CAS problem

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
1024

I’d say it’s also the ease of use that make them flawed in the current state of the game. The fact their biggest counter from the ground is in a shape of LoS missiles, which we all know have some really big flaws that seriously limit the power of AAs.

I don’t know the specifics of 9X, but if it’s an IIR missile then flares as a mechanic should be reworked before it’s introduced.
On the other hand, IR + IOG guidance exists outside of just KH-38s.

I know and this is what I was trying to explain him. Asymmetrical balance is a thing in this game.

Why SM3 though ?

1025

Sadly tanks can’t fight against any CAS. Fixing this without TO isn’t possible.

30SM shouldn’t have KH-38 to begin with.

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1026

Because it’s 12.7 in GRB. It’ll be going against F-16C, F-15E, and other 12.7 aircrafts. It’s a death sentence if you spawn in the SM3 when there’s other aircrafts actively targeting you. But the reason why it’s 12.7, is solely because it has the Kh-38. If the Kh-38s get removed the BR will be most likely reduced to 11.3 or 11.7. If it gets a thermal variant of the Kh-29 or Kh-25 it would be a solid 12.0 CAS aircraft.

1027

Same thing would apply at 12.0 as it uses the same 10.0 airframe but has two IRCCM missiles. On such a bus I’d say 9M is infinitely better than R-73, especially in a GRB setting.

I wouldn’t like that as RU already has a couple of SUs at that BR.

I thought those came only as Laser or TV.

1028

At 12.0 you wouldn’t face a lot of Fox 3 slingers which imo, are a much bigger threat than fox 2. Fox 2s are mainly used for ambushing unaware enemies which both the r73 and aim9ms are good at.

That’s assuming nothing gets replaced if the kh38 gets removed. Even then they both will have two different playstyles as the SM3 is more orientated towards longer range launches where as the 25T/39 is a jack of all trades master of none

The one variants we have in game, yes. But there are thermal variants that exist IRL. I’m not too sure about the IR Kh29 as it’s only mentioned in the wiki but there’s good amount of information on the IR kh25.

I believe it has a 20km range which makes it a good 12.0 candidate.

1029

Sorry but I don’t think you really need ARHs on your 12.0 CAP to defeat what’s basically a 10.0 airframe.
That thing going against ARH fighters is pure filth if you ask me.

In my opinion the 30SM losing KH-38s would be a much better idea. Someone could spawn his SM3, launch his 4 missiles and either die or go rearm which would take much longer time due to it’s subsonic nature.

Also, air spawns being so close to the battlefield definitely increase the effectiveness of SM3, as otherwise it could be intercepted much easier, which could make it go down in BR with your treatment.

If it has the same seeker as other IR missiles it would mean it still can lock moving targets at 10km and above, which would upset many 11.0 players.

I’m a mainly tank player and FnF AGMs are frustrating at whatever BR you play. This is why I said their implementation is far from good.

1030

Fox 3s act as area denial which hinders a lot of CAS aircrafts from doing their jobs. They’ll be forced to hug the ground. This prevents any of them from gaining altitude to launch agms. In GRB, Fox 1s come into play when you catch someone off guard, it doesn’t matter if it’s R-73 and Aim-9m, both are employed the same way. Sure dogfights exists but it’s rare in this context.

There was no reason to add the Kh-38 and I haven’t seen any reasonable justification when there were more balanced options available. It doesn’t matter if it’ll take longer to re-arm or if the aircraft that carries is subsonic, whenever it is launched, there are little to no counter it. I still don’t understand why people fight tooth and nail for agms that they know themselves are overpowered.

This is exactly why there was an uproar when the A-10C was 11.3 in ARB. No aircraft could ever counter it. Like I said before, it didn’t matter if it was on a terrible platform, once launched, there’s little you could do to counter it.

Fortunately, it can be moved up in br where more planes are capable of countering it (imo it should be a bit higher) but you can’t say the same for aircraft that carries Kh-38s. They are already facing top tier Spaa and aircrafts. What’s moving it up going to do? You’ll still be facing spaa that has no way of countering it.

Yes it would but it can be said for almost all other CAS aircraft at that BR (there are some exceptions of course). The SM3 with 4 kh25 (IR) is much more balanced than it with 4 Kh38s.

1031

I have a different opinion, I think that air spawn helps the SPAAS identifies their targets, otherwise you wouldn’t see a plane when its spawning.

1032

We already talked about how fast FnF carriers can fire off their weapons. They spawn pretty close and with some altitude and can launch in like 10s after spawning.

If you want to prevent this you’ll have to spawn camp or just catch them when going back to rearm.

Good thing aircraft can easily counter SM3.

I think we can agree to disagree.

1033

Having the option to fire right out of spawn doesn’t mean it’s a guarantee kill, even with the KH-38. This applies to all CAS aircraft. You have to wait for the right opportunity to launch them to maximize the change of getting kills. This is why you see most cas aircraft do 2-3 runs before re-arming.

Just because CAP can counter it doesn’t mean it should be the only way. Not only CAP costs 4-5x than spaa, you are essentially hoping that CAS aircraft don’t launch their munitions, once they do, there’s nothing you can do to counter it. In addition what if the enemy also has CAP? Okay now you have to attempt get past it to attack CAS aircraft. It’s going to end up being whoever has the most amount of aircraft on their side wins. You see how relying on a single way of countering CAS aircraft becomes a problem?

Disagree that the Kh25 (IR) is balanced compared to Kh38s? Or disagree that it won’t be broken at 12.0?

1034

Nothing is a guarantee in this game, but considering how small the maps are it might be better to just launch off your stuff and go back to rearm, you won’t be losing that much time anyways.

AAs have issues dealing with FnF CAS starting from 9.7 all the way up to top tier. We need better AAs across the board throughout multiple BR ranges in order to restore any kind of balance regarding CAS vs AA.

Either way, I’d much rather have a subsonic bus with FnFs than something with crazy good FM along the way.

There’s a lot of ifs and buts but I like to look at it from a fair perspective (1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and such).

I disagree that SM3 should go to 12.0 with KH-38s removed as you wouldn’t accomplish much to either help the players on the ground or the plane itself.

1035

Possibly but you would also be risking the enemies to gain more sp and spawning in CAP. The goal is to spawn in CAS asap because you would face the least amount of resistance.

This is kinda true. Up until 10.7, no nation has an effective way to deal with CAS but from 10.7 and on, only a select few can deal with them (excluding Kh38 slingers and maybe even the hammer). the 2S6, ITO and Pantsir.

The point of the statement you responded to is to show that CAP is the only way to counter the SM3. Where it’s not really the case for other CAS aircrafts such as Mavericks slingers. It’s to show how unbalanced Kh-38s are and the only way to take them out is to spend 500+ sp.

Because that’s just how it is. If there there was a limit to how many CAS/CAP aircraft you can bring, it would solve most problems with CAS. You will hardly see 1v1,2v2,3v3,etc because the fight is always unbalanced towards or against your favor.

You’re actually right on this. I’m looking at the statistics of the Kh25 in comparison to the Kh38 and from the looks of it, the Kh25 is a mini Kh38. It’s ΔV: 57.77 [m/s] slower, 32.96kg HE lighter, and no IOG (assuming the only different between the 25MTP and 25ML is the seeker).

However it’s still a replacement none the less which gives spaa more time to react even if it’s just seconds.

1036

The elephant in the room is that high tier matches have become a hardcore/competitive gamemode. You need to consider your lineup, utilize all your options, incorporate foresight and anything less just means you will be farmed, it’s ‘git good or die’. It’s very much like Siege or any other competitive where you should be considering the composition of the enemy team(nations alone can say a lot) and the map e.g. 3 caps? Expect planes, ‘free’ caps? even more. Every bit of information provided to you is a tool, the statistics page and kill feed is a massive one, you can can instantly gauge your own teams composition and have a decent grasp of what the enemy will do. People with score spawn planes but people with 0 deaths do not, thus if you see them start dying in the kill feed/stats then you can expect a chance of ordinance rain this afternoon… or you to be spawn camped cuz lol team got farmed. GRB is undoubtedly plagued with it’s own balance issues and the ol classic GRB mode has gotten long in the tooth especially the maps; however that does not mean it’s unplayable either, far from it.

Considering that the anti-CAS rage has gone on since ages, since before we had KH-38, SU-34, ARH, Rafale, Gripen, D Mav’s, etc. it’s pretty obvious that Gaijin is well aware of the need for balance between airplanes and ground vehicles.

Now the critical question that stands up to circumstance is:
Can a player or team of players withstand an attempt by an equivalent to determine a match using air vehicles without relying on failings of the adversary, luck, drastic measures or considerable SP fortune?
From my experience: yes and I think if that wasn’t the case on some level Gaijin would’ve done something drastic long ago. Do I think CAS is too strong? Yes; however I do not support any solution that would be a mere ‘handout’ where CAS would cost be removed, stripped of good weapons, cost an ungodly sum of SP, etc. because it would be boring. Good solutions compliment the gameplay GRB already has instead of removing from it e.g. adding ammo crates to SPAA, even if it’s lowkey not enough when considering the amount of shots that SPAA can be forced to take between scout drones, evaded shots and ordinance.

Players need more opportunities for counterplay against CAS and one of the biggest limiting factors in those options is spawns and the maps. Spawn is just 1 or 2 points and the zones in which players can appear is small and makes them easy and predictable to target, since respawning is a huge aspect of any successful player/team in GRB. The maps are tiny and cramped and often any cover the urban maps provide is negated(more like inverted) by the massive amount of low altitude cover aircraft have to work with. The tiny maps also mean small area to search or to just lob ordinance into, making CAS jobs much easier. Ideally spawns should be a zone as big as spawn protection in which players can pick a point to spawn in; maps should be large and have a balance of cover to hide or reposition SPAA safe from mid map tanks without badly restricting the visible horizon.

That said it’s about time high tier GRB starts being handled with consideration to what it’s really about. In a gamemode and BR range so dependent on having a brain, a lineup and respawning it is one bad idea to bring none of those, the players are delusional to expect anything doing that and Gaijin needs to see and actualize a GRB where the latter 2 are paramount and not seemingly an afterthought.

1 Like
1037

Or to have someone to shoot at because 1DL is going rampant with 11.7 premiums.

You give 2S6 way too much credit when it comes to shooting down aircraft. Something like A-10A that’s sitting at the same BR can easily outrange it.

We can’t agree on this one.

That’s like saying 2A7 is trash because you’ll often times find yourself in a 1v2/3 situation which you can’t win, or that something isn’t trash as it’d have others to protect it.

Gives them a few seconds more to react while pushing those weapons down on 11.0 vehicles, which they don’t deserve in the first place.

I still think that change would be a net negative to both the aircraft and ground units.

1038

I think you spawn only the launcher and the remaining verhicles would be nearby the airbase.

1039

the 2S6 is better at destroying tanks than AA, and its bad at destroying tanks

1040

It has to be one of the most overhyped vehicles I’ve ever played.
Hitting a drone 8km away is hard, let alone a plane.

1041

hitting the drone is itself hard, but the radar is so horrible that the drone can literally swirl around to cancel your lock. when it comes to aircraft, you practically aim manually.
to be fair, its pretty good close range or against tanks, unlike obese pantsir

1042

Didn’t say to it needs to take down aircraft. Taking down mavericks, gbus, and subsonic agms it something that the 2S6 excels at. You will rarely see an A-10 launch a maverick >8km when there’s a 2S6 around because it’ll intercept it at ease. Sure other spaa can do that (maybe even better), but it usually comes at the cost of vulnerable to pop up attacks.

You gotta explain why it’s the case because I don’t know where you’re coming from. Mavericks cannot be used the same way as Kh38s and Hammers because they simply don’t have the speed. The only become effective when it’s employed in pop up attakcs but it comes at the cost of being vulnerable to spaa.

In ground, there are steps to make it where you can engage/disengage multiple targets. In the air it’s a different story. You will be spotted right now and there’s really nothing you can do about. You can run away/hide, but you’ll be allowing CAS to wreck havoc. That’s why I said it’ll hardly be a fair situation. The odds are more against you if you spawn in later

1043

with how poorly gaijin has modeled ADATS 2s6 is much better at intercepting munitions than it, also due to how many ready to fire missiles 2s6 has the only western AA that is better for intercepts than it would have to be ITO90 (or something with proxy rounds if those fuse on missiles again)