s are and the only way to take them out is to spend 500+ sp.
Because that’s just how it is. If there there was a limit to how many CAS/CAP aircraft you can bring, it would solve most problems with CAS. You will hardly see 1v1,2v2,3v3,etc because the fight is always unbalanced towards or against your favor.
You’re actually right on this. I’m looking at the statistics of the Kh25 in comparison to the Kh38 and from the looks of it, the Kh25 is a mini Kh38. It’s ΔV: 57.77 [m/s] slower, 32.96kg HE lighter, and no IOG (assuming the only different between the 25MTP and 25ML is the seeker).
However it’s still a replacement none the less which gives spaa more time to react even if it’s just seconds.
The elephant in the room is that high tier matches have become a hardcore/competitive gamemode. You need to consider your lineup, utilize all your options, incorporate foresight and anything less just means you will be farmed, it’s ‘git good or die’. It’s very much like Siege or any other competitive where you should be considering the composition of the enemy team(nations alone can say a lot) and the map e.g. 3 caps? Expect planes, ‘free’ caps? even more. Every bit of information provided to you is a tool, the statistics page and kill feed is a massive one, you can can instantly gauge your own teams composition and have a decent grasp of what the enemy will do. People with score spawn planes but people with 0 deaths do not, thus if you see them start dying in the kill feed/stats then you can expect a chance of ordinance rain this afternoon… or you to be spawn camped cuz lol team got farmed. GRB is undoubtedly plagued with it’s own balance issues and the ol classic GRB mode has gotten long in the tooth especially the maps; however that does not mean it’s unplayable either, far from it.
Considering that the anti-CAS rage has gone on since ages, since before we had KH-38, SU-34, ARH, Rafale, Gripen, D Mav’s, etc. it’s pretty obvious that Gaijin is well aware of the need for balance between airplanes and ground vehicles.
Now the critical question that stands up to circumstance is:
Can a player or team of players withstand an attempt by an equivalent to determine a match using air vehicles without relying on failings of the adversary, luck, drastic measures or considerable SP fortune?
From my experience: yes and I think if that wasn’t the case on some level Gaijin would’ve done something drastic long ago. Do I think CAS is too strong? Yes; however I do not support any solution that would be a mere ‘handout’ where CAS would cost be removed, stripped of good weapons, cost an ungodly sum of SP, etc. because it would be boring. Good solutions compliment the gameplay GRB already has instead of removing from it e.g. adding ammo crates to SPAA, even if it’s lowkey not enough when considering the amount of shots that SPAA can be forced to take between scout drones, evaded shots and ordinance.
Players need more opportunities for counterplay against CAS and one of the biggest limiting factors in those options is spawns and the maps. Spawn is just 1 or 2 points and the zones in which players can appear is small and makes them easy and predictable to target, since respawning is a huge aspect of any successful player/team in GRB. The maps are tiny and cramped and often any cover the urban maps provide is negated(more like inverted) by the massive amount of low altitude cover aircraft have to work with. The tiny maps also mean small area to search or to just lob ordinance into, making CAS jobs much easier. Ideally spawns should be a zone as big as spawn protection in which players can pick a point to spawn in; maps should be large and have a balance of cover to hide or reposition SPAA safe from mid map tanks without badly restricting the visible horizon.
That said it’s about time high tier GRB starts being handled with consideration to what it’s really about. In a gamemode and BR range so dependent on having a brain, a lineup and respawning it is one bad idea to bring none of those, the players are delusional to expect anything doing that and Gaijin needs to see and actualize a GRB where the latter 2 are paramount and not seemingly an afterthought.
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Or to have someone to shoot at because 1DL is going rampant with 11.7 premiums.
You give 2S6 way too much credit when it comes to shooting down aircraft. Something like A-10A that’s sitting at the same BR can easily outrange it.
We can’t agree on this one.
That’s like saying 2A7 is trash because you’ll often times find yourself in a 1v2/3 situation which you can’t win, or that something isn’t trash as it’d have others to protect it.
Gives them a few seconds more to react while pushing those weapons down on 11.0 vehicles, which they don’t deserve in the first place.
I still think that change would be a net negative to both the aircraft and ground units.
I think you spawn only the launcher and the remaining verhicles would be nearby the airbase.
the 2S6 is better at destroying tanks than AA, and its bad at destroying tanks
It has to be one of the most overhyped vehicles I’ve ever played.
Hitting a drone 8km away is hard, let alone a plane.
hitting the drone is itself hard, but the radar is so horrible that the drone can literally swirl around to cancel your lock. when it comes to aircraft, you practically aim manually.
to be fair, its pretty good close range or against tanks, unlike obese pantsir
Didn’t say to it needs to take down aircraft. Taking down mavericks, gbus, and subsonic agms it something that the 2S6 excels at. You will rarely see an A-10 launch a maverick >8km when there’s a 2S6 around because it’ll intercept it at ease. Sure other spaa can do that (maybe even better), but it usually comes at the cost of vulnerable to pop up attacks.
You gotta explain why it’s the case because I don’t know where you’re coming from. Mavericks cannot be used the same way as Kh38s and Hammers because they simply don’t have the speed. The only become effective when it’s employed in pop up attakcs but it comes at the cost of being vulnerable to spaa.
In ground, there are steps to make it where you can engage/disengage multiple targets. In the air it’s a different story. You will be spotted right now and there’s really nothing you can do about. You can run away/hide, but you’ll be allowing CAS to wreck havoc. That’s why I said it’ll hardly be a fair situation. The odds are more against you if you spawn in later
with how poorly gaijin has modeled ADATS 2s6 is much better at intercepting munitions than it, also due to how many ready to fire missiles 2s6 has the only western AA that is better for intercepts than it would have to be ITO90 (or something with proxy rounds if those fuse on missiles again)
Any AA that can’t take down aircraft of it’s tier is simply not enough and should change. Being relegated to shoot down ordnance is purely a defensive gameplay which doesn’t suit the PvP environment. Have fun doing nothing but shooting down ordnance, transforming into a literal bot along the way, which I guess is fun and engaging gameplay loop for some.
I already explained everything in other posts above.
To counter CAS properly you need to be able to shoot them down, shooting down missiles is just getting scraps.
Let’s also not pretend you need to come 3-4-5km away to use 65Ds effectively, as that simply isn’t true.
Until you get rushed by several people at once.
I have no idea why you even brought that up as we can run in a circle using the same logic.
Oh what about if you’re in a 1v2 ?
What about if it’s 2v2, 3v2, 2v4, 5v6, 7v5 ?
While thats certainly true it doesn’t rly help much if with most aa but 1 (yeah we know which one) there’s basically nothing you can do if he doesn’t fly straight like a complete bozo and gets within 9 km without firing his ordinance and still not maneuvering. ok maybe then i know where i need to look and buttonspam my radarlock into the sky to find his ordinance but if he needed to spawn at the airfield, accelerate and then climb for a minute he would either be much slower, or it would take you much longer until you are in these positions where you are at mach1+, able to see the whole battlefield and basically immediately spam fire all your ordinance, while having the speed to dodge everything and 0 risk from cap to even get there. What does it help if you know where he is as long as theres nothing you can do against it in most spaas?
And yes i know how to position and what to do so i dont get killed playing spaa. If hes not completely brainless he just ignores the spaa and fires at all the tanks of my team that are in strong positions controlling the map. It’s not like im gonna decide the battle on the ground capping two objectives in my flarakrad or my ito that can’t drive uphill.
Unfortunately that is what it comes down to. Spaa in top tier more commonly used for countering A2G munitions than planes. The Pantsir is a good example of that. At 10.7 the 2S6 can easily take down mavericks than the plane themselves which is why it’s used in that role.
I’m saying that they can’t be employed the same way as kh38s which is just flying at any altitude and pointing and clicking. Launching mavericks anything farther than 8km and that’s not either a low fly by or a popup attack is guaranteed way of getting it intercepted. It takes that long for them to reach the target.
The point is that your typical 1v1 will never happen and to justify bringing down the SM3 is foolish (with the Kh38) because planes can kill it is foolish. And it shows in the latest BR change. The F-15E and the SM3 are in the same BR.
Sadly that’s not the case with just top tier. I want to destroy aircraft with my AAs, not to target some barely visible radar contacts flying in a straight line. Fun difference between those two is really big and will be yet another reason why AAs aren’t really popular to use.
I haven’t said SM3 should be moved down in BR, I just argued it’s a pretty easy plane to counter if the enemies have any planes up.
To me, whole your comment is wrong!! I’m agree only one part: CAS is too strong.
Bigger maps doesn’t means CAS will be less effective, it’s quite opposite actually… We have big maps in game like Maginot line, fulda e.c.t but CAS have high and thermal vision, so they can see tanks from 15-20 km away, it doesn’t matter how big maps is. City maps provide defence against air to ground missiles, but imagine city map size of fulda and tell me honestly - would you play it?
My point is, only solution we have _ Tank only mode.
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It definitely does make it less effective, on some maps you can literally just pop up and know for certain that the entire team is within an easily observable area or cover because the map is just that tiny. No need for taking crucial seconds to scan around for targets or threats, its just all in that spot. On top of that you can easily lob bombs(dumb or gnss) and because the maps like operation metro(cramped) you know you are bound to hit someone.
You know what else they can provide defense against? Surface to air missiles. Take a map like advance to the rhine, everyones visible horizon is very limited on that map except people on top of rubble piles who stick out pretty obviously. Which means any approach with CAS can easily exploit these blind spots.
Maps like Fulda are the gold standard here because they combine these elements, they have buildings to hide behind, terrain to hide behind, trees and vegetation to offer concealment and don’t restrict your view of the sky heavily. They also don’t have everyone clumped together in 1 spawn or 1 tiny map like we see with variations of cargo port or north holland, which just leads to be targeted extremely easily and quickly; any anti-air blind spots are easier to exploit since you can approach position A from a blindspot while position B has the same problem.
Sure they can fly high then you become more obvious and also easier to target while limiting your agility in the sluggish thin air at those altitudes. If you only imagine CAS from the perspective of flying high and spamming FnF and it just automatically equating to racking up kills it’s just the tip of the iceberg, it’s the easiest to counter.
Hell no I’d probably ban it like I did Sweden.
There is plenty of better solutions when you consider them more carefully.
literally this, windex breath players think that larger maps are always the solution without ever considering the consequences of this. CAS more specifically the Su30 are far far more effective on the larger more open maps compared to the smaller city ones.